Seeking knowledge on flame effects and foam sculpture

ecomain · Post by **ecomain** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:17 am

I'm done with the mechanics of my art car project, but wanted to improve some things.

1) [b]EASY FLAMES?[/b] I have a cleopatra bed thing with a pyramid at the top that I would like to add a flame effect to. I've read many posts about this, but nobody seems to give up the actual how-to info. I'd like to located a cheap nozzle for propane that can sit at the peak with a pilot light and burst a 3-foot fireball now and then. Where does one find a cheap nozzle for this? Is there a hack for something else that will work?

I've also seen references to classes on flame effects and would very much like to attend or gain knowledge through osmosis from people who have mastered this. Where should I look or go?

2) [b]RESIN over FOAM[/b]? The main vehicle is supposed to be a scarab. The plywood outline I created looks stupid. I want to make a good 3-D set of mandibles and head in a way I can bolt on and reuse next year. I've heard there is a foam product that disney uses that can be sculpted and covered with fiberglass or something. Has anyone done something like this in a light weight form? What is the process?

Any tips or links to better info would be appreciated.

Post by **mdmf007** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:58 pm

http://www.industrialpolymers.com/styrospray.html

check this stuff out. we have made models out of foam and "hard coated it" this stuff seals foam so it can then be weather resistant and painted like fiberglass. If your making long skinny parts like insect mandibles, form them around some heavy duty rebar, welded to your mounting plate for removal as needed.

later

Dustdevil · Post by **Dustdevil** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:21 pm

You do not need a nozzle. A section of 1/2 pipe will work just fine. You will need a tank that will serve as an accumulator, a solenoid valve that will open when triggered, some hoses, lines & plumbing fittings. You will need an ignition source. For that a small line from your propane source will work fine. 1/4 copper is large enough. Around the end wrap some stainless steel wool so the wind is not blowing out the pilot light. The propane source will fill the accumlator tank. When you open the solenoid valve and the 1/2 line purges the accumulator into the pilot light, you will get you flame effect. Note that all hoses and valves must be rated for propane. The effect must be at least 10' off the ground. You will need a 1/4 turn shut off valve at the propane source. It is obvious that you have not put this in your DMV application. You will need to have the FE inspected at night when you go to DMV. Actually all FE needs to be inspected on the Playa, but keep in mind the PST is going to take a close look at a flame effect that was not put in the app. You will need a fire extinguisher and a small first aid kit on the vehicle. This is really a simple system and there is no reason you cannot have this ready in time. Use common sense in placing the effect near any flammable materials you might be using for you vehicle.

ecomain · Post by **ecomain** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:36 pm

Thanks for the replies. On the sculptural stuff, are any of the products on that site good for the mold block from which to carve the core over which to use the other products?

On the propane flame stuff...any good sources for 12v solenoid valves so I can run the flame effect from the two vehicle?

Thanks again

Dustdevil · Post by **Dustdevil** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:45 pm

Mcmaster-carr or Grainger will have what you need. What is the name of your car and I am hoping you already sent in your DMV registration app???

ecomain · Post by **ecomain** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:58 am

What pressure should the valves be rated for? Most peak at 250 lbs. Seems tricky to find a very high pressure electric valve.

Yes, of course I have it registered. I don't have the name I registered it under handy. I didn't apply for flame effects so I was going to make it easily removable if they don't approve.

Dustdevil · Post by **Dustdevil** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:04 am

250 #'s if fine. There really should be no problem with reg. You are asking the right questions. Contact me off list if you need specifics. I will be doing your on Playa FE inspection and I would much rather see you get it right before you up.

ecomain · Post by **ecomain** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:13 am

OK, just to make sure I understand this correctly. The purpose of the accumulator is to allow primarily for rapid release of a large amount of gas in a burst mode?

Then to fill the accumulator, I could use as small as 1/4" tubing, but the pressure in the accumulator will be limited to the maximum pressure coming from the main tank and a smaller feeder will take longer to fill the accumulator.

Propane tanks are built to hold up to 250 psi, so the valves on both tanks should be rated that high?

The size of the fireball will be determined by a combination of the accumulator volume and backpressure?

ecomain · Post by **ecomain** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:15 am

Cool...it seemed like those that knew the most about this were the inspectors, so it is great to be assisted by one! Thanks so much.

ecomain · Post by **ecomain** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:16 am

Would it help to draw up a modified proposal to email you so you can better pre-review this prior to onsite inspection?

Dustdevil · Post by **Dustdevil** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:18 am

That is exactly what the accumulator does. To fill the accumulator I would plumb 1/2" hose. The larger the hose, the more swiftly it will refill for the next blast. A current propane tank has flow limiters so the refill will be slow. Also, if you blast it too many times, the tank will begin to freeze. The 1/4" tubing is to run a second line from the supply side of the accumulator for a constant pilot light. It too will need a shut off valve. The propane pressure will be a function of the ambient temp on the Playa. At night you can expect to see anywhere from 80 psi to 125. Day will naturally be higher.

