Internet on the Playa

flyboypa28r · Post by **flyboypa28r** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 8:14 pm

I thought I read somewhere that wireless high speed Internet is available on the playa for anyone to use. I would like to be able to have my wife contact me in case of an emergency (not like I wanna sit on the computer all day, I do that enough with my job).

Another idea I had: If it is indeed available, I was contemplating a camp Black Rock Bell where people could call home (via an Internet phone call) to let wives, husbands, parents or whoever know that they are safe and all is well.

Anyhow, can someone confirm it's availability and probable availability in 2004?

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 10:25 pm

What you describe is not available. There's a shuttle bus you can take to the nearest town to make a call at a pay phone.

Media people bring their own satellite communication equipment. Like them, you could rent a satellite phone.

But if you expect an emergency to happen, why are you leaving home?

antron · Post by **antron** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 10:32 pm

there is quite a bit of 801.11b coverage of brc but connectivity was intermittant and slow. there were a couple of private satellite uplinks as well. none were particularly fast. voip would be a disaster.

of course, you could bring your own dish...

antron · Post by **antron** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 10:33 pm

and playa dust gets sucked into your pc through its cooling fan. lots of it.

flyboypa28r · Post by **flyboypa28r** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 11:19 pm

Bob, does anyone expect an emergency? No, but in the event of one a lot of after the fact "if I only" happens. Look everywhere on this site, doesn't it say to come prepared? 10 days away from the wife and all I need is something stupid to happen that I could talk her through easily. No, i'm not anticipating it and i'm not being paranoid, but if it was available then why not do it?

Antron, thanks. That's what I needed to know. VOIP over satellite would not work well at all. I had read about the 802.11 being avail. but didn't know the truth to it or how stable it was. Thanks for the info.

Isotopia · Post by **Isotopia** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 12:29 am

rogue agent · Post by **rogue agent** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 10:41 am

One of the things that makes Burning Man work is its near absolute isolation from the Default World. Just because something can be done, doesn't mean it should be done. I'm strongly opposed to making Internet, VoIP or other technological access to the outside world easily and widely available within the event. I see it as a form of mental pollution that works against the goal of creating a sense of community on the Playa.

But that's just me.

RA

flyboypa28r · Post by **flyboypa28r** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 11:32 am

Rogue, I agree with your mental pollution point, however, one scenario to think about would be:

An 18 year old decides to go to BM. His or her mother gets into a car wreck and dies. Then what, the kid misses the mothers funeral because they couldn't drop a line on Wed. saying i'm alright and perhaps get the news.

I don't think setting up a system for people to tell a significant other they are doing fine is pollution. The fact is, during that week 30,000 people may live in an different world, but their families are in reality. I'm not saying Marcy should call Suzy to see how her date with her new boyfriend went.

I know if I had a daughter who was at BM and something happened on Monday, it would not be a fun time at home for the rest of the week+

Don't misinterpret emergency communications with trying to do something stupid like bringing IM to the playa, that's not what I was getting at.

rogue agent · Post by **rogue agent** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 11:41 am

flyboypa28r wrote:Don't misinterpret emergency communications with trying to do something stupid like bringing IM to the playa, that's not what I was getting at.

OK, so the trick is, how do we do one without the other? I'm all for enabling communication with Outside in emergencies, especially where the emergency happens Out There. But I want some way to discourage its abuse to become a generic channel with the world.

RA

flyboypa28r · Post by **flyboypa28r** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 12:17 pm

Exactly, we are in agreement then. The other way would be to create a ham radio camp and get a couple of volunteers on the outside who could forward emergency messages via phone if needed. That happens a lot in natural disaster situations. That would be true emergency communications and really limit the direct outside contact since it would be proxied. Or a satellite phone could do the job. My theory (in passing) was that if they had reliable 802.11 then it wouldn't really cost anything to set it up as VOIP.
For the ham radio idea, a number could be posted for people to give to a family member (strictly for emergency only, none of this your cat pee'd on the rug again stuff), and then when messages are received a note could be taken. The problem is you and I know there would be abuse of the system and the logistics of it would be difficult. People would have to come to that camp to get the messages. So what 30k people cross our doorstep daily? Whew!

Another thought as I am typing is to have a micro-broadcast radio station that just repeats the names of people who have messages waiting. Just tune in and if you hear your name then come a runnin', if not, then we have nothing for you.

