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[DVD Burner]

Here are some more facts for Joel so that we have an understanding of what each other is talking about.

each of these goes in chronological order.
Not the links, the information within.







i'll get back to Wilson in a bit. it's all related.

[joel the ornery]

question.

you place no responsibility for civilian deaths on the opposition?

[DVD Burner]

question.

you place no responsibility for civilian deaths on the opposition?

Ok, let's get back to Wilson.


If Bush, Cheney and the bunch didn't LIE, Pandora's box would not have been opened.

In other words, you dont start a fight you cant finish or win.

America will continually get their ass kicked in Iraq as long as they feel they need to be there.

Civilian deaths happen on both sides from both sides in war.

Only a fool doesn't know that before going into any kind of war.

[joel the ornery]

you didn't answer the question directly, or completely.

you steered away from it, 'cause my question shows the fallibility of your argument.

[DVD Burner]

I'm a straight to the point person.

There is no such thing in me not answering a question directly. Either I answer a question or I dont.

I answered your question. In fact I'll repeat the answer for you:

Civilian deaths happen on both sides from both sides in war.

Only a fool doesn't know that before going into any kind of war.

[joel the ornery]

Civilian deaths happen on both sides from both sides in war.

who do you hold responsible for the civilian deaths?

[DVD Burner]

Grab some more coffee dude.

Seems you are having a tough time with the English language.

[joel the ornery]

once again, you avoid answering a direct question.

i do hold american forces responsible for their actions... and those participating in criminal activities do get prosecuted. maybe not to your liking, but they do get prosecuted.

yet i also hold the insurgency for terrorism against the civilian population.

you know the car bombs... that indiscriminately kill innocents.



we certainly didn't put that car bomb there.

can you wrap your head around that concept?

[DVD Burner]

Ok, now this is some really funny shit:




U.S. eager and it shows in Iraq



http://www.examiner.com/a-815250~U_S__e ... Qaeda.html

Jul 6, 2007 8:03 AM (4 hrs ago)
by Rowan Scarborough, The Examiner

Washington DC (Map, News) - The U.S. command in Baghdad this week ballyhooed the killing of a key al Qaeda leader but later admitted that the military had declared him dead a year ago.

A military spokesman acknowledged the mistake after it was called to his attention by The Examiner. He said public affairs officers will be more careful in announcing significant kills.

The incident shows the eagerness of the command to show progress in dismantling al Qaeda at a time when Democrats and some Republicans are pressing President Bush to withdraw troops from Iraq. Army Gen. David Petraeus, the top U.S. commander, has declared al Qaeda enemy No. 1 in Iraq.

Brig. Gen. Kevin Bergner began his Monday news conference with a list of top insurgents either killed or captured in recent operations. He said they had been eliminated "in the past few weeks" and were "recent results."
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"In the north, Iraqi army and coalition forces continue successful operations in Mosul," he told reporters. "Kamal Jalil Uthman, also known as Said Hamza, was the al Qaeda in Iraq military emir of Mosul. He planned, coordinated and facilitated suicide bombings, and he facilitated the movement of more than a hundred foreign fighters through safe houses in the area." All told, Bergner devoted 68 words to Uthman's demise.

Uthman was indeed a big kill, and the military featured his death last year in a report titled "Tearing Down al Qaeda."

"The more we can bring down al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations, the greater probability of reducing violence," Army Maj. Gen. William Caldwell, the command's chief spokesman said, in 2006.

Uthman was listed in the 2006 news release as "the chief of military operations [in] Mosul."

When The Examiner pointed out that Uthman's death had been announced twice, a command spokesman said in an e-mail, "You are correct that we did previously announce that we killed him. This was a roll up to show an overall effort against [al Qaeda in Iraq]. We can probably do a better job on saying 'previously announced' when we do long-term roll ups to show an overall effort."

