Yasir Arafat dies, world peace has a chance....

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Post by DVD Burner » Sat Jun 16, 2007 11:10 am

Thing that totally cracks me up is how America and Israel talked about Arafat and his Fatah like dogs and not long after his death both the U.S. and Israel pump millions of dollars and military equipment and military training into Fatah to defeat Hamas, a democratically elected entity only for Fatah to get their ass kicked.


Nothing complicated about that situation.


:lol:

There can be peace in the middle east, Israel and the U.S. need to stop fucking with Palistine and Israel needs to give up some of that land. Seems pretty simple to me but that's just me right?

The facts are, the truth is a bitch.

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Post by mdmf007 » Sat Jun 16, 2007 6:36 pm

Absolutely - salient point indeed. you ask "do I think security has been increased..."

NO, the peoples that lived in Israel before the Israeli's came back home have lived there for centuries as well, and have as much claim to the land. Definately no easy answers.

I have to admit I feel for the Israeli's, and their history, but much of the land grabs in the 80's and early 90's were simply that - land grabs by the Israeli's.

Palestine, has as much right to exist as Israel, but man - lots of drama.

From Elat in the south to Metula in the north of Israel is smaller than Western WA from Blaine to Portland. How can so little an area creat millenia of drama?

I will bet a donut against my life that there will never be peace in Israel / Gaza / West Bank . I think the best that can ever be attained is a sense of scurity, but at what cost? Huge border walls? gun towers? airport security that makes ours look like a Wal Mart trip.

Time will tell, It taked generations for events to soften and become the norm.

later
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Post by can't sit still » Sat Jun 16, 2007 9:41 pm

There is some good info here; http://www.insidepakistan.com/?sid=c9dc ... 7d5a579440
The moderate arabs are beginning to think that we don't know what we're doing. I'm sorry but , that isn't the case. We specialise in tossing out elected leaders and installing asswipes. The Pshaw? of Iran being a good example. When all is said and done,,, we make more money that way.
Dylan's Masters of War sow hate and anarchy and reap gold. We're too irresponsible as a species for the power we control.
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Post by Lassen Forge » Sun Jun 17, 2007 9:22 am

mdmf007 wrote: All this guy wants is for the county to be abetter place than when he got it. Is that too much to ask, I think Israel has a right to their ground, and a right to wall up their borders if they want.
later

It's an interesting story. But it shows the sadness of the situation there.

I'm going to change history for a sec, to illuminate a point. See if you get the point of it.

(Side note - this assumes things which are not historical fact, such as nuclear weapon developmment in WW2, etc. Please don't use that to blow this off, OK? It's used only as a device to show... something...)


********

The German Wehrmacht deployed 2 of their hydrogen heavy water bombs in early 1944, one from a U-Boat 110 miles off the Atlantic seaboard, one from their V3 base in Northern Norway. With DC in a shambles, NYC in flames, and when the 3rd one obliterated Detroit and the 4th, Cincinnati, just to make a point (and with the help of their Japanese allies taking out the seaport cities on the west coast) they devastated a major part of the US economy. And population. And will to fight. The US sued for peace.

The Germans were more than happy to oblige. After all - they won. Sent their government in, changed the country's name to ReichsProtektorate Amerika (Abbreviated RpA). The USA - is over.

60 years later...

You get up to go to work. Wermacht "Internal Security Force" border guards are at checkpoints, arming machine guns, armed to the teeth with their 9 mm full auto pistols, 88 mm machine guns, etc. They are there to make sure YOU go through their checkpoints, which can be a 2-3 hour process each way (with no guarantee you will get through) rather than go up the street, around the corner, and be at work in 5 minutes. One of the guys who populates that checkpoint - Hans - Puts on his Internal Security Force uniform and all the related hardware of death, kisses his wife and 2 daughters goodbye, and goes 6 blocks to his checkpoint, to put in his 10 hour day making sure anyone (including you) who get too close to *his* "zone of death" gets stopped - with the extreme use of deadly force - not going through the checkpoint. You know he means business - your neighbor and her son were picked off just 2 weeks ago. Plus, he fires off 250 rounds plus a day - who knows if it's part of the fear tactic to keep you in your place, or which of your friends and neighbors won't be coming home tonight, because they were in the wrong place. Or close to it.

