Kids at BM...the ongoing battle

[ubu]

I'd rather not aid the possible development of lung cancer in my innocent child by exposing him to alkaline dust so corrosive that it erodes the skin on your feet if you walk barefoot too long.

Transgirl. May I inform you about the misunderstandings in your post? Nothing erodes your skin out there. The technical term would be dry out, not erode. The alkali dust is corrosive to certain metals not skin, and only when combined with moisture. You seem to be confusing the acid with the alkali. Please consult wikipedia for an understanding of ph.

Also, the kind and degree of the innocence of children is a fine point, and a matter of no small thought.

"The soul of sweet delight shall never be defiled. " Pax. Be well. Over and out.

[Das Bus]

Das, I AM already thinking of what to create for next year! You can bet it will be Becca friendly!
You & she made all the work & 7 stitches worth wild, as I said to you the day we met, you changed the way I see kids at BM. I would love to see (maybe kiddsville already dose it?) playa parenting work shops. As I read the threads on the subject I see a repetitive view. Some parents & children do BM well but the few paint a negative persona for kids on the playa. I'm confident with education we can all make it work.
Das Bus thank you & Becca for opening my mind & I promise some new transportation for Becca in 07.

No, THANK YOU! PM me your snail mail address, and I'll send you copies of the pics I took of you two. (when I get them developed!)
: )

[transgirl]

LOL. And this whole time I pictured someone in a Gi and horse stance.

Yes, I am being fiercely protective of my -very hypothetical- children...which is a little overboard.

Whew! I need a drink. Heated discussions with burners on eplaya seems as mind warping as being on the playa itself.

[transgirl]

The alkali dust is corrosive to certain metals not skin, and only when combined with moisture. You seem to be confusing the acid with the alkali.

Yes this is where my misunderstanding happened with the word "errode", since I'd heard that the playa dust will rust exposed metal once off the playa--in my mind I generalized to the feet. Actually, I will study the Wikipedia page on this since I'm becoming VERY interested in it.

[KellY]

My wife the lovely Blackswan and I brought our 41/2 month old Rabbit Boy out with us this year - he was on-playa for two weeks. He had a great time - we kept on the SP50 sunblock, kept him in the shade, out of the duststorms, and he had a huge fan club and loved the fireworks burn night (he had a front-row seat on the perimeter). It did limit our meanderings a bit, but there's no way we would have left him for that long so it was worth it.

We plan to take him every year and we'll never want the event to "tone down" to be more "kid friendly". I doubt many if any parents want the event to change for their benefit - it's the asshole cops who use the excuse of kids' presence to force the event to be more tame. So complain to the cops, not the folks who bring their families and know what they're in for.

[anticdevices]

The other half used to feel that way, but now (most likely as a direct result of living in that utopian-philosophy) have kids of their own and so have to re-think their ideals... usually expecting society to shield and protect their little living, shitting indiscretions from all the lovely things they once enjoyed themselves.

May I observe that this thread (as many of these are) was started by a childless person complaining about kids at the event. So far no parent has complained (in this or any other current thread) about the activities of other participants, or suggested that the event should be changed to accommodate the presence of their children.

Parents who bring their children to Burning Man so far have a fairly good idea of what happens at the event. Parents haven’t had to re-think their ideals; rather, parents want to share the expression of these ideals with their children. It’s the childless who seem intent on thinking for parents.

[ubu]

The alkali dust is corrosive to certain metals not skin, and only when combined with moisture. You seem to be confusing the acid with the alkali.

Yes this is where my misunderstanding happened with the word "errode", since I'd heard that the playa dust will rust exposed metal once off the playa--in my mind I generalized to the feet. Actually, I will study the Wikipedia page on this since I'm becoming VERY interested in it.

It is interesting. ph of the playa is probably 10.5 or so. just slightly higher than hand soap. You are getting a good dust wash out there. Caustic would be the applicable word for ph above 12 or so.

We exaggerate to ourselves slightly the extent and effect of the alkali on feet, etc. I for example wear no socks, only open sandals and use no vinegar out there, only cocoa butter and I do fine. ymmv

[trees]

Ok, here's my take...

