Business 2.0 Article

[Fat SAM]

What an optomist you are, Sue. I wish I was able to view things in such a postitive light. In all sincerity...

[Lassen Forge]

Aw gee... thanks!

I figure it this way - we can only do what we can do. The org is going to do whatever it wants to, whether it's in our best intrests or whether it's what we want to happen or not. If we choose to go to their party, then we go. If we choose to boycott it, we boycott. Whatever *we* do, the event will be there this year. It may be the first year of a totally new Burning Man, it may mark the morphing of BRC into something... more urban... hell, it may be the last year of Burning Man at BlackRock. Who knows?

I look at things this way - I love the event as it is. I'm sad I missed it in years past when it truly was a wild and semi-anarchistic event. But if it implodes or turns to shit, and I end up doing something else... well, I did other things before I came out to do this gig.

It did get me to work on an art car. Got me re-interested in flying. And got me back to my roots. For that I am grateful. If it becomes a slimy, festering pit in the future, it will at least have those memories for me.

In essence - I may mourn it if it goes, but life goes on for all of us no matter what - even if we stop going there.

So - no one answered me - what day is the Pavillion Burn? )giggles( I wonder if the vendors will notice the whole Pavillion area is built on a burn blanket?

hugz...
bb

[LeChatNoir]

I think the burn date is still up in the air, maybe...

I think you've summed up the best approach, Sue. For life and the Burn...
We can influence how things happen to some degree, but in the end we do not make the decisions behind the closed doors. So we can only ride it for as long as it's good to do so.

Being a part of this event has been a very good thing for me, too. Hey... I wouldn't have met Karine without it, and she's the icing on a whole "Burning Man expierience" cake. So I'm just not ready to let go of it yet, and that's the part that makes me worry.

[BigCock]

I'm definitely looking forward to the Pavillion burn.

Which day is it on? )wince(

I arrive Monday, so I would suggest Monday, but people might think we meant Labor Day. So how about Tuesday?

[Just Watching]

I'm sad I missed it in years past when it truly was a wild and semi-anarchistic event.

As do many people. So, Sue - why don't some of the people expressing these regrets just start another event, one small enough to be below the radar screen of the authorities, the way Burning Man used to be? This is not a flippant rhetorical question. I'm seriously wondering where the fatalism comes from. Why be sad when you can do something about the thing you're sad about?

[dj_john69]

All of these protest ideas & polls are cute but if you want to leave a real impact....DONT FUCKING GO TO BURNING MAN THIS YEAR !!!!!!!!! Seems simple enough to me. If 1000 people dont go, this equals a noticeable loss of revenue for BMORG. Hell, tell your friends not to go either and maybe we can get the crowd down to 20,000 people total attending. Personally, id love to see it back to under 5000 people !!! Ahhhhh, the good ole days.

Seriously, if the theme and sponsers bother you that bad, why contribute to the cause ??

[Token]

Seriously, if the theme and sponsers bother you that bad, why contribute to the cause ??

'Kuz its a lot more fun to "Fuck Shit Upâ„¢" at the Pavilion then it is to stay home.

[Dork]

Seriously, if the theme and sponsers bother you that bad, why contribute to the cause ??

Becuase I still enjoy Burning Man and want it to remain a big part of my life. I just don't like this particular change that seems to be happening. Me not going won't make it a noticable difference. Neither will 1000. Even 10,000 could be explained away by yearly fluctuations and replaced via advertising. Getting rid of the loud mouths who feel ownership in the event would probably be viewed, in some ways, as a good thing.

[capjbadger]

Seriously, if the theme and sponsers bother you that bad, why contribute to the cause ??

Because if all the people that care enough about the event leave, who is left to make change?
No One...

Badger

[DaBomb]

Seriously, if the theme and sponsers bother you that bad, why contribute to the cause ??

Because if all the people that care enough about the event leave, who is left to make change?
No One...

Badger

How is change effected when the BMorg doesn't even engage in dialogue and feedback from it's customer base...oops...I meant "community" (drink!).

Are you suggesting that those folks on the board of the LLC continue to *tell us* what this event is about? Because that's what the deal is. All decisions come from the top down and not through dialogue. It's more about "Corporation vs Community" and little about the Corporation in partnership with their Community.