[DVD Burner]

once again, you avoid answering a direct question.

i do hold american forces responsible for their actions... and those participating in criminal activities do get prosecuted. maybe not to your liking, but they do get prosecuted.

yet i also hold the insurgency for terrorism against the civilian population.

you know the car bombs... that indiscriminately kill innocents.

It's too bad you are so heavily brainwashed that you cant see the forest for the trees.

First of all you fail to face the reality that if the American forces were not in Iraq in the first place, there would not be any so called "insurgency".
In fact, there never were any "insurgency" types in Iraq till U.S. forces got into Iraq.
America picked the fight not Iraq.
Now America is getting their ass kicked and people like Joel are crying "Foul". What a joke.

[joel the ornery]

foul?

no... i just want people like yourself to understand, the USA isn't responsible for all the killing.

and... there wasn't an insurgency... correct. there was a blood thirsty killer/leader... Saddam Hussein

As president, Saddam maintained power through a combination of the skilful use of patronage and the employment of systematic state terror, aided by a pervasive security apparatus. Upwards of 200,000 people were estimated to have been killed or "disappeared" during his rule, and at least a million more were killed during the Iran-Iraq War (1980-1988) and the first Persian Gulf War (1991); he was dubbed the "Butcher of Baghdad" for the scale of bloodshed that he incurred[2] and reportedly embraced the nickname.[3] During and after these conflicts, Saddam used large-scale repression to crush rebellions he deemed threatening to the stability of Iraq, particularly Shi'a and Kurdish movements seeking to overthrow the government or gain independence, respectively. While he attracted support from the Arab public outside Iraq for opposing the United States and Israel,[4], the international community continued to view Saddam with deep suspicion following the 1991 Gulf War. Iraq remained subject to crippling international sanctions until the 2003 invasion of Iraq by the United States and its allies.

now.... if Saddam had just complied with 16 UM Resolutions... yeah, 16.

he might be alive today, and still in charge of Iraq.

but, that's history for ya!

[DVD Burner]

Wikkipedia is not reliable but that's neither here nor there.

Fact is, it didn't matter whether or not Saddam complied or not. There were never any WMD's in Iraq.

You know why?

CAUSE BUSH AND FRIENDS WERE LYING TO YOU.

That is the fact jack.

I should feel sorry for the military over in Iraq getting the shit blown out of them?

[joel the ornery]

sooo, it seems no matter what evidence i use, you won't accept it.

fine.

accept this... if we ever meet... i am going to water your leg, more than once, over and over.

think it as "irrigation for your brain to grow."

[DVD Burner]

[DVD Burner]

You know what's funny? The millitary thought Iraq was gonna be a piece of cake.

Here is another funny one for Joel: http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/120.html

[Archantael]

Wikkipedia is not reliable but that's neither here nor there.

Blanket B.S. statement. Some of the articles on Wikipedia are tied to rock solid cites..it's just like anything else in that you need to read the fine print and screen the sources.

[DVD Burner]

Wikkipedia is not reliable but that's neither here nor there.

Blanket B.S. statement. Some of the articles on Wikipedia are tied to rock solid cites..it's just like anything else in that you need to read the fine print and screen the sources.

There is nothing blanket about the statement. It is a fact that wikkipedia is not accurate. The creator of wikkipedia has admitted as such.
There is no way for wikkipedia to ever be accurate as long as there is the option for any and everyone, scholar or not to make changes to it.

This was again proven the day Chris Benoit died. His wife's death was posted on the wikki 14 hours before the cops knew she was dead. Turns out the posting on the wikki was a fluke and a hoax. The person that posted on the wikki did it as a joke and was not aware she and the family was actually dead.

These types of postings on the wikki are quite common.

[joel the ornery]

Federation of American Scientists

War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity

Saddam Hussein seized power in 1979. The list of war crimes and crimes against humanity committed by Saddam Hussein and his regime is a long one. It includes:

• The use of poison gas and other war crimes against Iran and the Iranian people during the 1980-88 Iran-Iraq war. Iraq summarily executed thousands of Iranian prisoners of war as a matter of policy.