It may be a lot of work for nothing, but maybe not for the one person who actually benefits from the service.

Any ideas on that one?

talisen · Post by **talisen** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 12:17 pm

I'm strongly opposed to making Internet, VoIP or other technological access to the outside world easily and widely available within the event. I see it as a form of mental pollution that works against the goal of creating a sense of community on the Playa.

I always get worried when I see absolute declarations regarding (most anything). After a fashion its not unlike the radio. If you (disagree, dislike, get bored with, whatever) what is being said, you turn off or change to a diff station.

As one who enjoys tinkering, I'll try and link up to any provided internet access, because I'll find it interesting and amusing. Regardless its not a prerequisite to the experience.

rogue agent · Post by **rogue agent** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 1:12 pm

talisen wrote:I always get worried when I see absolute declarations regarding (most anything). After a fashion its not unlike the radio. If you (disagree, dislike, get bored with, whatever) what is being said, you turn off or change to a diff station.

Think about what would happen if I took 50 self-powered TVs and scattered them across the Playa (with guards to make sure they don't get stolen or smashed). It'd be an intrusion of the Default World, its values, patterns & modes of thinking, on the community we spend so much effort building. Ubquitous Internet access would have a similar effect.

I dunno about you, but when I'm at Burning Man I'm trying to build something different from Out There. I believe social isolation is as key to that as the physical isolation of holding the event in the middle of the Nevada desert.

I don't want to make it absolute, to ban the Internet or voice communication completely. There's people who have a legitimate need for it. I just don't want to make it easily & widely available, else it will tend to break down the unique sense of community that makes Burning Man what it is.

RA

precipitate · Post by **precipitate** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 1:22 pm

> the kid misses the mothers funeral because they couldn't drop a line on
> Wed

The kid could take the bus into Gerlach and make a phone call.

Why take on this immense technical challenge just because you're a
worrywart? I mean, if it's challenge for challenge's sake, then go for it. If
it's a safety blanket, leave it at home already.

It's theoretically possible for outside parties to contact you in case of
emergency through the Burning Man office in Gerlach. As long as the
person contacting you knows where you are, you'll probably get the
message. On the whole, though, I'm in agreement with rogue agent.
When you're on the playa, you're on the playa. The outside world can
wait. If your grandmother's about to die and you can't bear to miss
the funeral, you probably shouldn't attend Burning Man that year.

talisen · Post by **talisen** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 1:46 pm

I don't want to make it absolute, to ban the Internet or voice communication completely. There's people who have a legitimate need for it. I just don't want to make it easily & widely available, else it will tend to break down the unique sense of community that makes Burning Man what it is.

Ok, I'll agree with that.

Isotopia · Post by **Isotopia** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 2:09 pm

Don't misinterpret emergency communications with trying to do something stupid like bringing IM to the playa, that's not what I was getting at.

You obviously haven't heard about the camel.

And his nose.

And the tent.

flyboypa28r · Post by **flyboypa28r** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 2:17 pm

precipitate wrote:>Why take on this immense technical challenge just because you're a
worrywart? I mean, if it's challenge for challenge's sake, then go for it. If
it's a safety blanket, leave it at home already.

I am by no means a worrywart. I don't expect anything bad to happen at all. It was more just a thought that in all I had read, I had not seen anyone attempt this sort of thing. It was also more of an emergency thing. Sure, if you are expecting someone to die or something then you probably should stay home. But we are talking more about emergencies.

Also, I never said I wanted Internet access (for generic chatting or browsing), just comms.

As far as TVs' being scattered around. Come on, a few days out there does not blind a person from what they see three and a half hundred other days. We are not that stupid of a species yet. I just don't see how a young girl getting an emergency message from her parents would be an outside intrusion. You guys are comparing that to the evening news. And like another poster said... If you don't want to use the service then don't. If you don't want to buy ice hauled in from the outside world then don't. If you don't want an outside company to pump out your RV mid-week then don't. Isn't it just that total freedom to do what we want and express ourselves the way we want what BM is all about? By imposing a lockdown mentality to other burners by telling them it's not right man, your cramping the BM spirit man, you are being counterproductive to the BM spirit yourself. Maybe it is my gift to offer someone who may need an emergency call to or from home the ability to do so. Maybe I won't even do it at all. It was just a fucking thought.

flyboypa28r · Post by **flyboypa28r** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 2:49 pm

Sorry about that, it was my shining chance to fit the word fuck into a post.

rogue agent · Post by **rogue agent** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 3:00 pm

flyboypa28r wrote:Exactly, we are in agreement then. The other way would be to create a ham radio camp and get a couple of volunteers on the outside who could forward emergency messages via phone if needed.