(drink! drink! drink!)

sorry!

hiccup!

[madmatt]

I just went back and saw the ad...I didn't even notice it and just went straight to the article. We all just got sold...

Agreed. I saw the article first and was to put it lightly, disheartened. Then I saw the ad and was terrified.

I want to bring a petition to the playa this year to let BMORG know that this doesn't sit well with people. I am sure they'll hear it from enough people, but maybe a stack of thousands of signatures would really say something. Anyone else feel like this might be useful?

I'm going to have to really enjoy myself this year, because I don't know how I'm going to feel about it if it gets any worse....

I agree - let's do a giant petition, and make it into a project of protest. By the way, that way, we'll "own" it again too.

[madmatt]

I'm definitely looking forward to the Pavillion burn.

Which day is it on? )wince(

I arrive Monday, so I would suggest Monday, but people might think we meant Labor Day. So how about Tuesday?

Bwahahahaha! I arrive Sunday, so the Pavillion Burn could be Sunday, but if you wait until Weds or so, more people would be able to enjoy it.

Let's make some big neon sign with EL wire and erect it next to the "Pavillion" saying "Don't Miss the Amazing Pavillion Burn, Here Wednesday Night."

Or just start some rumors that some scary burners are plotting to torch it for real, and get the buzz going so loudly that the companies decide it's not such a good idea to have their stuff there, and they pull out.

[Zulegoona]

But who’s going to calculate the carbon footprint and buy the carbon offsets?

[DaBomb]

Just to prove the point: I went to send an e-mail to "[email protected]" as listed here on the BM website on a page entitled "CONNECTING WITH THE COMMUNITY: Feedback Loop" (posted 9/21/2006) (see http://www.burningman.com/news/comm_feedback_06.html) the e-mail came back with the message "Recipient address rejected: User unknown in virtual mailbox table."

[MozyBonz]

[Chai Guy]

Just to prove the point: I went to send an e-mail to "[email protected]" as listed here on the BM website on a page entitled "CONNECTING WITH THE COMMUNITY: Feedback Loop" (posted 9/21/2006) (see http://www.burningman.com/news/comm_feedback_06.html) the e-mail came back with the message "Recipient address rejected: User unknown in virtual mailbox table

.

We Don't Care.

We Don't Have To Care.

We're Burning Man LLC.

[madmatt]

But who’s going to calculate the carbon footprint and buy the carbon offsets?

Not me! I tossed around that idea with our camp, and it became clear that people didn't want to pay for it. Instead I got a couple hundred free trees to plant. The carbon offsets all turned out to involve tree planting anyway, so this is more tangible.

[karine]

Yeah - on tribe all the hippies are talking about sticking pennies on the pavillion because they think it will make it burn green.

[LeChatNoir]

I was thinking today about all of this and something came to mind.

Burners Without Borders in Mississippi could never have accomplished what was accomplished without the aid of an international heavy equipment company that donated two big machines… an Excavator and a Front End Loader.

This was probably$600K worth of machinery given to an effort down there run by a bunch of burners. And without it, it would not have been anything close to what it was in terms of positively affecting people.

So I’m puzzling on a question, and I’m very serious here when I ask this…

What’s the difference between that and a company donating solar panels to light The Man?

Now hear me out... I don’t’ know how this greening crap is going to go down and I‘m paying close attention, but assuming it goes without any mention of company names, etc, how does this differ?

The biggest difference I can see is that it’s actually happening on the playa. The BWB did their stuff in the other 51 weeks, but this is happening on the “sacred groundâ€

[EB]

Hey Lechat,

I think it's all about intent.

I'm assuming from your post that the companies who lent out the expensive equipment to Burners Without Borders were attempting to do their part in a time of need. Afterwhich, the costs of loaning out their rigs was probably never re-couped by any of the benefits (i.e. good PR.)

Big corporations can do great, alturistic things, no argument here.

However, when we're talking about lighting the Man, it's a little different. There's no pressing need to illuminate a wooden Man (with solar lighting or otherwise) in the middle of the Nevada desert. These companies are not building homes or saving lives with their donations; they're showcasing their products.