I've wanted to attend BM since I first heard of it years ago and for one reason or another it didn't happen untill this year (2006). I happen to be the guy that brings too much stuff on every trip. I'm the over-prepared guy who fills every crevice of the vehicle or baggage in preparation for any situation or disaster. I wish I could pack lighter but I guess it's just in my nature to be prepared for things that aren't likely to happen. You may be asking yourself "how does this relate to kids at burning man?". Well, if I had children, being over-prepared would directly relate to them and all aspects of their lives including a potential visit to burning man. This is one of many reasons I don't have children. The poor tykes would not be too happy in their hermetically sealed life support bubbles. Their wireless laptops with internet access wouldn't really be adequate replacements for the living world outside their artificial womb. Ok, back on track. You can imagine my reaction when I learned that a good friend was planning on making the trek to BM with her 1.5 yo daughter and 4 yo son. I thought it would be an amazing cultural experience for the kids but I was concerned for the health and the happiness of both them and their mom. I gained a shred of hope when I learned she was traveling and camping with a couple who had already been to BM with their children of similar ages in previous years. That shred of hope was something but I still had my doubts. I had not seen this friend in quite awhile so I was eager to see her and the children. I scoured kids camp over the course of two days until I found them. What a surprise, they were late like most people I talked with. Well, they were in an old tent that could use some tlc (not a cushy RV with shower and kitchen), they had makeshift tarp shade, squeaky bikes and budget foodstuff. They had 3 adults and 4 kids and that many smiles. Throughout the week there was no playa foot and no sickness. The days went on and spirits were high. Mom wasn't able to let loose fully after sundown but they all had a blast by day. You can only have so much adult fun with the added responsibility of children. That's the way it goes. Fellow burners were not just willing but excited to contribute to the lives of these little people. We visited camps (with the kids) that provided "liquid education" and we had our doubts about the outcome. Those doubts were immediately shattered. People both sober and at various stages of intoxication quickly volunteered cold untainted cider for the kids and started playing games with water squirters. The kids were having a blast and they were staying cool too. We were welcome but the kids were automatically top priority at just about any camp worth visiting. On top of that, stilt walkers and other participants would intentionally approach and entertain the children. It was a beautiful display of humanity and caring for our youth. It doesn't take much of an education to avoid the jiffy lube camp with kids in tow and they do a good job keeping their inner sanctum private from outside viewers. Like any beautiful town with a decent society, BRC is kid friendly. People will bend over backwards to help children and make them happy and comfortable. Like any trip with your children, you'll have to bring the appropriate supplies to keep them healthy. It's not hard and it's all laid out and explained by people who have been doing it for years. BRC LLC is very organized and they would be the first to tell you to leave the kids at home if it was unsafe or unsuitable. If you think BM is unsafe for your children don't bring them. If you think someone needs help with their children at BM give them a hand or baby wipe or a swig of water. Just as many adults need help at BM and everyone that I saw was willing to give them a hand no gripes included. That's the beauty about BRC, most people want to help and contribute to a positive experience. Try not to rain on your own parade. Oh, "How do you explain an 18 foot mobile penis to an 8 year old girl?" I'd be surprised if the girl would even find it out of the ordinary. That was the funny thing about burning man and kids, they are amazed by many things but other things just don't seem strange to them. If you don't really know much about the penis an 18 foot member wouldn't be that strange/funny/scary. If the question did arise you could either dodge it or explain it. What's the big deal? Have you never dodged a question from your child because you weren't ready to breach a certain issue? Is your daughter 8 years old and never seen her father and mother naked? Gimme a break! Kids love BM and I love to see smiling children's faces at BM. I FEEL (this is my opinion not necessarily a fact) like the majority of people bringing their children to BM are raising their children in ways that enhance personal growth, expression and understanding. I feel like many of these children will be our visionaries and leaders into a healthier future. We're showing them a path and handing them a torch to light that path. We must support them and include them in our lives. We must allow them to live and learn...let's not stand in their way.

[we0ne]

Trans Girl,

If you have children or are thinking of having kids, I would suggest some serious re thinking of your parental strategy of sheltering your kids from difficult situations. Part of your job as a parent is to provide your kids with skills to deal with difficult situations. Kids who have been "sheltered" from everything difficult or dangerous are going to be struggling as young adults to figure shit out on their own. Be very certain about the differance between dangerous and difficult. BM can be a difficult experiance, but is by no means a dangerous one, unless of course you haven't travelled much or had a lot of turmoil in your life, than perhaps BM is the ultimate scary place for you.