I'm starting to wonder if this a problem that needs a solution or a solution in search of a problem. What I mean is, how many emergencies that can't wait till the end of the week happen during a Burn? Enough to create a system to deal with them and tie up people to staff it?

RA

rogue agent · Post by **rogue agent** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 3:17 pm

flyboypa28r wrote:I am by no means a worrywart. I don't expect anything bad to happen at all. It was more just a thought that in all I had read, I had not seen anyone attempt this sort of thing. It was also more of an emergency thing. Sure, if you are expecting someone to die or something then you probably should stay home. But we are talking more about emergencies.

This would have to be only for people who arrange for the service beforehand, and take the time to check in with the service periodically. There's no way in hell you'll track down random people out on the Playa.

Isn't it just that total freedom to do what we want and express ourselves the way we want what BM is all about? By imposing a lockdown mentality to other burners by telling them it's not right man, your cramping the BM spirit man, you are being counterproductive to the BM spirit yourself. Maybe it is my gift to offer someone who may need an emergency call to or from home the ability to do so. Maybe I won't even do it at all. It was just a fucking thought.

I'm in no position of authority to stop you from doing it if it's what you want to do. I'm just pointing out what I see as wise or unwise for maintaining the community. It's my opinion that the easier it is for the Outside World to reach in, the harder it will be to maintain that sense of being somewhere separate from that world. Just because we can, doesn't mean we should. That's all.

RA

flyboypa28r · Post by **flyboypa28r** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 3:18 pm

Mostly, it is an "I wonder if..." tied to a "How can I use my skills to benefit..." with a dash of compassion thrown in for good measure.

"how many emergencies that can't wait till the end of the week happen during a Burn"

Well, for me, it would only take that one person who may benefit. I really wasn't thinking in terms of cost/benefit.

"I'm starting to wonder if this a problem that needs a solution or a solution in search of a problem"

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

rogue agent · Post by **rogue agent** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 3:31 pm

flyboypa28r wrote:Well, for me, it would only take that one person who may benefit. I really wasn't thinking in terms of cost/benefit.

What are the different roles required for the service to work? How many people does it take to run, end to end? I'm just not convinced it'll do what you think it will, at least not without a lot more effort than you expect.

RA

flyboypa28r · Post by **flyboypa28r** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 3:54 pm

Well, most of this thread I have been playing devils advocate to make a point. Realistically speaking: I really do see your point, and it is valid.

To work something like that would require a person on the outside, maybe an older amateur radio operator to get the calls or email or something via a website and call them in over 10 meter or so to the camp. There would need to be someone at camp to field those calls and copy them down. Then the camp operator updates a looping message on a microbroadcast radio station. Then when people listen they can hear if they have a message. If so, they come to camp to pick it up and possibly reply to it. At that point the radio message is updated.

So really, it would depend on the hours people would want to donate. It's really not a big thing to do.

There is another way to automate it. And thats either with packet radio or satellite internet where people could leave messages on a site and it could be checked on the playa. That would drastically reduce workload because someone doesn't have to babysit a radio.

Working the premise that this is emergency only. People on the outside wouldn't understand it and try to sent garbage messages or barage the operator on the outside with calls. That right there is what cuts down the feasibility of it. Maybe there was a mis-understanding of my intent for such a system, but it is emergency only. I'm sure no matter what verbage is used on a website people would still send stupid shit.

I could really automate the hell out of it using the internet and use the computer to speak the names out over the radio station. The possibilities of reducing the workload are numerous, but the possibilities of abusing such a system are numerous also.

All in all, it was a passing thought. Just wondering what if.
Do I wish to meld Playa and non-Playa? Absolutely not.
Will I take the idea any further? ehh, who knows.
Heck, 2 days ago my great idea was to make the worlds biggest glowstick. Next week who knows.

flyboypa28r · Post by **flyboypa28r** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 3:59 pm

The other negative side is that you don't want people sitting around listening to a radio station full of names when they should be out having fun.