Now, are these products that are worth "bending the rules" to showcase?

Maybe. Probably. Sure. I don't really know, frankly. I think that's where the shit storm comes up. The Orgs painted some of us into a corner.

If you're opening the door to some companies to showcase their stuff or film tv shows, well, that toothpaste doesn't go back into the tube that easily (see the TATTOO ANTHROPOLOGIST thread.)

But if you speak up against this pavillion, suddenly your getting on the radar screens of those who'll be quick to label you "anti-green." Or even worse you get the "Burning Man: Love it or Leave it (TM) blowback from the snipers.

My .$02. At the very least, it's good to talk about, right?

[Chai Guy]

[Nickel]

Monzy that is hilarious. It really is. This is exactly the "vibe" I feel is needed if everything comes off all too corporate. I'm still holding out hope that it will all be something cool and in spirit, as I do trust M Coollette (we've been friends for many years, and I didn't realize it was her firm that helped set this all up when I started the thread!), but I also know that if it's an attempt to further a brand even if it is in some "no logo/brand" sneak attack, I won't be happy with it.

I don't have any issues with the funded Waffle of last year, or having a project show off a companies technology, but when it becomes a sanctioned event that companies are going to be there, and there is going to be an active way to know who they are and why they came, it starts to feel like advertising.

I'm excited to see how it all turns out. If it's not advertising, we'll all be really excited by it (It's all going to be cool tech either way I'm sure), and if it turns out to be just product pushing, the uproar will be legendary, and amazing in an entirely different way.

A small side note:
I'm more excited to see LeChat's tech though, I've been following that thread and it all looks very interesting. Good work on that one!

[DaBomb]

Hey Lechat,
These companies are not building homes or saving lives with their donations; they're showcasing their products.

There's a term for this: quid quo pro.

Wikipedia: "In legal usage, quid pro quo indicates that an item or a favor has been traded in return for something of value, usually when the propriety or equity of the transaction is in question. For example, under the common law, a binding contract must involve consideration: that is, the exchange of something of value for something of economic value. If the exchange appears excessively one sided, the court may question whether a quid pro quo exists and the contract may be voidable."

For a company such as BMorg that espouses the creation "social environments that are unmediated by commercial sponsorships, transactions, or advertising" this strikes me as hypocrisy.

So what I would like to know is what were the terms of the contract -- er I mean the invitation -- that the businesses signed off on in order to "display" their merchandise. It's another term I think is useful in this case: transparency.

[DaBomb]

[Lassen Forge]

I'm sad I missed it in years past when it truly was a wild and semi-anarchistic event.

As do many people. So, Sue - why don't some of the people expressing these regrets just start another event, one small enough to be below the radar screen of the authorities, the way Burning Man used to be? This is not a flippant rhetorical question. I'm seriously wondering where the fatalism comes from. Why be sad when you can do something about the thing you're sad about?

Because it'd do like this one did - explode. It'd be fun and kewl and everyone would want a part of it, and you'd go from 500 to 5000 to 50000.

Just likie BRC. You think when the Baker Beach Bunch went out there they envisioned this massive event in Nevada? HA HA ha ha ha ha...

It takes certain things - Vision (easy), Input of time, talent and treasure, A core team of equals, without egos (or at least with equal egos) dedicated to it, Integrity, and the ability and desire to be a target and take the headaches and ulcers for the fun and joy pf watching your baby blossom. And a "fan base" who dig your vision enough to want to be a part of it. And the willingness to take a HUGE risk.

Just like starting your own business. Sure, I'd dig doing it. but then again, ya can't sit on the sidelines and throw monkey poo at it and treat it as a hobby - it becomes your life. Ask anyone on the current BOD of BRC llc. And ya can't circle jerk it - it's all or nothing. Half measures don't just avail you nothing - it's a recipie for disaster.

That takes guts, and most folk don't have *that* kind of ovaries/cajones to put that kind of investment into something.

BTW - I actualy have an idea for this kind of event, it'd work, it'd take off, and it'd be fun. Interested? Dare to stick your neck out, knowing it will probably get cut off, but may be fun until then? The hard part - can you or are you willing to commit to the long haul, the hard work shit, the ulcers ahd headaches, and not be a circle-jerker or make a half hearted namby pamby tweaker effort, but stick it out for the long fucking haul??

