I need help!

dana · Post by **dana** » Fri Jun 15, 2007 11:14 am

Me2 wrote:
To me utopia is an ideal, not necessarily a reality. Something just beyond the edge of possibility we're meant to strive for. Does this fit with BM?

Actually I could go out on a limb here, to expand that concept - about realities that are "just beyond the edge of possibility". Its a metaphysical question in a sense. We grow up believing that reality flows directly from the past into the future - linear causation from past to present. (Since I was talking a little about it on another thread, I'll write some more about it here.) One of the really wierd ideas from Eastern mystical thought and new age as well, is that our experience of the time/space continuum is hard wired into our consciousness and we end up experiencing just that - past flowing into present. But we could as well learn to sense the future as something that exists as a potential reality that already exists which pulls us forward. Among the myriad possible futures are some that are truly phenomenal - the utopian ideal for instance. So you can learn to "hook onto" that possible future and hold it as a kind of anchor that pulls you toward that.
Now this isn't just a wacky idea that I groove on. It actually is something real for me that reflects my experience. a bit like Slaughterhouse Five, with time shifts. (Wierd experiences that make no sense in the present but eventually are found to be sourced in the future. I'm not kidding....)
So that is something I take as a real possibility, ideal futures that you can try to pull into being.
Now the way that I laid it out here is just a simplification. But one part of it is just what you said Me2 - "the ideal, not necessarily a reality." Some of the future realities that you can, in a sense "give life to", are such that they are simply too big. They could never manifest in your current (or future) reality. But could they still have an impact that helps to create a better reality right now, even though the full deal will never happen?

Too wierd?

and thanks LeChat!!

Me2 · Post by **Me2** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 5:27 pm

So how do you fit human craziness into a utopian society. Do you spend much of your energy trying to get everyone to be compliant? Be nice? Or can that utopia somehow embrace the craziness......Then I started considering how all of that pans out at Bman. If you get there eventually you will see that there is some "peace love and understanding" but you'll also encounter some really crazy anarchistic nutzo types, some of them who like to use bullhorns to communicate..... But then you go back to that idea of Radical Inclusion. And you also see those people as someone who kind of tests your limits, who will take the measure of whether you really need to take a stand or whether you can just smile and walk on by. Because in the end it still ends up that the really wierd success of Bman is how well it does manage to fit all of these odd folks in together at the same time.

I've been thinking about what u wrote Dana. Perhaps our interpretation of utopia is lacking a key ingredient...tolerance?

Everyone has their own ideal of utopia; for some it is peace, love and mushy stuff but for others it might be hurtling down the highway on the back of a Harley or pulling off a really important business deal. Utopia is not necessarily about everyone sharing the same lifestyle choices, but I think it is about tolerating everyone's choices within a moral and lawful framework agreed upon by the majority.

So although everyone may express their utopia differently....BM can still be a conglomerate of mini utopian experiences all interconnected.

I'm thinking out loud. Throwing ideas out there.

Me2 · Post by **Me2** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 5:34 pm

No

Why? one crying in the wilderness.

Me2 · Post by **Me2** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 5:41 pm

Peace and harmony are pretty easy to find. And the "warfare and anger" is just around the corner, but even those parts are not meant to harm. It's like a pressure relief valve for the spirit, maybe. I'll maintain the belief that its all for the bettering of us all.

During my research i read a brief article describing BM as controlled self loss (don't know if that was the phrase but that's what i got out of it), would u agree with that tag?

The other thing i want to ask is, why are we always trying so hard to avoid pain- physical and emotional? Anger isn't evil. It's part of the balance u were talking about. Pain helps u know ur alive.....just a thought.

Post by **mdmf007** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 5:46 pm

Me2 wrote:[.

Everyone has their own ideal of utopia; for some it is peace, love and mushy stuff but for others it might be hurtling down the highway on the back of a Harley or pulling off a really important business deal. .[/quote]

Absolutely tru - Beauty is in th eeye of th beholder. Watch the "movie "What Dreams May Come" I am not a big Robin Williams fan, but I think it sums up what utopia / heaven is to some people.

To me Utopis depends on what mood I am in, Sometimes it is a busy city with lots of character like Jerusalem, Cairo, San Francisco - sometimes its a jobsite we are working in the mountains of Central Idaho, or Montana, Alaska, othertimes it is as simple as my couch watching TV with my girls.