• The "Anfal" campaign in the late 1980's against the Iraqi Kurds, including the use of poison gas on cities. In one of the worst single mass killings in recent history, Iraq dropped chemical weapons on Halabja in 1988, in which as many as 5,000 people -- mostly civilians -- were killed.

• Crimes against humanity and war crimes arising out of Iraq's 1990-91 invasion and occupation of Kuwait.

• Crimes against humanity and possibly genocide against Iraqi Kurds in northern Iraq. This includes the destruction of over 3,000 villages. The Iraqi government's campaign of forced deportations of Kurdish and Turkomen families to southern Iraq has created approximately 900,000 internally displaced citizens throughout the country.

• Crimes against humanity and possibly genocide against Marsh Arabs and Shi'a Arabs in southern Iraq. Entire populations of villages have been forcibly expelled. Government forces have burned their houses and fields, demolished houses with bulldozers, and undertaken a deliberate campaign to drain and poison the marshes. Thousands of civilians have been summarily executed.

• Possible crimes against humanity for killings, ostensibly against political opponents, within Iraq.

dvd.... would this be an acceptable source in your world?

[DVD Burner]

Sure! That works.



Still dont see where Saddam had any WMD's

[Archantael]

It's accurate enough to be functional, and sometimes that's all you need.

Edit: Saddam didn't have any WMD's. All he had was that megacannon that would qualify as a WMD. Otherwise the only WMD's you'll find there would be some of the weapons we brought in country.

[DVD Burner]

US military probe new allegations of Iraq war crimes

AFP



http://www.metimes.com/storyview.php?St ... 0211-3612r


July 3, 2007

SAN DIEGO, CA, USA -- The US military said Tuesday it is investigating "credible allegations" of wrongdoing by US marines in Iraq during fighting in Fallujah three years ago.

Responding to reports that marines allegedly killed several Iraqi prisoners of war, Naval Criminal Investigative Service (NCIS) spokesman Ed Buice said in a statement a probe was now under way.

"NCIS can confirm that it is conducting an investigation into credible allegations of wrongdoing made against US marines concerning actions said to have taken place in Fallujah, Iraq in the fall of 2004," the statement said.

"The Naval Criminal Investigative Service is a fact-finding organization and information gathered will be presented to the appropriate authority who will decide whether further action is warranted."

No further information about the nature of the allegations was revealed. Reports in the North County Times, a local daily newspaper published close to the marines' massive southern California base at Camp Pendleton, near San Diego, said the probe related to deaths of up to eight Iraqi insurgents.

Multiple sources cited by the newspaper said the inquiry was studying the conduct of between five to 10 marines involved in fierce fighting for control of Fallujah three years ago.

The newspaper cited a source with knowledge of the investigation as saying that around 20 current and former soldiers had been interviewed and that several had been read their rights, an indication that criminal charges may eventually be laid.

The report said the eight insurgents were shot dead after being captured November 10, 2004. Under military law, the killing of a captured enemy combatant who does not pose a threat is treated as murder.

The probe is the third high-profile war crimes case involving marines from Camp Pendleton.

Seven marines face charges ranging from murder to dereliction of duty in connection with the killing of 24 Iraqi civilians in the town of Haditha in November 2005.

In a separate incident, seven marines and a Navy medic have faced charges over the murder of an Iraqi civilian in the town of Hamdania in April last year. Five have already been sentenced in connection with the case.

[joel the ornery]

gee, is the insurgency holding courts martial to see if their members committed atrocities against civilians?

um, my guess is NO.

[DVD Burner]

No but these guys should be tried in Iraq by Iraqis.

[joel the ornery]

No but these guys should be tried in Iraq by Iraqis.

these guys, as in US soldiers?

oh, i don't think so.

[DVD Burner]

these guys, as in US soldiers?

oh, i don't think so.

Riiight!