Believe it or not, there are actually kids in this world that live in hotter places than BRC and they too have environmental factors in their home towns that you may find harsh for you. We don't all live in a country meadow. I live close to the arctic and it is extremely, dry, dark and cold up here 8 months of the year.

Advice to all who are unsure if kids should be at BM, you take care of your self and I'll take care of myself and my child. My child's experiance at BM is not your concern or responsibility, he has 2 loving parents there for him. Instead, perhaps volunteer your efforts to helping some of the newer people who show up unprepared and find themselves consuming far more drugs and alcohol than they would normally be able to handle.

As for your "scientific evidence" on playa dust and developing lungs: Please forward the names of the journals and authors so the rest of us can read the researh you were citing. I'm sure the families who live in Gerlach, Empire and surrounding communities who have had generations of children grow up on or near the playa would like to read it too. Children who are exposed to city "smog" on a consistant basis are far more likely to develop long term health problems, than playa dust for one week.

If children's health is your main concern than please bring that into the default world. I don't know if you are a smoker and if so if you have every smoked a cigarette in front of a child, but if so, please consider the long term effect you are having on that kid when you set the example of acceptable behaviour. You'd be amazed what I can shelter my son from on the playa if I deem it necessary, the default world however is a whole different story.

Peace,
We0ne

P.S. For those of you stating "if I did have kids, I'd never bring them to BM" You have no idea what you will or won't do with kids because you don't have them yet. Children change you in profound ways, meet your child first, than decide what experiances are best for them and you.

[Melvynman]

My kid has been 12 maybe 13 times, lost count. We started going before there were streets and cops and people that didn’t want kids at Bunringman. I have a bit of experience and will share my first hand knowledge and hopefully cover most people concerns.
Sex: The summer between third and fourth grade. The kid comes in to camp all smiles telling me he saw sex. I ask what did you see? He tells me he saw two people kissing and rolling around naked. I figure he saw somebody having sex. At lunchtime I break out a fourth grade sex education book and we sit down together and read it. The book had all good stuff including drawing of both internal and external organs and how the male delivery system works. Couple hours later he proclaims he is never going to have sex. I remind him he hasn’t gone thru puberty yet and we will have this conversation again. Small children have no interest sex and don’t understand why we do. He is a little older now and likes girls.
Drugs: It wasn’t until he was about thirteen before he realized people were getting high. I showed him rave camps and talked about X and all drugs. Made a game of him guessing what drugs people where on. We have open and honest discussion about sex and drugs use unlike most parents I know. He will be seventeen this year and has never taken drugs or alcohol and I don’t think he’s had sex yet. He knows to use a condom.
Strangers: He is not aloud to talk to men, accept food or drinks from anybody. Women are OK to talk too. Statically they don’t harm children.
Dust and environment: Never been problem. He carries dust mask, goggles and camelback for water. If your child has stuffy noses and ear infection I would make sure he not drinking milk that doesn’t come form his mother. Cows milks causes mucus in human and lots of other bad things. Diet is the biggest factor in good health no matter what the environment.
My closing thoughts on kids at BM: Parents it’s your job to raise your kids and BM is not a kid friendly environment. Burningman would not exist today without the kids. Two things I know. Fastest way out of Iraq would be to reinstate the draft. Fastest way to get BM shut down would be to ban kids. When the right wing conservatives come to shut BM down. Who do think is going to stop them the people that go for the sex and drugs?

[Zane5100]

Fastest way to get BM shut down would be to ban kids.

huh

I always figured it would be shutting down the JOTS because of the trash or having a rainstorm like the one in '98 hit on Tuesday.

As to the dust being a health risk, people get hurt or killed out there from things other than the dust.

It's a harsh environment out there no doubt, but humans have been pretty good figuring out how to live and breed in harsh environments for a lot longer than some people are giving credit. Common sense and using intelligence with some forethought mitigates a lot of issues. As to what weird shit kids are going to be exposed to, well, it seems kids tend to handle that shit a lot better than some adults.

Regardless, people are going to continue getting emotional about the subject and it's hard to have a measured debate when you're in the grip of strong emotions.

[mdmf007]

[quote="we0ne"]Trans Girl,
Advice to all who are unsure if kids should be at BM, you take care of your self and I'll take care of myself and my child.
playa dust for one week.
quote]

Absolutely correct - I believe and am pretty sure the laws of the land back up your right to raise protestants, mormons, republicans, dems, unitarians, agnostic, catholic, dumb, smart, gay, straight children.

