How Fuel efficient is your car?

diane o'thirst · Post by **diane o'thirst** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:55 pm

It gets better, folks â€”

The governor of Oregon signed into law a bill that would give tax credits, up to $400, for people who tank up with biofuels. Doesn't quite cover the cost of converting in one year but it will in two years' time.

Yeah, it's politicians talking to businesses' bottom line and leading the People into it by the nose, but I'm not going to quibble. It's all good.

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:38 am

My Dodge 250 diesel normally gets 20 mpg at 75. I've noticed that the mileage is getting better day by day. This may be affected by the fact that I'm laid up in bed with a smashed heel and broken ankle. I haven't tested out this theory ,,,,yet.

diane o'thirst · Post by **diane o'thirst** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:00 am

smashed heel and broken ankle

Hyoiks!! How'd that happen?

joel the ornery · Post by **joel the ornery** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:02 am

fell off a ladder, i believe.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:05 am

All engines improve in efficiency with wear as friction is reduced, up to the point that there is more loss due to compression losses.
Of course, oil consumption goes up with ring wear.

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:58 am

The IC engine is just an air pump. The effeciency of the IC engine is controlled by intake/exhaust parameters. The more that you can vary the parameters, the better the effeciency. I believe NASCAR was the first to get rid of the camshaft. This changed a formerly "fixed" parameter to a variable.
International Harvester was the first to adopt this technology for trucks. They can vary valve timing and duration along with fuel variables,,, via electronic fuel injection. Their smaller engines [<8> liter] get impressive mileage. I'm not sure if any large engines have gone to electronic valve control, but Cummins has had manual variable timing for the camshaft for years.
In the old days of Detroit diesels, trucks got about 4 mpg on average. With aerodynamic and engine improvements, the average OTR trucks ,80,000 lbs. get just under 8 mpg. This is about the same mileage that an earlier Ford Bronco got.
I believe that I read that trucks consume 1/6 of the fuel in this country. Truck mileage is very important. Personal transportation is part necessary,,, part elective. Trucks are, for the most part, necessary.
Our rail system has gone to shit, partly because of our infatuation with cars and partly because of government negligence promulagted by the oil companies. It takes 6 times as much energy to move a ton of freight on rubber tires as it does on steel wheels.
All trains are diesel/electric. It makes obvious sense to convert them to electric. This would free up more fuel for trucks that don't lend themselves to electrification. It would also clean up the air because power plants are much cleaner than locomotive engines per KW produced.

All industrial transportation is with diesel. Most ships that were formerly run on bunker oil have converted to diesel. Trucks and tractors are diesel. Most aircraft use JP4 which is quite similar to diesel 1
When all is said and done, diesel fuel is the most critical need. Our huge population is maintained by diesel supported agriculture.
The Chinese have just completed a coal to diesel plant with proprietary technology. I don't know it's effeciency or water consumption. Maybe we should get Bill Clinton to ask them for the technology.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:04 pm

Maybe this should be in the fuck thread but..

I may be about the get the greates gas mileage..

JUst back from the doctors.. This fucking disease is after my drivers lic... I can no longer feel the pedals under my feet.. Now I have to take a test to prove I can drive safely.. For the past four years I have had to watch the tac to keep a steady speed.. Now there worried I can not apply proper brake pressure.. Or get the leg to react timely.. Same shit with the arms and hands..

I have driven almost every thing with wheels, track or rudder.. This trip fucking sucks..

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:19 pm

When did nascar get rid of the cam?
Were they before the total independent control in other formulas?

Variable cams go back a bit.
Desmodromic valves go back at least to the 50s.
Pneumatic seems to be the method of choice so far for valves.

Unjon, I hope you get through the test and can drive safely.