You like results like what I posted before:

Iraq probe into soldier incident

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 264614.stm

A wide array of weapons reportedly taken from the men was shown
The Iraqi government has launched an inquiry into the events that led the British Army to stage a dramatic rescue of two UK soldiers detained by police.
Both men were members of the SAS elite special forces, sources told the BBC's Richard Galpin in Baghdad.

The soldiers were arrested by police and then handed over to a militia group, the British Army says.

Iraq's interior ministry ordered the police force in Basra to release the soldiers but that order was ignored.

Defence Secretary John Reid told reporters that a delegation of six British military personnel, including a legal officer, had been sent to the police station to ease the release of the men.

Mr Reid said surveillance had established the men were being moved to another location, while at the same time an angry crowd posed an obstacle to the departure of the six-strong team.


These wigs and clothing were said to be from the same cache

The British commander on the ground, Brigadier John Lorimer, ordered British forces to move into the police station to help the team.

Almost simultaneously, a separate operation was staged to rescue the men from the place where they had been moved to.

It is understood force was also used in this operation, although there were no casualties as the Shia militia holding the British soldiers fled.

The episode saw a wall flattened at the police station by a British armoured personnel carrier, but Mr Reid said the coalition was still going "in the right direction" in terms of its overall strategy in Iraq and said this incident was merely "local".

Basra governor Mohammed al-Waili said the men - possibly working undercover - were arrested for allegedly shooting dead a policeman and wounding another.


British Army vehicles under attack during bid to recover arrested servicemen


In pictures


Richard Galpin said al-Jazeera news channel footage, purportedly of the equipment carried in the men's car, showed assault rifles, a light machine gun, an anti-tank weapon, radio gear and medical kit.

This is thought to be standard kit for the SAS operating in such a theatre of operations, he said.

The British rescue mission sparked angry protests from locals in which vehicles were attacked and set on fire.

Haydar al-Abadi, a spokesman for Iraqi Prime Minister Ibrahim al-Jaafari, said the British rescue had been "a very unfortunate development".

"My understanding is that, first, it happened very quickly. Second, there is lack of discipline in the whole area regarding this matter...

We remain committed to helping the Iraqi government for as long as they judge that a coalition presence is necessary

Defence Secretary John Reid
Watch John Reid


Timeline: UK troops in Iraq
How events unfolded

"It is a very unfortunate development that the British forces should try to release their soldiers the way it happened, it's very unfortunate."

Soon afterwards, the Iraqi prime minister's office released a statement insisting there was no crisis in relations with the British.

"In response to recent events in Basra, the Iraqi government wants to clarify that there is no 'crisis' - as some media have claimed - between it and the British government.

"Both governments are in close contact, and an inquiry will be conducted by the Iraqi Ministry of the Interior into the incident.

"We will await the outcome of that inquiry. In the meantime we urge all sides to remain calm."

HAVE YOUR SAY
Pulling out at this stage would be irresponsible

Richard, London, UK


Send us your comments

Brigadier John Lorimer said it was of "deep concern" the men detained by police ended up held by Shia militia, something that put their lives in danger.

In a statement, Brig Lorimer said that under Iraqi law the soldiers should have been handed over to coalition authorities, but this failed to happen despite repeated requests.

The Conservatives' defence spokesman Michael Ancram has accused the government of "uncertainty" over its strategy in Iraq, while the Lib Dem leader Charles Kennedy said Iraq was drifting towards civil war.

Tensions were already high in Basra on Monday morning following the detention on Sunday of a senior figure in the Shia Mehdi Army, suspected of being behind a series of attacks on British troops.

[DVD Burner]

By THOMAS WATKINS
Associated Press Writer

SAN DIEGO - An ex-Marine at the center of a probe into whether Camp Pendleton troops killed between five and 10 unarmed captives during a battle in Iraq is a hero who faced vicious enemies, his lawyer said Friday.

Former Cpl. Ryan Weemer sought a lawyer earlier this year because he was concerned Naval Criminal Investigative Service agents wanted to question him, attorney Paul Hackett of Cincinnati said.