You're one of the lucky ones - at least you have a car. Of course it's not a Chrysler or a Packard or a big Mercedes - those are reserved for those who supported the Germans, those who support the RpA. You have a 1962 Ford Futura - no heater, barely runs - but you're better off than most, who have at best bicycles. It's because you work at a filling station favored by the local party apparatchik. But you're still not German, not Das Bund, not a party member - You're an Alter-Amerikaner, and that means, you're one of *them*.

Of course, had you supported the Nazis here, been in Das Bund, maybe not had a grandparent who helped spy on the Germans back in the war, maybe had your cousin not been picked up in a meeting with suspected possible anti-Reichs instigators, whatever, you would have been one of those who would be living the good life - best of apartments, life free of strife and fear, except maybe a terror bombing by the evil "Liberty Resistance Group" - after all, they have the Wehrmacht and the Gestapo and the ISF protecting them in this hostile land. You - the ones whose ancestors have lived here for a couple hundred years - are now unwelcome, oppressed, and treated like scum - because someone else has placed their borders on your (Oops - not yours any longer) land - and you're not one of them.

OF course, John, living in the Japanese Protectorate of Oahu, says the Germans are good and decent people, and it's their right, by conquest, to put down the anti-socialist forces in the former US, put up walls, and teach you yanks a lesson. So what if you die - you probably deserve it, anyway. Most of his friends agree - after all, they're good citizens of a country now allied to the Reich. And there's none of that anti-socialism on *their* islands - all *those* have been shipped off to some concentration camp on an island in the Pacific North somewhere...


*********
Aren't you glad you don't live in such a horrible place? Or do you love to live in oppression and fear, fear for your very life, and that of your family, on a daily basis? Having the most powerful nations on the planet saying that you're the scum of the earth, and if you were executed, so much the better...

Now - imagine yourself as someone born in Israel to Palestinian parents...

And imagine how your life would be.

*********

Have a nice, cozy, happy day now, not being in a society of "us" and "them".

bb

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Post by mdmf007 » Sun Jun 17, 2007 1:39 pm

Quite a bleak picture either way, Your piture of Germany seems to lean a bit too much towards the communist plan, but is a good read still.

It would have to suck to be a palestinian born in Israel no doubt.
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Post by helitack » Sun Jun 17, 2007 1:44 pm

Or....imagine yourself born in the US of A of Hopi parents on Second Mesa. Or of Lakotah parents on Pine Ridge...
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Post by Zulegoona » Sun Jun 17, 2007 3:11 pm

helitack wrote:Or....imagine yourself born in the US of A of Hopi parents on Second Mesa. Or of Lakotah parents on Pine Ridge...
No shit, same bleak picture with the “ we are going to take your kids away from you and put them in an abusive institution to eradicate whatever vestiges of your culture and language they might still possess so they will assimilate better into being underclass Americans.â€

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Post by mdmf007 » Sun Jun 17, 2007 10:08 pm

unfortunately conquered peoples are not always treated well. They are lied to, extorted, moved to reservations, treated as second class citizens or exterminated outright.
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Post by Apollonaris Zeus » Mon Jun 18, 2007 8:56 pm

DVD Burner wrote:Thing that totally cracks me up is how America and Israel talked about Arafat and his Fatah like dogs and not long after his death both the U.S. and Israel pump millions of dollars and military equipment and military training into Fatah to defeat Hamas, a democratically elected entity only for Fatah to get their ass kicked.

There can be peace in the middle east, Israel and the U.S. need to stop fucking with Palistine and Israel needs to give up some of that land. Seems pretty simple to me but that's just me right?

.
the palestinians voted for the hamas because fatah didn't get any compromise from dealing with the Israelis. Lets remember that before the Lebanon invasion, Hamas was losing in the polls in the upcoming election. Then Hamas and Hezbollah played the Israeli card by capturing their soldiers.

Hamas may lose the popularity contest in this civil war. This war makes them look bad and they are leaning to radical Islam which isn’t really accepted by the moderate palestians.. Fatah is asking Israel to release Gaza Fatah leaders from prison. That would boost fatah’s lost leadership in that region. Fatah and Hez may play the Israeli card once again We will see if Israeli will take the bait.

Obama spent one year in a Wahabi School, but he spend two years in catholic school as a child. Poor kid he was probably more fucked up from the catholic school. But that doesn’t make you a pedophile or a terrorist. A person of middle eastern decent would be a good more for amerika. Shows the Arab world we aren’t a pawn of Israel!