Dustdevil · Post by **Dustdevil** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:24 am

Sending me some drawings now would be great. I can post them to you app in the BM files.

ecomain · Post by **ecomain** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:27 am

Can the valve feeding the accumulator be left on during releases of the accumulator so that it is continually filling, or does it have to be shut off each time the accumulator is fired?

In previous years, I was fascinated by the VW rabit with 8 tentacles of fire synced to play music from different sized accumulators with extra tanks and the electronics in a trailer. How are they able to sustain such continuous operation?

Dustdevil · Post by **Dustdevil** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:06 pm

Yes, leave the valve on and the accumulator begins filling instantly. Also, a little extra flow of propane can't hurt. The large the supply tank or if you have a lot of smaller tanks, the freezing won't be as rapid. Some artist place their tanks in a water bath and warm the water with a small water heater, IE motor home. If you want lots of continuous effects IE, The Serpent Mother, you can use a vaporizer which coils liquid propane into gas at a high rate of speed.

ecomain · Post by **ecomain** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:38 pm

How do you know if a tank, valve or hose is rated for propane? Clearly the main tank is easy, but the rest? Is the accumulator considered a tank? Because I was going to just weld that out of alumunim and feed it with a 1/2" electrical conduit that would also get it up four feet above the 6' high structure.

Dustdevil · Post by **Dustdevil** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:47 pm

There is no point in welding an accumulator tank from aluminum. Tank an out of service old style propane tank, remove the valve and you have your accumulator. You will need to purchase the hoses from a shop that specializes in hoses. Electiical conduit will not hold pressue. Valves will say WOG on them. Water Oil Gas. Most 1/4 brass ball valves will work just fine. Again Graingers is good for this. You need a much heavier pipe than ele conduit. Conduit is not designed to hold pressure. Check your plumbing shops. Schedule 80 is good. Place the accumulator tank up higher and use a shorter section of pipe. The effect will be nicer. You just have to plumb a hose up to it.

ecomain · Post by **ecomain** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:41 pm

For the accumulator, what I'd like to do now is take a small propane torch size tank, knock out the stop, use the threaded one end to fill it from the bottom and tap in the 1/2" pipe with valve into the top. Would that fly?

Dustdevil · Post by **Dustdevil** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:33 pm

Not even close. First, it is too small to be effective. A BBQ size tank is about as small as is practical. Second, you cannot tap into the thin metal. Third, the fill and discharge end are the same. You only need one opening. Imagine a BBQ size tank, the valve removed and a short section of pipe extending out of it, approx 3". Then a "T" fitting is attached. Vertical from the T is another short section that goes to the solenoid valve. The other end of the solenoid valve would be the effect discharge. The side of the T would be the fill. When the source valve and tank are opened, the accumulator fills with propane gas. You release the solenoid and the gas is suddenly discharged into the pilot light and at the same moment the source tank is refilling the accumulator and adding, slightly, to the flame effect. Tapping into a tank that is that thin will not be safe. There is no way of knowing if you connection will withstand the pressure. Sure you could have it hydrostatically tested, but there is no need. Start with something that works. A simple accumulator system can be fabricated safely in a few hours.

ecomain · Post by **ecomain** » Tue Jul 24, 2007 8:56 am

I'm trying to keep the center of gravity lower, so would it work to have the accumulator at ground level with a 10 foot pipe ending up at the valve? Or does the accumulator need to be at the release point?

Dustdevil · Post by **Dustdevil** » Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:48 am

There is no problem with having the accumulator mounted down low. There might be a slight loss of effect due to friction in the pipe, but I doubt the loss would be noticable.

ecomain · Post by **ecomain** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:53 pm

Is this setup supposed to run direct from the main propane tank at full pressure, or is is supposed to use a regulator as found on barbecues, etc?

Dustdevil · Post by **Dustdevil** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 4:49 pm

The more pressure the greater the flame effect. Run it at full pressure.

bobby2sox · Post by **bobby2sox** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 7:15 pm

I have been trying to find something on how to make one.... this has so far been my best resource. It would be sweet if there was a tutorial somewhere. I can't find one. Maybe if mine works well enough ill make a tutorial. Thank you though

iclazion · Post by **iclazion** » Sun Sep 09, 2007 3:08 am

Okay so I have been looking all over the net, and I have only found small pieces of information regarding â€œPropane flaming cannon â€“ like those DDI madeâ€

Seeking knowledge on flame effects and foam sculpture

Seeking knowledge on flame effects and foam sculpture

Hey...thanks

Of course

Flame effects

Inspection

Would it help

valve requirements

rating

Accumulator

Accumulator

One more clarification

thank you

Hallo From Warm Sunny South Africa