If I was forced to quantify it and "Pick" a utpoian setting to be for eternity, I would not bea ble to do it, other than pick what I am looking for at the moment, I am sure that I could pick an overall best; but it would be an average of all my utopias.

just my 3 cents.

later

Me2 · Post by **Me2** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 5:55 pm

We grow up believing that reality flows directly from the past into the future - linear causation from past to present. (Since I was talking a little about it on another thread, I'll write some more about it here.) One of the really wierd ideas from Eastern mystical thought and new age as well, is that our experience of the time/space continuum is hard wired into our consciousness and we end up experiencing just that - past flowing into present. But we could as well learn to sense the future as something that exists as a potential reality that already exists which pulls us forward. Among the myriad possible futures are some that are truly phenomenal - the utopian ideal for instance. So you can learn to "hook onto" that possible future and hold it as a kind of anchor that pulls you toward that.
Now this isn't just a wacky idea that I groove on. It actually is something real for me that reflects my experience. a bit like Slaughterhouse Five, with time shifts. (Wierd experiences that make no sense in the present but eventually are found to be sourced in the future. I'm not kidding....)
So that is something I take as a real possibility, ideal futures that you can try to pull into being.
Now the way that I laid it out here is just a simplification. But one part of it is just what you said Me2 - "the ideal, not necessarily a reality." Some of the future realities that you can, in a sense "give life to", are such that they are simply too big. They could never manifest in your current (or future) reality. But could they still have an impact that helps to create a better reality right now, even though the full deal will never happen?

Too wierd?

NOT too weird!

That makes more sense to me than u could ever imagine. I do believe it is possible to draw your future to u, not just in a "seeing in the fourth dimension" kind of way, but by speaking it out as well. There's power in our words...at least that's been my experience.

Me2 · Post by **Me2** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 6:01 pm

To me Utopis depends on what mood I am in.....If I was forced to quantify it and "Pick" a utpoian setting to be for eternity, I would not be able to do it, other than pick what I am looking for at the moment, I am sure that I could pick an overall best; but it would be an average of all my utopias.

That makes perfect sense. So mybe utopia is far less about a place or an event or lifestyle, and more about a state of mind.....I like ur 3 cents.

dana · Post by **dana** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 9:37 am

Me2 wrote: During my research i read a brief article describing BM as controlled self loss (don't know if that was the phrase but that's what i got out of it), would u agree with that tag?

The other thing i want to ask is, why are we always trying so hard to avoid pain- physical and emotional? Anger isn't evil. It's part of the balance u were talking about. Pain helps u know ur alive.....just a thought.

You're so funny Me2!! A little voyeuristic almost? But I guess there are people who post on eplaya for years before they finally get to BM. You really need to have your curiosity sated, rather than merely teasing yourself.

RE. "controlled self loss". Maybe sort of. There are lots of situations that you can put yourself into where your normal boundaries, comfort zones, ability to self-isolate, etc. are removed. That could be anything from a very intense love relationship, a bonafide religious experience, altered states, extreme sports, or burning man. One thing that happens at BM is sensory overload. Its coming at you full force sometimes. You can isolate yourself in your own camp group and avoid that extreme. Another thing that seems to take people apart somewhat is sleep deprivation. (There are reasons they use that as a means of torture.) Plus if you just throw yourself into it with a wide open attitude, you can be exposed to a lot I'd say.
By the end of the week you will see that some people are clearly losing it. Especially right after the event ends. A lot of people go into some kind of funk then. (I generally feel jazzed up.) I'm not sure if I would necessarily call that "self loss", but it can feel like being ripped open, turned inside out. Doesn't seem to be a loss per se.

And I'm curious what your take is on why we avoid pain? Emotional intensity?

Me2 · Post by **Me2** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:49 am

You're so funny Me2!! A little voyeuristic almost? But I guess there are people who post on eplaya for years before they finally get to BM. You really need to have your curiosity sated, rather than merely teasing yourself.

Funny?? I sooo want to be at BM. I want it so bad I can taste it (as 'they' say). I'm telling u, if money were no object I'd be there this year. I guess I'll just have to be satisfied with having something to look forward to....delayed gratification really sucks sometimes.

There are lots of situations that you can put yourself into where your normal boundaries, comfort zones, ability to self-isolate, etc. are removed.

I'm thinking that's a good thing. It's when we're laid bare that we learn who we really are. Don't u think?

One thing that happens at BM is sensory overload. Its coming at you full force sometimes. You can isolate yourself in your own camp group and avoid that extreme. Another thing that seems to take people apart somewhat is sleep deprivation.

I don't cope with sensory overload long-term...not sure how to deal with that one.....lack of sleep doesn't bother me (shift worker).

And I'm curious what your take is on why we avoid pain? Emotional intensity?