"Weemer is an American hero," Hackett said. "Every American should be on their hands and knees thanking their god that there are men in the American military like Ryan Weemer doing the heavy lifting their country requires."

Weemer, 24, is at the center of a military probe into the actions of his squad in Fallujah on or about Nov. 10, 2004.

The investigation was launched after Weemer left the Marines and applied for a job with the Secret Service, according to a military writer, Nathaniel Helms, who interviewed him last year. Weemer described the killings of the suspected insurgents when asked before a polygraph test if he had ever participated in a wrongful death.

Hackett declined to comment on Weemer's discussions with the Secret Service but said his client had not yet spoken to the Naval Criminal Investigative Service.

Helms, however, said Weemer told him he spoke to the NCIS in April or May 2006.

Weemer was a rifleman in a four-man fireteam in the 3rd Platoon, Kilo Company, 3rd Battalion, 1st Marines, Hackett said. Lt. Col. Willard A. Buhl, commander of the battalion at the time of the alleged killings, declined to comment on the investigation Friday.

"I like to let the justice (system) work itself through procedurally," Buhl said.

Helms said Weemer told him about the killings last year for a book he was writing on Fallujah, saying the suspected insurgents had been held in an abandoned house after being captured in combat.

One of the Marines radioed headquarters for guidance on what to do. The group's leader interpreted the response, "They're still alive?" as an order to kill, Helms said Friday. According to the account, the captives were then shot, but Helms said he did not know if Weemer was one of those to fire his weapon.

Helms went on to speak to several other members of Weemer's platoon but none of them corroborated the story.

"I asked everyone I interviewed, no one else knew about it," Helms said.

Attempts to reach Weemer, who now lives in Kentucky, were unsuccessful, but his sister Felicia Hudson told The Associated Press on Thursday that he was trying to put the situation behind him and take college courses.

Fallujah was the scene of two fierce Marine battles in 2004, including the deadly November offensive against insurgents that produced heavy casualties on both sides.

Hackett said his client was involved in some of that battle's most ferocious fighting, including a bloody, close-quarters attack on an insurgent holdout. Weemer was awarded a Purple Heart after sustaining injuries in the attack.

Hackett described Fallujah at the time as a gruesome place where combat rules were continually changing. A few days after the alleged killings, Hackett said it was acceptable for Marines to kill suspected insurgents even if they were unarmed "due to the ferociousness of the fight."

Other members of Weemer's company in were later accused of wrongdoing in the killings of 24 civilians in Haditha in 2005.

Camp Pendleton Marines are the focus of two high-profile criminal cases, including the Haditha case in which three enlisted Marines are charged with murder, and four officers are charged with failing to investigate the deaths.

The Marines say they are innocent because the deaths were the result of lawful combat.

The killing of the 5-10 captives came to light after one Ex-Marine applied for the CIA . During the selection process he was asked, if he ever was involved in an unjustified killing ( or similar).....it seems he said YES...and the CIA informed shortly after the Pentagon.

[DVD Burner]

Lets see how long it takes before Weemer blows a gasket.



Oh how many more will come back and come into the same situation.
They will be an issue down the road if and when enough of these guys get back and do poly's and applying for jobs they wont get because of certain things that they did in Iraq.

[DVD Burner]

Got a question for anyone that can give me any kind of answer to this question.

What does Bush and Cheney have to hide by defying the congressional subpoenas the way they are doing?


Can someone answer that for me please?





No.....seriously?

[Bin Noddin]

Ummm - - - it's the principle of the thing, I think. They are principled men. Yes, that's it.

[Bin Noddin]

Oh, seriously - same thing Nixon tried when he was cornered and desperate. Separation of powers and executive privilege. Reasonable principles, if reasonably asserted. Sit back and see how this one plays out. Is there another Scooter out there who will be convicted of some vaguely peripheral offense while the real fuckups walk once again?