When it crosses the line into abuse, then we have a safety net set up for that as well. I can guarantee 99% of the kids out there by 10 years old have seen a wiener and vagina; boobs are everywhere, and purple hair is commonplace. As a parent of three girls 8,9, and 12yo I excercise my right to not take them to BM, doesnt mean that other kids shouldnt go and that is the right decision of their parents. If abuse, or neglect is at hand then it will get discovered.

With a population density of over 28,000 per square mile (1.6 miles across) - (.80 mile across center) -(10-2 oclock open or 1/3)) You are not going to hide very well. I have been working since yesterday so I am starting to ramble here - just my thoughts ( monacos at 3/4square mile and 32K is a world record, but they build vertically)

later

[gyre]

I bet Monaco sets a record for cubic money too.

I met entire families that come together.
One car coming in had one new person months old.
A young boy had eight burns, he was probably ten or so.

That dust can chew you up.
I did better this year by cleaning my hands more often, but it took a lot of care and two weeks for my hands to recover in the past.

Breathing too much of anything is not good, but I don't think anyone knows for sure how bad the dust is to inhale.

[mdmf007]

I agree not much is known about the dust hazards specific to the playa.

But - when I drive through Gerlach I dont see all the kids on O2 bottles and I havent heard of an epidemic of asthma there?? I agree newborns and babies lungs cant be improved at all by the playa and I would be dissapointed to see a baby out there, but againm, its your right to raise em how you see fit.

[gyre]

Many people have complained of problems after going for years.
I was exposed to very little dust last year compared to 2005 though.
It can't hurt you if you don't breathe it.

I don't think think Gerlach has as much dust, does it?
And it would be a different material anyway, perhaps?

The youngest child I saw brought was kept in an rv and well protected.
Newborn.
12 on, 12 off for the parents.


Ride late at night with a strong headlamp and you can see how much dust there is on even a clear night with all the disturbance going on.
I would be interested in knowing if it is a component our lungs can absorb.

[K-mom]

2 of the people I travelled with last year got severely sick afterwards ... one guy was pretty much passed out the entire drive back, took him a few days to recover, and then his girlfriend got sick, after a couple of weeks she went to the doctors who said she'd developped sudden asthma ... forced her to quit smoking (probably a good thing) and as for smoking other materials, she had to buy a vaporiser (also probably a good thing).

One theory I guessed at was that they went from this harsh outdoor desert climate to two days sitting in an air conditioned car... could be wrong, but the other car we were in had the windows down the whole time (no A.C.) and we were all fine.

[gyre]

Altitude could be part of it.
If the car got dust in the ac system and then was shut up, may be something to do with it?

[SaltPhoenix]

I can't BRIBE my 18 yo daughter to go to BM, she says, "it's dumb"
My 9.5 yo daughter asked me a couple days ago: "can I PLEASE go to burning man?"
I had to tell her, "maybe next year"
She will absolutely LOVE it, she's seen us ready ourselves for YEARS for BM and regionals with starry eyes and I can't WAIT to take her. I am also pregnant right now, so since I will be breastfeeding in 2008 during BM, it may just be the year I finally take the kids... I can't WAIT!
Why would I want to be part of something I couldn't share with the people I love most?

[Trixy]

OK, let's clarify something about dust. The FACT is that if you breath ANYTHING (dust, mold, spores, smoke, exhaust, micro pariticles of anything) for an extended period of time (generally thought of as years) there will be PERMANENT damage to your lungs.

Another FACT: there is NO regeneration of lung tissue, not even kids. The lung tissue does not have the ability to regenerate.

There maybe very little medical grade research about "playa" dust and respiratory problems, however, don't think it doesn't hurt. The LA DWP has had to (under court mandate) do something to decrease the dust on Owen's dry lake bed. They are planting salt grass and refilling parts of the lake bed to decrease the dust that affects the citizens of the owen's valley due to resp. problems.

I don't believe that a week or two of heavy dust for the average person will have any long lasting problems. The real problem is long term inhalation, think of smoking cigaretts. It's not the week or two you smoked, not even the year or two that causes COPD/ASTHMA, it's the constant barrage that makes for problems with your lungs.

So let's stop thinking that this playa is forever gonna fuck up your kids, or your lungs for that matter. There MAY be some people that are genetically more sensiteve to playa dust than others, but there's currently no way to test that theory. Be smart, use a mask.