I've been thinking about this. Not sure I really have the answer, but here are my thoughts anyway......Pain is by design a teacher, ie we learn that if something hurts stay away from it. But society has taken this to a new level by fostering the culture, mentality and value judgment that pain is 'bad'. Therefore is should be avoided at all times. As a result parents protect their children from experiencing pain- both physical and emotional. Television also teaches us to avoid pain. So, we have whole generations growing up thinking that pain has to be avoided- that it's bad/wrong. This makes us emotionally crippled because we're incapable of expressing, processing and accepting intense experiences and emotions.

Now, I don't mean everybody on the planet is incapable, but often anything that looks like strong emotion being expressed is frowned upon and discouraged. We're all supposed to remain calm. So then we do something like go to the movies and experience the strong emotions via the cathartic effect of some on-screen drama unfolding in front of us. That's our emotional outlet, that's the best we can do. Or, we watch some sports event or music concert- they all have the same effect- they help us feel.

Does BM help unlock your pent up emotions? Is it a place where ur safe to express things u wouldn't normally say and do with other ppl? It seems like it is.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 3:46 am

I might say yes, but I can no longer separate burning man from the other parts of my life.
It isn't the only thing I'm involved in.
And I was ready for burning man long before I got there.
But it has had an effect on me.
Or, at least, the people I've met have.

dana · Post by **dana** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 9:50 am

Me2 wrote: Does BM help unlock your pent up emotions? Is it a place where ur safe to express things u wouldn't normally say and do with other ppl? It seems like it is.

Go to the Bman main page and click on Theme camp archives, and then go to Death guild/thunderdome. Click on the youtube clip.

Yeah I'd say that BM helps unlock pent up emotions in a safe supportive environment.

(snigger...)
Hey, wasn't it you Aussies that gave us this? Isn't Mel a national hero there?

Me2 · Post by **Me2** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 9:44 pm

Go to the Bman main page and click on Theme camp archives, and then go to Death guild/thunderdome. Click on the youtube clip.

Yeah I'd say that BM helps unlock pent up emotions in a safe supportive environment.

(snigger...)
Hey, wasn't it you Aussies that gave us this? Isn't Mel a national hero there?

Couldn't find the link u refered to, but I did a search of youtube and found what I think u meant, ie the guys hooked up to bouncy harnesses beating each other up with foam-covered sticks. A little sadomasochistic.

I can remember doing something similar to this at youth group as a teenager, minus the harnesses.....good, clean fun...just a game.

As for Mel being a national hero...No. Sure, he's made a name for himself doing something he loves and that's great. But what has he done with the wealth he's created as a result of his work and fame? As far as the average Aussie knows he hasn't done anything of any lasting humanitarian benefit.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 10:19 pm

Sadomasochistic?
You're thinking of a different part of the playa.

There is also Thumperdome where people fight with stuffed animals.
It's right next to Thunderdome.

Me2 · Post by **Me2** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 3:02 am

hahaha....no, that's the word i meant!

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 3:13 am

There is much more than Thunderdome out there.
That's just light play.

Me2 · Post by **Me2** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 3:29 am

I think I'll leave the hard core stuff to the boys

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 3:53 am

Buzkashi would be appropriate out there, but it's hard to get a game together.
Maybe if we used art cars?
That would be fun.

dana · Post by **dana** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:16 am

[quote="Me2] As far as the average Aussie knows he hasn't done anything of any lasting humanitarian benefit.[/quote]

The Mad Max movies?
No lasting humanitarian benefit???!!!!!!!

Sacrilege!

Me2 · Post by **Me2** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:06 pm

gyre wrote:Buzkashi would be appropriate out there, but it's hard to get a game together.

What the....? What's Buzkashi?

Me2 · Post by **Me2** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:16 pm

The Mad Max movies?
No lasting humanitarian benefit???!!!!!!!

Sacrilege!

Very funny dana!

The first movie was good, the second one i didn't watch to the end and the third one had Tina Turner in it (need i say more)!

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:51 pm

The opening scenes of The Horseman has a game.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buzkashi

http://www.afghan-network.net/Culture/buzkashi.html

http://www.afghan-web.com/sports/buzkashi.html

http://www.kidzworld.com/article/1944-b ... fghanistan

http://www.themaverick.us/buzkashi/

http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/buzkashi/

It's at least on par with australian rules football.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:41 pm

Me2 wrote:
The Mad Max movies?
No lasting humanitarian benefit???!!!!!!!

Sacrilege!
Very funny dana!

The first movie was good, the second one i didn't watch to the end and the third one had Tina Turner in it (need i say more)!

Tina Turner drives one of these in black.
It's pretty big on the smaller roads in france.
The first Lamborghini with a gun deck.

http://www.motortrend.com/features/cons ... to_09.html

http://www.autocult.com.au/Image.aspx?id=282

http://www.autocult.com.au/Image.aspx?id=281

dana · Post by **dana** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:21 am

Me2 wrote:
There are lots of situations that you can put yourself into where your normal boundaries, comfort zones, ability to self-isolate, etc. are removed.