It could even happen in the desert.

Soooo.... to paraphrase the California Milk Commercials - Got Guts?

bb

[Sensei]

Christmas on a cracker! I go to our regional for a few days (Seattle's Critical Massive, and yes I had a most fabulous time - thank you Temple Whores!) and... where was I? Oh yeah... and I get back to this shitstorm. Honestly people, this is why we can't have nice things.

I'm a little fuzzy on this whole Pavilion concept thingy since I always seem to blow right past that home page (the black one) and head straight to the comics here. I guess I have a question. I think it's a question, anyway.

Is the idea here to let us - and by 'us' I mean someone more competent than myself - hack the shit out of these un-logo-ed products and the technology therein? 'Cause that sounds like potential fun. I'd only electrocute myself of course, but I'm betting some of you could make some interesting misfit toys. Who knows, somebody might even eventually come up with novel applications for this stuff - like say, those Burners Without Borders people and how they might use it for their next New Orleans/3rd world type adventure.

Or is it something that we are to simply ooh and ahh over?

Seriously though, can I put my tongue on it?

How about this? You get to show off your nifty alien technology (products), but if we find them dull or don't like the way they/you are being presented, we get to use Jim Mason's fire cannons on them. Deal? Probably not.

I'll decide when I see for myself. I'm warning you now though, I fucking hate World's Fairs. I really, really do.

[Captain Goddammit]

Hello

I'm from the Antenna Group and this will be my 3rd burn. My boss, Melody Haller, is a wonderful woman. I think you all should save your judgments for August and the playa.

Burning man has always been controversial and always will be. Maybe this is a good way to shake people up a bit.

AND don't be mistaken - BM would never ever allow corporate branding on the playa. That is NOT what is going to happen.

Instead, think of it as environmental technology education. We're a PR firm dedicated to eco tech and Burning Man. We are simply bringing some fascinating and wonderful technology to the playa for education purposes. We're facilitating a conversation between companies trying to make a difference and thousands of people who are really good at participating.

There are a lot of things that go on out there, dirty evil things and I've seen them. There is also a TON of love and positivity as well. I think we should wait and see how the companies choose to represent their technologies before we say this is wrong and how dare you. Burning Man has always thrived on controversy and being radical. Think of this as the next step in that direction. And do some research to find out the real story.

My 2 cents.

Miss Coolette

You're a PR firm... that says it all, virtually guarantees that you'll find tactful and diplomatic ways to spew complete bullshit.

I'm glad to hear that you're not trying to advertise or sell anything, that you're just there to EDUCATE us about your products.

I'm already all set to go this year, but I have plenty of other interests and DO have the "guts" to forget Burning Man when you screw it up.

[madmatt]

I love you DaBomb!

[madmatt]

...it's really hard to see what points have already been made where....I've lost track of how many places this talk is playing out....there have been a lot of things presented out of context and or downright distorted...

Is any of this registering with you? Is it not clear that y'all have made a huge mistake? How loudly and in how many different ways do you need to hear that burners reject this?

"it's hard to see what points have been made?" - are you friggin serious?

"presented out of context?" - actually, that is what your "Pavillion" aka trade show is. Out of context. How can you not understand that?

[madmatt]

...Instead, think of it as environmental technology education. We're a PR firm dedicated to eco tech and Burning Man. We are simply bringing some fascinating and wonderful technology to the playa for education purposes. We're facilitating a conversation between companies trying to make a difference and thousands of people who are really good at participating.

Oh my god are you totally serious with this crap?????

You want to educate us???????

You're a PR firm dedicated to eco tech?????

Who the hell do you think you're educating here?????

First of all, talk about preaching to the choir. If ever there was a place where your PR and educational work has already been done and doesn't need to be done, it's at Burning Man you fool.

You're bringing some fascinating and wonderful technology to the playa?????? - yes you're right, there is a screaming lack of fascinating and wonderful technology on the playa. What is most wonderful about it, in my opinion, is that it may be the only place in the world where people put it there without trying to sell it to you or EDUCATE YOU!!!!!!

Go build an art car if you want to accomplish those things.