Let's also stop thinking that the "environment" is not safe for children. This human species has survived millions of years, in much worse conditions than these we encounter, and yet here we are, more people on earth than ever!

So, lets boil this down to what it really is: People's morals and values

I'm not gonna say what I would do if I had kids, cause I don't have any, thus there's NO way to say what I would do. I do believe that it's eye opening for children, and they'll see much more disturbing behavior at school than they will at BRC (think of all the bathroom pranks at school, the school yard fights, the shit they see on your computer/internet when you are sleeping/not watching).

If you bring your kids, and you take care of them, I don't have to. If you leave your kids at home, someone else takes care of them, so I don't have to, cool!

There's no right or wrong answer, just a lot of very emotional people, even more emotional when it comes to you telling other people how to raise their kids.

It is nice that we can be adults and discuss the realitys and beliefs on such a tuchy subject.

Most of all, have a FUN burn, it's what you have waited all year for

[gyre]

I can't BRIBE my 18 yo daughter to go to BM, she says, "it's dumb"
My 9.5 yo daughter asked me a couple days ago: "can I PLEASE go to burning man?"
I had to tell her, "maybe next year"
She will absolutely LOVE it, she's seen us ready ourselves for YEARS for BM and regionals with starry eyes and I can't WAIT to take her. I am also pregnant right now, so since I will be breastfeeding in 2008 during BM, it may just be the year I finally take the kids... I can't WAIT!
Why would I want to be part of something I couldn't share with the people I love most?

Unless she was born boring, there is a burning man out there for her.
You just need to convince her that there is one to her tastes out there for her.
You can find as much intellectual challenge or wanton silliness as you like out there.
I find I can't figure out where I fall in that.
Even Malcolm in the Middle figured out the different events for different people part.
It really is true that a different point of view will change your event dramatically.
I find I ignore some things completely, sometimes because they are boring but more often because they are too time consuming for me....this trip.
There are some incredibly brilliant and creative people out there.
And people of amazing generosity and sweetness.
That is what makes the trip worthwhile to me.

But I would go just to see the artcars.

Does she know there will be artcars?

[Trixy]

Quote :"
I can't BRIBE my 18 yo daughter to go to BM, she says, "it's dumb" >


Well, duh, anything the parents of an [i]18 year [/i]old do is "dumb" !!

[theCryptofishist]

This human species has survived millions of years, in much worse conditions than these we encounter

Except for the inuit and similier cultures. Humans haven't. lived in places without vegitation.

[MikeVDS]

Another FACT: there is NO regeneration of lung tissue, not even kids. The lung tissue does not have the ability to regenerate.

Can you give me a source? My grandfather who smoked most of his life recently went through a procedure that from what I understand cut out most of the damaged areas of his lungs which allowed the lungs to regenerate. Sounded pretty amazing that they could remove large portions of his lungs and they would grow back.

After a simple google search, it seems that lung regeneration is likely something that does happen.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=lu ... gle+Search

[Trixy]

Lung Volume Reduction Surgery, that's probably the surgery he had.
Here's a quote from American Lung Assoc.

Lung Volume Reduction Surgery Fact Sheet
August 2005

Lung Volume Reduction Surgery (LVRS) is a procedure to help people with severe emphysema. LVRS is not a cure for emphysema but can improve one's quality of life and can be an alternative to lung transplantation. The goal of the surgery is to reduce the size of the lungs by removing about 30% of the most diseased lung tissues so that the remaining healthier portion can perform better. LVRS can also allow the diaphragm to return to its normal shape, allowing the patient to breathe more efficiently. The surgery has been shown to help improve breathing ability, lung capacity, and overall quality of life.

With this surgery, volume is removed so that the remaining parts can expand more. With a disease like emphysema/chronic bronchitis/asthma (all lumped together in the term COPD---chronic pulmonare obstructive disease) the lungs lose their elasticity, their ability to stretch. This stretch is used to fill the lungs with air, and help the air to get back out. Due to long term smoking/air pollutents/disease the lungs don't stretch anymore, and are fully stretched out. Thus, people with COPD have a "barrell chest" the lungs can't stretch anymore, thus the feeling of shortness of breath. They can't take in anymore air, as their lungs are full stretched at rest cycle of the breath.