Chai Guy · Post by **Chai Guy** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 4:09 pm

I guess I'm missing the point of this debate entirely

They already have internet access on the playa via Wifi and kiosks (read below).

If there was an emergency at home you could
A. email home using your laptop and wifi card
B. email home using one of the kiosk computers
C. take the bus to gerlach and use the pay phone
D. schmooze someone with a sattelite phone and use that.

As for getting a message from home to you, not sure exactly how, but I know it's been done. (I remember listening to one of the radio stations one year and they were broadcasting a messsage to a person to come to a Ranger station as they had an emergency message for them).

http://www.eugeneweb.com/~bm/ibm.html

* PlayaNET

Got PlayaNET? PlayaNET is an internal wireless network for anyone to use. Last year we existed in brief stealth mode; this year we're going hardcore with deploying three booths (center camp and both outposts) throughout the site. Each booth contains a number of kiosks (computers) for your browsing pleasure. View the latest Black Rock Gazette, weather forecast (with real-time local weather station), interactive mapping (puts MapBlast to shame), send short messages/drawings to Spin net, sex chat with other booth'ers, leave messages for others on the playa, etc. We at PlayaNET encourage art projects, theme camps, villages, and anyone else to utilize the network for your own purposes. Please contact us prior to the event for additional assistance. See our web site for details on connecting your own laptop. See last year¹s main web page at http://sahara.playanet.org/2000/. Email us at: playanet_content(at)torche(dot)com if you would like to put some content onto PlayaNET for this years event. (Brought to you by Chris Petrell, Matt Peterson & Tristan Horn)

* Internet Connectivity

The Oregon Country Fair Embassy camp will offer Internet access through a high-speed satellite link via an 802.11B wireless network. The wireless network should cover the entire Playa area, and be usable from roaming laptops as well as in camps. For more info please see: http://www.eugeneweb.com/~bm/ibm.html or visit us at the OCFE theme camp.

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 4:15 pm

hey fly,

I got intermittant 802.11b connects last year. Very unreliable but it was there. I had fun sending a daily photo journal home to my wife (although I got too distracted and stopped after 2 days).

for the rest of you...

don't fuckin tell me how to get the most out of burning man. And if I want to build an art installation with 50 tvs I will do that as well.
if you don't want the contact, don't connect. Leave the rest of us alone.

rogue agent · Post by **rogue agent** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 4:18 pm

flyboypa28r wrote:All in all, it was a passing thought. Just wondering what if.
Do I wish to meld Playa and non-Playa? Absolutely not.
Will I take the idea any further? ehh, who knows.
Heck, 2 days ago my great idea was to make the worlds biggest glowstick. Next week who knows.

Hey, don't give up. The more ideas you have, the more likely you are to have one that's worth doing. That glowstick one, now that has potential...

RA

flyboypa28r · Post by **flyboypa28r** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 4:19 pm

Stuart,

I gotta camp with you man! I like your style.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 4:34 pm

Out of 30 000 peps there has to be one ham freak. The playa seems to be in a hole. No in or out after Cederville on CB's.

In 02 one of the farmers told a hell of a story. Said a cell phone co. pushed a road to the top of a large hill above the playa. They set up a tower and were ready to set up shop. The day it was to be turned on, one worker went up the hill. He was about ready to throw the switch when a BLM showed up. The BLM informed him the road up to the tower was not up to BLM standard. The worker close his tool box and left. Nothing has been done after that.

flyboypa28r · Post by **flyboypa28r** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 5:09 pm

I got my license in '94 just to do it. Talked on 2 meter twice, haven't since. I agree hams tend to be pretty dull.

sphene · Post by **sphene** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 5:31 pm

flyboypa28r wrote: All in all, it was a passing thought. Just wondering what if.
Do I wish to meld Playa and non-Playa? Absolutely not.
Will I take the idea any further? ehh, who knows.
Heck, 2 days ago my great idea was to make the worlds biggest glowstick. Next week who knows.

Your idea as a community service sounds great. I know my wife asked how she would get in touch with me should something happen to her and the kids. I mused that if I stay with a well known camp she could probably call the office and have a message relayed in. But I said there was no guarantee. If you're interested, go for it.