He and Hillary would be a winning combination against a possible Guiliani and Romney ticket. A Mormon negates a once-was Islamic by two to one.

AIIZ

PS- if every amerikan spent 15 mins a day, we wouldn't be in this mess!

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Post by Lassen Forge » Tue Jun 19, 2007 3:10 am

helitack wrote:Or....imagine yourself born in the US of A of Hopi parents on Second Mesa. Or of Lakotah parents on Pine Ridge...
Oh... you are SO fucking RIGHT, Heli... I have a friend who WAS born on Pine Ridge and a Lakotah to boot. Talk about Fucked up??? She was able to escape, but even then it's been a fucking struggle for her.

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Post by Green Wood » Tue Jun 19, 2007 11:49 pm

mdmf007 wrote:unfortunately conquered peoples are not always treated well. They are lied to, extorted, moved to reservations, treated as second class citizens or exterminated outright.
Conquered people?

As in the palestinians, The war isn't over!

Here in America it is, but now the indians have a new weapon:

Gambling!!!!

Along with the billions of dollars that will come along with the settlement of the stolen funds controled by the dept of indian affairs.

They might be able to buy back America!
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Post by DVD Burner » Wed Jun 20, 2007 4:31 pm

Tuesday, June 19, 2007
Jimmy Carter On The Should-Haves Of US Foreign Policy

Jimmy Carter spoke in Ireland today at the ninth annual NGO Forum on Human Rights, where he took the opportunity to comment on the latest situation in Palestine and the US’s role in it, during a post speech press conference:

The United States, Israel and the European Union must end their policy of favoring Fatah over Hamas, or they will doom the Palestinian people to deepening conflict between the rival movements, former US President Jimmy Carter said Tuesday.

Carter said Hamas, besides winning a fair and democratic mandate that should have entitled it to lead the Palestinian government, had proven itself to be far more organized in its political and military showdowns with the Fatah movement of Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas.

Carter said the American-Israeli-European consensus to reopen direct aid to the new government in the West Bank, but to deny the same to the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip, represented an "effort to divide Palestinians into two peoples."

While much of the media, western and Middle Eastern place the blame solely on Hamas for the recent bloodshed and infighting, rightfully so, to some extent in my opinion, Carter understands, and makes clear, that the decision by Hamas to forcibly take control of the Gaza Strip did not arise from vacuum.

Far from encouraging Hamas's move into parliamentary politics, Carter said the US and Israel, with European Union acquiescence, has sought to subvert the outcome by shunning Hamas and helping Abbas to keep the reins of political and military power.

"That action was criminal," he said in a news conference after his speech.

Criminal it was. But it was not a coincidence. Hamas’ main rival and foe in Gaza, Mohammad Dahlan, a senior Fatah leader, hardly a critic of Israel, said in an interview today that Hamas action was a trap laid by the Israeli’s, in which Hamas conveniently fell. That is true, but he failed to mention that he is party to laying down that trap; by constantly undermining and subverting Hamas’ authority, denying a chance to lead and exercise its electoral right, and keep security forces from the command of Hamas’ elected leaders.

Money, law and security are musts for effective rule. Hamas was denied all of the above, as part of a conspiracy that targets all Palestinians through targeting one side and favoring the other among them. Unfortunately, Hamas was pushed so far that it decided to acquire the security part, by force and bloodshed. Now it has the security in Gaza, to the extent of a land besieged by occupation forces, but it does not have the money. It overplayed its hand, and it will not be able to rule for long.

Additionally, Carter directed criticism at the U.S. during his speech to the human rights group, for yet another policy debacle. Carter said that the United States has abandoned its role as a supporter of human rights since September 11; that the U.S. tortures detainees at Abu Ghraib and elsewhere; and that domestic civil liberties have been eroded by the Patriot Act and other statutes.

Posted by Fayyad at 7:40 PM

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Post by DVD Burner » Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:46 pm

Israel Raids West Bank City, Angers Fatah


JERUSALEM, June 28, 2007

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/06/ ... 2096.shtml

(CBS/AP) Israeli troops raided downtown Nablus early Thursday, imposing a curfew that confined tens of thousands of people to their homes as soldiers combed the city's narrow alleyways in search of wanted Palestinian militants. Five soldiers were wounded in clashes with Palestinian gunmen, the army said.

