Chronic Lung Condition After 5 years of BRC

[dana]

'
Dana- It seems lazy to me, or even a little pissy - like that kid that we all seemed to know growing up who would always yell with the whiney voice - "PROVE IT!"'

Yes, I have known some people who were very sensitive to it (playa dust) but that manifested very quickly on exposure to it.

OK. Start there and extrapolate off of that.

If something posed a risk over the long term, would it make sense that some people would have an even stronger response that would show up much sooner?

And no, I'm not a troll. It's only my avatar that's an ogre.
"anti-burningman troll trying to stir up trouble"??? Who's alarmist?

By the way Geekster, you were that kid weren't you?

[Sensei]

... "anti-burningman troll trying to stir up trouble"??? Who's alarmist?

I think you'd be surprised at some of the strange characters (with even stranger motives) that show up here. Do a search on 'Black Rock Ric' sometime when you're bored.

[dana]

... "anti-burningman troll trying to stir up trouble"??? Who's alarmist?

I think you'd be surprised at some of the strange characters (with even stranger motives) that show up here. Do a search on 'Black Rock Ric' sometime when you're bored.

Yeah. Like any of us should be making claims to strict normalcy? We go to burning man don't we?

Wasn't that the guy that was goading 'Jaded Texas Redneck'?



OK, OK. I'll try to get around to digging up some cites for you guys. But one problem is that I'm kind of computer dumb. I don't know how to post links.

[geekster]

"OK. Start there and extrapolate off of that. "

Okay. Some people are sensitive to peanuts and many have died from the reaction. That doesn't mean peanuts are lethal to everyone.

Some people are allergic to pollen. It doesn't mean pollen is harmful.

Some people have reactions to antibiotics, that doesn't mean we should get rid of them or that their use is harmful.

100 people every day are killed in automobile accidents, yet we still drive.

NOBODY to my knowledge has EVER died from playa dust in the 21 years the event has been held there. SOME people have presented with what looked like an allergic reaction to it.

[geekster]

But you have given me a great idea for a project.

PLAYA DUST KILLS!

Because I absolutely guarantee that everyone exposed to it will die eventually, it is just a matter of time.

[dana]

"OK. Start there and extrapolate off of that. "

Okay. Some people are sensitive to peanuts and many have died from the reaction. That doesn't mean peanuts are lethal to everyone.

Some people are allergic to pollen. It doesn't mean pollen is harmful.

Some people have reactions to antibiotics, that doesn't mean we should get rid of them or that their use is harmful.

100 people every day are killed in automobile accidents, yet we still drive.

NOBODY to my knowledge has EVER died from playa dust in the 21 years the event has been held there. SOME people have presented with what looked like an allergic reaction to it.

"looked like an allergic reaction to it"
And you are a physician?

What was it about how they appeared that suggested an allergic reaction?
Do you have any studies done on these people that would substantiate your theory? Skin testing? Anything?

Please please PLEASE give me some cites!!! For God's Sake Man give me some cites!


OK. I'll stop being a goof for a sec here. Allergic reaction - not likely. Possible though. As I pointed out, it's a dry lake bed and may contain other tiny amounts of stuff that could potentially produce an even stronger inflammatory response. But the main component is a kind of silica - not in itself very allergenic. Silica does it's damage because your body doesn't have a good way to clear it from your lower airways.

And your other points are a little rambling and incoherant. I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to make. Did I ever say that someone has died from inhaling playa dust?

Seriously Geekster what do you want? Do you want me to say I'm making all of this stuff up? That there is no such class of respiratory illness known as pnuemoconioses (of which silicosis is one)? Do you want me to say that inhaled fine dusts present no health risks? Do you want me to admit that I have some perverse desire to scare people because I get some kind of kick out of that? Should I go on to say that the air we breathe, the water we drink, food we eat is all completely safe? Should I admit that anyone who claims otherwise is just another one of those crazy alarmist nut cases that are always going on about the dangers of fluoride in the water, the horrible dangers of vaccinations, mercury in your fillings or even micro-waving your food in plastic? Not to mention the damn satanic messages that are in our kid's music these days!!!