I'm thinking that's a good thing. It's when we're laid bare that we learn who we really are. Don't u think?

And I'm curious what your take is on why we avoid pain? Emotional intensity?
I've been thinking about this. Not sure I really have the answer, but here are my thoughts anyway......Pain is by design a teacher, ie we learn that if something hurts stay away from it. But society has taken this to a new level by fostering the culture, mentality and value judgment that pain is 'bad'. Therefore is should be avoided at all times. As a result parents protect their children from experiencing pain- both physical and emotional. Television also teaches us to avoid pain. So, we have whole generations growing up thinking that pain has to be avoided- that it's bad/wrong. This makes us emotionally crippled because we're incapable of expressing, processing and accepting intense experiences and emotions.

Now, I don't mean everybody on the planet is incapable, but often anything that looks like strong emotion being expressed is frowned upon and discouraged. We're all supposed to remain calm. So then we do something like go to the movies and experience the strong emotions via the cathartic effect of some on-screen drama unfolding in front of us. That's our emotional outlet, that's the best we can do. Or, we watch some sports event or music concert- they all have the same effect- they help us feel.

Those two ideas are obviously related and yes I do think those situations are a good thing!! (Some of my favorite things... although with some of them I have to deal with that damn delayed gratification thing.)

I think you're mostly on target, but of course there's always more to it. You alluded to part of that in your answer to Badger's quip - the thing about how over time our culture has evolved to give greater value to thinking and logic and less to our sense of our emotional body. External tangible reality became more important. Part of how I see that movement to Utopia, paradigm evolution (or whatever you might call it) is the ways that people learn to use their emotions. Use them as a kind of pathway to find truth about themselves, or use them to gather more of the force of their personality, etc.
People sense their emotional intensity as being too uncontrollable (a good thing actually) or as being overwhelming (that's what anxiety is, avoiding going deeper into the morass). They see no value in going there.

Me2 · Post by **Me2** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 6:43 pm

gyre wrote:The opening scenes of The Horseman has a game.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buzkashi

http://www.afghan-network.net/Culture/buzkashi.html

It's at least on par with australian rules football.

You had me with the horses....but u lost me with the dead and headless calf/goat!! And although i'm sure some may argue, AFL doesn't involve an animal sacrifice.....gross....but it probably looks just as caotic!...or did u mean Rugby League?

P.S. No matter what Tina Turner drives i still can't forgive her for Thunderdome.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 7:04 pm

When Kon took Afgan they used beheaded people for there game.. Goats were used later..

Me2 · Post by **Me2** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 7:26 pm

People sense their emotional intensity as being too uncontrollable (a good thing actually) or as being overwhelming (that's what anxiety is, avoiding going deeper into the morass). They see no value in going there.

So we need an emotional revolution!!....how do we do that??

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 8:11 pm

It does seem to be a mongol game.
Some literature says it is based on stealing livestock.
In any case it's a game of skill and horsemanship.
It is also played with a bag of sand.
You could do that, right?

I think hanging about with lager lads and attending european football matches would be much more dangerous and not so much fun.

I can't think of another game that handicaps the person winning so much.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 8:23 pm

Kon was one mean SOB.. They did not take prisoners.. You eather rode with him or you were dead.. He had ways of making examples.. Removing your head was one of his fav's

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:09 pm

I think the afghans still believe they are mongol.
When russia invaded, my only thought was that they were really screwed.

I remember that guy who took a shot at Karzai.
A bystander jumped right in on top of him.
I can't picture that happening most places.

dana · Post by **dana** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 7:31 am

Me2 wrote:
People sense their emotional intensity as being too uncontrollable (a good thing actually) or as being overwhelming (that's what anxiety is, avoiding going deeper into the morass). They see no value in going there.
So we need an emotional revolution!!....how do we do that??

Actually the "revolution" is already quietly going on. People are gradually gaining a sense of the value of their emotions and developing more finesse in dealing with their own emotional depth. Take for instance the idea of being a "martyr". Some years back it seemed to me a very novel idea, but since then its become common knowledge.

Its happening in all kinds of ways: transpersonal psychology and other cognitve therapies, marriage counseling that teaches couples to be more responsive and vulnerable to their emotions, all kinds of "touchy feely" encounter groups - (some of which are a little over the top!!), pretty much anything that shows that possibility. Hell even those hokey TV shows like Oprah are modeling behavior for thousands to view. It all rubs off and gets incorporated eventually. People individually find something that works for them. If it had no actual value it would be rejected as only the latest passing fad.