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:41 pm

Gyre, I may have mixed NASCAR with Formula 1,,,, dunno. The current diesels without camshafts use 10,000 to 20,000 lbs oil pressure to lift the valves. It's controlled by a very fast acting solenoid controlled valve. The ones that I'm familiar with are from NAVISTAR.
I also read that the 100,000 HP Wartzilla engines have variable valve control.
Harley!!! that's really the shits about your condition. This isn't the thread for it bit I'm going to put it here anyway. I also have just a bit of nueropathy in the balls of my feet. There is some indication that it's connected to all my ingestion of heavy metals. Search on "intraveneous chelation" It will get rid of ALL the bad in your body. Last thing; the absolute latest research shows a very strong correlation between excess iron and disease. Some types of cancer cells contain 1000 times as much iron as normal tissue. I've read very strong proofs about the connection. PM me for other info. We're all part of the larger family of man. WE all need to look out for each other.
Dan

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:52 pm

Diesels that are slow revving would be much easier to do.
Formula one was using infinitely variable pneumatic control a long time ago.
I'm not sure if they still are.
A lot of active controls are banned now.
They were running on megacomputers for awhile.
Active suspension, engine, etc.
All of it got switched to Gruppe B for awhile.
That was a dream

Variable cams can be very limited, by comparison.

Even direct injection has a lot of potential.

Green Wood · Post by **Green Wood** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:32 pm

Hummer owner gets angry message
Vandals batter D.C. man's SUV, slash its tires and scratch in an eco note

Lois Raimondo / Washington Post
Gareth Groves bought a Hummer, parked in on the street outside his home, and less than a week after he had Washington, D.C., tags, it was vandalized with windows and headlights smashed, tires slashed and the metal body chopped with a machete-like tool.
View related photos MSNBC video

Real Hum-dinger
July 18: Witnesses say two masked men smashed the windows of the hulking SUV with baseball bats and slashed the tires just five days after it was purchased.
Updated: 8:37 a.m. ET July 18, 2007
WASHINGTON - On a narrow, leafy street in Northwest Washington, where Prius hybrid cars and Volvos are the norm, one man bought a flashy gray Hummer that was too massive to fit in his garage.

So he parked the seven-foot-tall behemoth on the street in front of his house and smiled politely when his eco-friendly neighbors looked on in disapproval at his "dream car."

It lasted five days on the street before two masked men took a bat to every window, a knife to each 38-inch tire and scratched into the body: "FOR THE ENVIRON."

"The thought of somebody vandalizing it never crossed my mind," said Gareth Groves, 32, who lives with his mother in a three-story home in the 3400 block of Brandywine Street NW in American University Park. "I've kind of been in shock."

Looks of satisfaction
Now, as Groves ponders what to do with the remains of his $38,000 SUV, he has been the target of a number of people who have driven by the crime scene in his upscale neighborhood and glared at him in smug satisfaction.

"I'd say one in five people who come by have that 'you-got-what-you-deserve' look," said his friend Andy Sexton, 27, who is visiting from Arkansas and has been helping Groves deal with fallout from the crime.

Neighbor Lucille Liem, 37, who owns a Prius hybrid, said that a common sentiment in the neighborhood is that large vehicles are impractical and a strain on the Earth -- and Hummers in particular are a symbol of consumer excess.

"The neighborhood in general is very concerned with the environment," said Liem, whose Prius gets about 48 miles a gallon compared with the Hummer's 14 miles a gallon. "It's more liberal leaning. It's ridiculous to be driving a Hummer."

Liem added quickly that she does not condone violence.

Another neighbor, Lani Fremaux, 58, said she bought a T-shirt months ago with a picture of a Hummer and above it the word "Bummer." She wore the shirt proudly but said she is so upset with recent events on her street that she might retire it.

"They've got everything at their disposal in this city to make a statement in a legal way," Fremaux said of the bat-wielding men who struck out at the Hummer. "I consider this a hate crime."

First attack of its kind
Police said they see small acts of vandalism in the area from time to time, but they have not seen anything so severe, or with such a clear political message, in recent years.

"This seems to be an isolated event," Cmdr. Andy Solberg said.

Investigators said they are searching for the vandals but don't have many leads. Witnesses saw two men about six feet tall with bandanas or masks over their faces smash up the car about 3:30 a.m. Monday and then run off.

Groves's mother, Phyllis Groves, 70, said she is sad for her son because he has wanted a Hummer for a while. But even she did not exactly approve of the purchase.