[Sensei]

Um, sure.

[Sensei]

Hey! Look over in the bar thread! Are those guys smoking pot over there? I'm outta here!

[dana]

CITES????
Please just shoot me! You have no idea what hell you want me to go into when you ask for those kinds of cites.

OK christmas comes early this year.

Go to Medscape, then medline.

"In vitro effects on macrophages induced by noncytotoxic doses of silica particles, possibly relevant to ambient exposure"
Environ. Res. 2004, 96(1):62-71
(Interesting study. Tried to "mimic" the levels of silica particles on high pollution days. Small doses caused definite inflammatory responses consistent with development of silicosis in macrophages - the kind of scavenging white cells down in your lungs.)

Wait there's more! (Now what would you pay?)
J Expo Anal. Environ. Epid. 1997 7(3):345-58

mmmmm yum! eat it up.

[Toolmaker]

Hey! Look over in the bar thread! Are those guys smoking pot over there? I'm outta here!

You got any cites for that?

[Sensei]

Why, yes. Yes, I do. Thank you for asking, btw.

See: Bar thread
Pages: 1 - 2434

[dana]

Sure you can make a rationalization of who should provide the cites for information that could be in question. Personally I think it makes more sense for the person who sheds doubt. Otherwise you run the risk of dumbing the discussion down too easily.

The perpetual student in me thinks that the Phds and assorted Academia of the world who publish in professional and academic journals would find your statement curious. Having written a number of papers for psychology classes, I was required to cite nearly every statement I put forth - and I didn't feel dumber for doing it.

But let's get back to that burr up the ass thing...

Well that might certainly be true in academia, but even there when you're talking to other experts you're not expected to prove all of the basic facts piece-meal. (It would be way too tedious.)
But here, it's just a discussion, not academia. I assume that most people take the fact that you shouldn't go around inhaling excessive amount of certain dusts, as common knowledge - like all the people wearing a mask while sanding drywall, handling cement or clay dust etc. I'm sure you've seen other people wearing masks during the dust storms on the playa. Do you think they're misinformed, simply paranoid, what?
It's not a matter of "feeling dumber". I wonder how many people who ask for cites apply that in an equal manner. If you read something on the eplaya that you like very much, but have never heard of before, do you ask for cites?




.... and about the burr. Did Iso visit you too? nnnngh ooooh ah!
Damn that's stimulating!!

[misfit]

has anyone brought up the fact that the symptons may not be from playa dust, but maybe from mold spores. not all burners rush home and clean their gear. some take it all and throw it in a dark, damp corner of the garage where it sits a year until the next burn.
sorry if it was mentioned already, but without pictures, it was impossible to read the whole thread....

[dana]

has anyone brought up the fact that the symptons may not be from playa dust, but maybe from mold spores. not all burners rush home and clean their gear. some take it all and throw it in a dark, damp corner of the garage where it sits a year until the next burn.
sorry if it was mentioned already, but without pictures, it was impossible to read the whole thread....

No, actually the question I was talking about is those huge dust storms on the playa rather than the much smaller amounts that come up from cleaning your gear.

But yeah, mold spores are nasty. Just did a little chainsaw work on some old moldy logs and a couple days later I was coughing up some chunks.
D'oh!!! No mask. ("its just a little bit of cutting.... I'm sure it won't hurt.")

[MikeVDS]

How about we ask these guys?

http://particlecamp.org/

[dana]

How about we ask these guys?

http://particlecamp.org/

Awesome find Mike!! You are the man!

I just sent them an email and will try to track down info and maybe take part in their project. I really would like to nail down this question of particle size, ambient dust load - all the basic questions that people consider when they evaluate the risk for development of silicosis.
(At first I thought it might be a joke, given the contentiousness that has cropped up in this thread, but the site looked legit although rather minimalist.)