The crackdown drew angry condemnations from the new Palestinian government of President Mahmoud Abbas. Earlier this week, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert promised to bolster Abbas' government, which is locked in a power struggle with the Islamic Hamas rulers of the Gaza Strip.

"We view this aggression as a way to undermine our efforts to provide security and end the chaos," Palestinian Prime Minister Salam Fayyad said at a conference in the West Bank town of Ramallah.

Soldiers clashed with gunmen from the Fatah faction of U.S.-backed Abbas. CBS News correspondent Robert Berger reports the raids are a sign that Israel's military won't ease up on Fatah, despite the government's support for Abbas' struggle against Hamas, which seized control of the Gaza Strip two weeks ago.

The operation began late Wednesday, just as Israel was wrapping up two incursions in the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip. In those raids, Israeli forces killed 11 Palestinians, including eight gunmen and a 12-year-old boy. It was the bloodiest fighting in Gaza since the Hamas takeover two weeks ago.

Israel has frequently raided Nablus in six years of fighting. In a statement Thursday, the army described the city as a "major terror hub" home to two-thirds of the 187 would-be suicide bombers that troops nabbed last year.

The army said Thursday's operation was meant to "disrupt the terror activity in Nablus."

In what has become a routine procedure, the army interrupted broadcasts on the city's radio and TV stations as the raids began, telling residents not to go outside.

Five soldiers were wounded by bombs as they moved from home to home through the densely populated Old City, the army said. Militants linked to Abbas' Fatah movement claimed responsibility for the attacks.

Olmert's spokeswoman, Miri Eisin, said the Israeli government is committed to working with Abbas, but would not risk the safety of its own citizens.

"Israel will always fight terror," she said. "We will go forward with full strength to strengthen Abbas, and full strength to stop the terror," she said.

The swift victory of Hamas forces over Fatah in Gaza has left the Palestinians divided into two political entities: the West Bank, governed by Fatah, and Hamas-controlled Gaza.

This week, Abbas announced that he would disarm all militants in the West Bank, even those who are loyal to Fatah. But it is unclear how the weakened Abbas would enforce the order. He has made similar pledges in the past that were never carried out.

Reflecting that challenge, a prominent Fatah militant in the West Bank town of Jenin told The Associated Press that while he supported Abbas' decree, his men would not lay down their arms because they were needed to fight Israel.
Meanwhile, Israeli President Moshe Katzav, seen at left, agreed to resign Thursday under an unexpected plea bargain that included no jail time for sex crimes, ending a year-long investigation. Katzav admitted to charges of sexual harassment and obstruction of justice, but rape charges were dropped.

The alleged rape victim and women's rights groups described the plea bargain as outrageous, reports Berger.

The plea deal was widely seen as a victory for the Israeli president, who holds a largely ceremonial post but is expected to set moral standards and help unify the country in times of trouble.

The announcement by Attorney General Meni Mazuz abruptly ended a case that captured the public's attention, painting Katsav as a boss who repeatedly took advantage of his female employees.

In the space of a year, Katsav sank from being "Israel's No. 1 citizen to a convicted sex offender," Mazuz told a news conference.

Katsav is one of several high-level officials — including Prime Minister Ehud Olmert — who recently have been implicated in
scandals.

The president, whose seven-year term was due to end next month, planned to formally resign later Thursday, said spokesman Ronen Tzur. Katsav suspended himself in January to fight the charges.

Katsav, who had always proclaimed his innocence, agreed to the plea bargain "after the smear campaign of the past year, and in order to spare his family the pain" of a prolonged legal process, Tzur said.

The deal also marked a dramatic reversal by the attorney general, who announced plans in January to indict Katsav for graver charges of rape and sexual misconduct.

Instead, Katsav will plead guilty to sexual harassment, indecent acts and harassing a witness, Mazuz said. He also will pay damages to plaintiffs and receive a suspended sentence.

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Post by DVD Burner » Thu Jul 05, 2007 11:07 pm

So like.....Hamas.....or maybe...............Fatah is in charge in Gaza right?





Oh yeah!


:lol:


Is Hamas in charge or what? :lol:



Looks like Israel is gonna have to deal with Hamas huh?


:lol:

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