"I teased him because of the gas mileage," she said. "But he wanted a Hummer. He didn't have other gas guzzlers in mind."

He bought the used 2005 vehicle a month ago from a dentist in Fairfax County and left it in a shop for several weeks so it could be outfitted to his specifications -- new, bigger tires and a "lift kit," meaning it would be higher off the ground.

Groves, who grew up in the District and works in marketing for a local radio station, said he wanted the car in part because he is starting a company, Washington Sports Marketing, that is "image-based." He said he wants to get it towed and repaired but fears extremists might not be done making an example of him.

"I'm worried about what I do now," he said. "If I get it fixed, do I put it back in the same spot three weeks from now?"

"Image Debased" sports marketing I say, but sure hope that he parks it back in the street again! Then we can read about it in the news again.

I glad to say I've smashed in a hummer's window, pushed in it's roof, pulled off it's tires, kicked in its sides! Yes and I'm proud of it. The action must be taken to get the message across!!!!

Does a tonka toy Hummer count?

But I Think those 6 year olds got the message alright!

diane o'thirst · Post by **diane o'thirst** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:17 pm

He's an asshole for getting a vehicle like that, the perps were assholes for doing what they did, the smuggites who cruise by and glare at him are assholes.

No heroes here, just a bunch of assholes.

Hopefully the guy's insurance will pay him back and he can get something better.

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:14 pm

The number of Hummers used for transportation only is insignifigant compared to the number of pickups that are used strictly as passenger vehicles. It all gets down to pounds/HP/load. 460 HP MBZs and 270 HP rice rockets are impossible to justify from an ecological point of view.
A 510 Datsun might be considered the ultimate in responsible vehicles. A 240 D MBZ or a Volvo fit also.
A Hummer is far more "responsible" than a Dodge PU with a V-10 viper engine. It's just perception.

Post by **mdmf007** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:33 pm

Doesnt matter about the HP, what really matters is the efficiency.

I got no porblem with a 500HP engine, and theres no reason that same engine cant push 28-32 MPG. it just costs more to engineer.

Do people realize that some cars in the 70's were pushing 40+ miles a gallon? then when cheap oil came back efficiency went away. Problem was that it was burned in a way that causes byproducts in the way of noxious fumes.

So what do we do,? We improve the exhaust, by using fuel in the combustion system to superheat the gases and reduce the emissions, but at the cost of 50% of the mileage capability, so to go as far you need to burn twice as much at half the emission discharged?

So the net result? We found a way to burn twice as much fuel to go just as far, with the same amount of emissions. I would ratehr burn 1/2 the fuel, half as eficently. At least that way you know where you are.

Seriously though, its easy to get 50-60 MPg, and still be able to burn the tires off of a car or truck when you want too. The technilogy is there, it just costs money to build as the tech isnt easy to mass produce, in the way of super tight, close spec engines, requiring cnc machining, and tons of controls.

boggles my mind.

later

The Hosh · Post by **The Hosh** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 2:23 pm

mdmf007 wrote:Doesnt matter about the HP, what really matters is the efficiency.

True. My 90HP diesel Golf (Highway: 4.6L/100km or 65 MPG) has no trouble getting up to 200 km/h (about 120 mph).

Apollonaris Zeus · Post by **Apollonaris Zeus** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 8:47 am

Yes, and this prius travels at 100mph getting 65mpg + 1/2 Ounce of Pot, 25 Xanax, 35 Valium, 11 Vicodin and 7 Adderall and possible 3 years in Jail.

And just for the speeding ticket.

Al Goreâ€™s son charged with drug possession
Marijuana, other drugs allegedly found in 24-year-oldâ€™s car
Al Gore III, seen in a booking mug shot from July 4, was freed on $20,000 bail.
Updated: 3:08 a.m. ET July 21, 2007
LAGUNA NIGUEL, Calif. - Al Goreâ€™s son was charged Friday with possessing marijuana and other drugs that authorities say were discovered in his car after he was pulled over this month for speeding.