And it appears that they may be addressing another part of the question which is that apparently the playa is a fairly hard surface right now with minimal dust (according to someone's post), but after all the people driving on it and tearing into the top bit it tends to loosen up and produce more dust during the week of bm.

[MikeVDS]

Didn't look like a joke to me. Their site looks nicely made but does lack content. As we all know though a website is usually just the reflection of one individual putting in that specific effort and has little to do with the overall camp or there efforts on other projects. They are on the registered camp list for BM07 and seem serious in that description as well.

[Nick Collide]

It's not a matter of "feeling dumber". I wonder how many people who ask for cites apply that in an equal manner. If you read something on the eplaya that you like very much, but have never heard of before, do you ask for cites?

I would probably ask them where they got their information so that I could go learn more about it. The difference between that and asking for cites is that in the first case, I am accepting your statements because I know nothing about the subject and want to learn more, and in the second, what you are saying contradicts what I believe I know about the subject and I want want to go learn more about it.... Wait! That sounds kinda like the same thing, huh? Maybe someone asking for a cite is really a compliment.

.... and about the burr. Did Iso visit you too? nnnngh ooooh ah! Damn that's stimulating!!

I thought Iso and I were working up to a cyber thing earlier, but the 'playa censors dropped the thread before it got out of hand. Left me in the lurch, so to speak. But MikeVDS' Lengend of Bloodninja thread picked up the slack.

Better hurry before they get to that one too...

[MikeVDS]

Being asked for cites is sometimes annoying but there is good reason. Generally people want to know where information comes from. There were some exact sounding statements made with authority and it's always nice to know where that comes from otherwise if it comes up in the future it becomes another one of those things where, "I heard around somewhere that it's really bad for you" and doesn't mean much, but if you say where it comes from then at least you can give someone who is really interested a starting point to find more information and exact details. I tend to be a very critical thinker. I often look for what could be wrong with statements and question the validity. A statement that is not concerning a serious topic that sounds right and has a cited source I'll take at face value unless I know otherwise; less than that and it probably just gets filtered out. If it's important to me I'll check the cite so I know I have the details straight. This is not really a place where much is formal so it can be a little annoying to be asked to cite, but sometimes when I'm questioned, it makes me question whether my filter was off for a bit since my statement is being questioned and I don't know any sources that can verify what I said.

[Generic Anonymity]

I suppose I'm dragging this subject up from the annals, but I found myself curious about it, so I read the posts... What seemed unclear in all this discussion to me is this - What makes up playa dust?

I went looking on google. Here are my findings.

Subject: [regionals-list] Forwarded from Boston List: What is in
Playa DUST?

What's in Playa Dust ??

Ever wondered what makes up the playa dust we breathe for a week every year?


I had the opportunity to have some sampled by a portable X-Ray
Fluorescence Analyzer. Here's a website if you are interested in
this nifty device: http://www.innovx.com/


We tested some dust from 2007 for the following elements:
Pb, Cr, Hg, Cd, Sb, Ti, Mn, Fe, Ni, Cu,Zn, Sn, Ag, As, Se, Ba, Co, Zr, Rb


The results:
Zr (Zirconium) 173ppm (that is parts per million)
Sr (Strontium) 270ppm
Rb (Rubidium) 53ppm
Th (thorium) 14ppm (radioactive, but don't worry, 14ppm is close to normal)
As (Arsenic) 21ppm
Zn (Zinc) 142ppm
Cu (Copper) 55ppm
Fe (Iron) 29,400ppm
Mn (Manganese) 559ppm


Make of it what you will!
-Sage

Of course, the problem with this tool is that it only looks for metals, and those metals only seem to account for a small percentage of the playa's makeup. It seems to be fairly accepted that other things involved in its composition are calcium, silicon, and boron.