Al Gore III, 24, is free on $20,000 bail and scheduled to be arraigned Aug. 1 in Superior Court in Laguna Niguel.

He faces two felony counts of drug possession, two misdemeanor counts of drug possession without a prescription and one misdemeanor count of marijuana possession, the district attorneyâ€™s office said in a statement. Gore also was charged with a traffic infraction for allegedly driving faster than 100 miles per hour.

Prosecutors said he could be sentenced to a maximum of three years and eight months in prison if convicted on all counts, though he might be eligible for a drug treatment program instead of prison.

Kalee Kreider, a spokeswoman for Goreâ€™s parents, said the family had no comment.

The charges stem from July 4, when Orange County sheriffâ€™s deputies say they pulled Gore over for speeding.

Second drug arrest
Gore was allegedly driving a 2006 blue Toyota Prius at about 100 mph. Upon searching the car, deputies say they discovered less than an ounce of marijuana and a variety of medications â€” including Xanax, Valium, Vicodin and Adderall. Authorities said Gore did not have a prescription for any of those medications.

The son of the former vice president and Democratic presidential nominee was previously arrested for marijuana possession in Maryland in 2003, when he was a student at Harvard University. Gore completed substance abuse counseling to settle those charges.

Gore is the youngest of Tipper and Al Goreâ€™s four children. He now lives in Los Angeles and is an associate publisher of GOOD, a magazine about philanthropy and aimed at young people.

Now that's The Inconvenient Truth!

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:50 am

I find nitrous really helps my car go faster.
I pipe it out directly in the steering wheel area.
It seems to have a lively effect.

diane o'thirst · Post by **diane o'thirst** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:50 am

I was told that running NOS required the engine to be chrome-plated because of the snappier action in the pistons. I wanted to upgrade my old El Camino to NOS-burning but a mechanic at the speed shop told me that the stresses would tear the engine apart and it could only hold together if I had it chrome-plated inside and out.

Caveat: this was back in the '80s.

Post by **mdmf007** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:56 am

Diane -
I would go to a new mechanic. He obviously has no clue what he is talking about.

NOS can be used to add as little HP gain as you want or to the point where you blow your motor up.

If your looking for massive gains like 200-300HP or more right when you need them, then you need to build your motor to handle it, If your looking for 50 more HP to climb hills, your engine will handle it unless its got problems already. NOS is not a fix for a weak motor.

Chrome plating the outside of an engine is purely for asthetics, and you Chrome plate mechanically for hard wear, not for structural integrity. Does he think a layer of hard chrome 1/1000th of an inch thick will prevent a motor from popping? It would look nice when it did though.

have fun.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:04 pm

Actually, guys, I'm using nitrous in the driver compartment, not the engine.

And for some racing classes where it isn't allowed, you can hide the lines and the vent.

diane o'thirst · Post by **diane o'thirst** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 3:40 pm

mdmf007 wrote:Diane -
I would go to a new mechanic. He obviously has no clue what he is talking about.

Did you read the last line of my post?
This was back in the '80s. And the El Camino in question is probably melted down for scrap by now.

As for the HP...I'm running E85 which is 107 octane. Adding NOS would be overkill. Toyota built my Cristobel with stock equipment geared for towing 5,000 pounds worth of trailer up hill and down dale. I was going to have a tranny cooler installed but the mechanic said there was one already.
Not that it matters right now...having to miss the Burn because of a detached retina

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 5:23 pm

So sorry to hear that.

Post by **mdmf007** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:06 pm

Missed the early 80s part, and i feel for you on your eye - I detached my left retina when hit dead center with a rock from a helo - had to lay face down for 36 hours until a surgeon could fix it in place.

A year after that -- Get this you'll love it, I am looking in a fire nozzle, to clear some debris, when an asshat turns the water on thinking it would be funny!!! The blast of water re-detached it, and popped my whole eye out of the socket!!!!!!! worse experience ever. Doctor in Winnemucca said its ok, gave me tylenol 3 and sent me on my way. Knowing he was way off I chartered a cessna to fly me to Reno, where the eye surgeon reatached it.

Two years after that same eye gets hit - a stick from lawnmower hits me dead center in cornea - puncturing it. eye loses pressure deflates, off to hosiptal, reinflate it with something, I wake up with a new cornea from a dead guy.

That eye has seen a lot of action, and stills sees 20/20 So I am extremely lucky. Field of vision is reduced slightly and I can see tons of floaters if I look at a flat colored background. Some look like DNA stands, or little donut shapes, but it could be way worse.

Get better, and I am sure you will be there if there is a way.

as far as 107 octane goes - you dont need it unless your engine is cammed up to a ridiculously high compression ratio. and sounds like a dragster at stop lights - by sounding like it is barely running. Chuga Chuga Chuga. BRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA Chuga Chuga Chuga BRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA. (my best effort at sounding like a cammed up engine)

If your engine does not knock on 87 octane, that is the most power you will get. The octane rating merely enables a higher compression ratio to be run in an engine without pre-detonation. That is - it wont spontaneously explode BEFORE your engine reaches TDC - top dead center, and the spark plug gets to ignite the fuel / air mixture when it is supposed to do so.

Ignition before the cylinder is ready and timed for it is Pre-detonation, (knocking) also called "dieseling" as this is how a diesel engine runs, it just smashes the fuel until it spontaneously detonates. But the crank, pistons, cylinder wals, and pistons in a diesel are built to do this - that the cost difference between diesel and gas engines, quality of manufacture.

Pre-detonation is trying to force the piston down, when it still needs to come up a hair on the compression stroke - then down on the power stroke. Thats bad for heads, pistons, connecting rods, seals, and cylinder walls.

So in short unless your running 14.1/1 or more compression 107 octane - (which is classed as aviation grade fuel) will net you no more power.

buy the cheapest fuel your motor does not knock on and your golden.

later

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:33 pm

This is a very good article on bio-fuel. It's worth reading the whole thing.
http://www.financialsense.com/editorial ... /0725.html

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:40 pm

Ick, ick, ick.
How about no more eye stories, mdm?
I'd tell you one of mine, but again, ick!
I was immobilized and given experimental drugs by Sandoz.
Not moving was the worst part, but I don't remember some of it.
Don't want to either.

Where did they bury the guy with the water valve?

On high octane fuel, I think you should try to optimize an engine.
Many cars will get better mileage on premium.
If they do, it's usually more efficient that way.
Some cars can be dialed in for it.
I hope to add manual spark control to my cars, it helps.
Every car I got over 40 mpg with, was on premium.

My 408 is 12.5 to 1.
I can still run it on regular if I don't push it, but the mileage drops.
I only use regular if I am some place gouging on the premium.

But as you said, if you can't exploit it, you don't need it.
Sometimes the difference is subtle, but a cheaper way to go.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 2:56 am

I stopped at a place with ethanol in the gas.
I kept going.
Here's some general info.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp ... le_id=3700

An interesting bit about pollution from ships and people affected on shore.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp ... e_number=2

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp ... le_id=4060

Diesels
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp ... le_id=4832

Barbie · Post by **Barbie** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 12:01 pm

I bike to work...carpool for major shopping.....My house has solar panels...and I hang my clothes to dry...

Lassen Forge · Post by **Lassen Forge** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 12:08 pm

I did the math on the new, smaller fuel injected modern pickup...

Eleven and a half fucking MPG!

My older Chevy carbureted POS did 16 or so. Of course that was before I blew it up. Grumble...

bb

diane o'thirst · Post by **diane o'thirst** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 2:54 pm

I found out my insurance agency gives a 30% premium discount for hybrid and alternative fuel vehicles. With my good driving record and this to boot, Geico's thrown in the towel and given up trying to lure me away.

The numbers keep adding up. Tax break, insurance break, $20 saved on every tankful over straight petrol, the conversion's gonna pay for itself in six months.

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 7:13 pm

Kinda neat;
http://pesn.com/2007/09/15/9500498_Whis ... ctric_car/

How Fuel efficient is your car?

What is your gas mileage"

Yikes!