Based on these findings, the most dangerous component of playa dust is probably the silicon. Which, I might note, was previously mentioned in the thread.

Also mentioned was possible damage by particles. So I went and looked that up. I found some information at this site - http://www.airnow.gov/index.cfm?action= ... p_particle. Although, this one's from the government, so I'm not sure if it's a trustworthy source.

I checked some postings on air quality, but the only city in Nevada that seems to be posting is Vegas. Incidentally, the air is rated "good," but it's not particularly useful in rating Gerlach or Black Rock City.

My personal conclusion is that it is worth it to wear a mask, particularly during dust storms. The possible complications of exposure may not be occurring for all people involved, but there is obviously still a risk. Plus, I think my mask will look cool.

[geekster]

I suppose I'm dragging this subject up from the annals

This is an annal retentive site.

the most dangerous component of playa dust is probably the silicon

Probably. But a week's worth of it is probably nothing compared to years of it that people who live nearby breathe. I would look for statistics on various lung ailments among the local population.

But the most serious dangers to your health out there are likely to be yourself and other participants.

[Bob]

Playa dust is about half silt, half clay, with a bit of sand and shit.

And Valley Fever fungi, as previously cited.

[ygmir]

I'd think mostly Gypsum, and other salts of sodium, potassium, calcium and sulfur......

[Simon of the Playa]

i have been snorting playa for 12 years, and have been smoking "rock" playa for the past 4.

I am addicted, i'll admit it...


however, i have never suffered any ill effects, except maybe losing my job, divorce, legal problems, and continued psychiatric treatment.

I dont wear a mask, and i often share water with people i dont know.

But, I have never had any pulmonary problems, and i'm a heavy user.

[Box Burner]

The problem has been solved. The playa dust is slowly being replaced with belly button lint.

[stargeezer]

Whose belly button??

I see this possibility as one of those good news / bad news scenarios depending on the source!!!

[ygmir]

Whose belly button??

I see this possibility as one of those good news / bad news scenarios depending on the source!!!

Where will this one go?.....

[dana]

I only hope I can get that frightening image out of my mind someday....



In reference to the original poster on eosinophilic pnuemonia and for the cite-impaired:

[Acute Eosinophilic Pneumonia in US Military Personnel
Severe acute pneumonitis among deployed U.S. military personnel -- Southwest Asia, March-August 2003 [CDC. MMWR. 2003;52:857]. Abstract. This is a report on 19 US military personnel stationed in the Central Command (CENTCOM) area who had acute bilateral pneumonitis requiring intubation and mechanical ventilation. The median age was 25 years, a variety of military activities were involved, the onset occurred at a median of 81 days after deployment, and clinical investigation showed that 10 had evidence of increased eosinophils that were in peripheral blood (n = , bronchoalveolar lavage (BAL) fluid (n = 3), pulmonary tissue (n = 1), and/or pleural fluid (n = 1). In the 8 with peripheral eosinophilia, the absolute eosinophil count (AEC) was 2000-6600/mL (normal is < 600), and this was noted at a median of 6 days after the onset of illness. On the basis of these observations, the following interim case definition was given:

Confirmed case: US military or government employee deployed to CENTCOM with bilateral pneumonitis requiring mechanical ventilation not ascribed to other medical conditions plus elevated pulmonary eosinophils by histology, BAL (> 5%) or in pleural fluid (> 5%)

Review of the 19 cases noted above showed 4 were confirmed, 6 were probable, and 9 were suspect. Of these 19, 13 were in Iraq, 15 (79%) smoked cigarettes or cigars, and 9 of 10 with confirmed or probable severe acute pneumonitis had begun smoking after deployment. The cause of this syndrome is not known, but the authors noted that in 1997, 2 soldiers had a similar syndrome after field training in the Mojave Desert in California.[1]]



Interesting that the syndrome is still so poorly understood and so many of these are showing up in desert environments...