When you take out a portion of lung, the rest of the lung now has some more room to stretch. Thus the lung is a little more effective, however, the lung did NOT regenerate. We have NO cure for COPD. We have lot's of treatments, drugs, exercises, surgical procedures, but nothing to cure it. There may be some hope in the future with stem cell research (so contact your senators), but currently there's no fix.

Some people get "better" with pulmonary rehab. This again is not the lungs getting "better". This is the rest of the system (heart, skeletal muscles) becoming more efficient, making the person less short of breath, when doing something physical. Even after smoking cessation, the lungs don't get better. Some people feel better, that's the lungs going back to a more efficient state, the muco-cilliary escalator working again, and the inflammation reduction due to less irritants.

So as far as my professional experience is concerned, we can get a diseased set of lungs some help, but there's no cure once the damage is done.

At this time, and to the best of my knowledge, there is no treatment available (there may be some studies going on that are not yet published), that help the lung to "regrow" to a point that adds any benefit to the person's life. There is LOTS of research going on around the world, as lung disease is a major killer, but I don't know of anything that makes new lung tissue in an adult. With neonates, there is lung growth out of utero, but only to the point that they would have grown to in utero.

Hope this helps clarify, sorry if not. I don't know it all, but I've been in the field for 15 years, and I'm not aware of the lungs ability to regrow in such a manner as to be beneficial at all, at this point in time.

[SaltPhoenix]

gyre: I'm just waiting on the day... I believe it too, it's just hard for me to accept she's not ready NOW...

trixy: that's the only thing i can figure... and guess what? she LOVES the mall, does that say anything else? lol

[gyre]

Tell her she can't go.
Tell her it's too much fun for her still soft brain.
Tell her no fun of any kind.

That would be the mall.

[MikeVDS]

I was just reading some stuff and just realized that kids (under 12) get in free. I was under the impression that everyone paid. That gives the anti-kid crowd one more thing to complain about and the pro-kid crowd one more reason to bring them. Haha.

*stirs the pot*

[honeyfire]

burnerboy33 sayed:
"So, what I am saying is BM is a good place for kids who have responsible parents. ... Good parents would make for a good BM experience, bad parenting would make for a bad BM experience. "

As regards the kids side of thing, bb33 has said it all.


As regards the adults side...

Shagy sayed:
"Stay home with your babies, Burning Man is an adult community."

How do you figure that this is your decision to make?

"bringing them to BM is like summer school for all of society's aberrations and perversions"

Only if the parents actually subject the kids to those areas of BM. There's plenty around that doesn't involve sex or drugs, and it's not your decision as to whether the sight of sex or drugs are approriate for someone else's kids.

"Kids are a buzz kill. They present too much reality for the ultimate playa experience. I don't want to see them; I don't want to hear them." - bolds mine

Ah, now we get to the meat of the matter...

You can do the same thing with the kids as the kids can do with you and as i can do with people with piercings that hurt just to look at:

Don't look.

If you don't want your BM experience sullied by contact with kids, leave them be. If they don't want their experince sullied by contact with you, they can do the same.

I was raised by freak parents who exposed me to tons of stuff considered "inappropriate" for children, with the exception of major violence (how much of that is there at BM?), and i am one of the sanest and emotionally balanced people i know, and i know a LOT of sane emotionally balanced people, thank you. I thank my parents for letting me experience more than just the Disney version of the world.
What other people feel appropriate, or not, to expose their children to is not your decision. I'd sooner take a 6 year old to BM than to a Bible summer camp. Others would go the other way.

The other matter that needs touching on is this:

If children are causing an *actual* problem for you and you can find their parents, LET THE PARENTS KNOW!

Not having a problem with letting your 8 year old see an 18 foot penis is NOT the same thing as letting her get into other people's stuff or their activities. If you politely ask a child to leave you or your stuff alone and they don't, their parents need to know that this is not okay for kids any more than it is for adults.

Telling a parent that it's wrong to expose their kids to BM is not okay.
Telling a parent, politely, that their kid is causing an *actual* problem and that you don't accept it from an 8 year old any more than a 28 year old is reasonable and necessary.

[Rat Bastard]

This is like watching a tennis match. Boring.

PARENTS... Here's a thought. The redlight district neighborhood for 2007 is at 9:00 from D through G. Don't let you kids go over there. Unless their over 18. It is NOT going to be an area conducive to kids especially at night. Unless you want to show them a crash course in sexuallity and alternative lifestyles. Would any parents let their kid go hang out in front of a stripclub? This is just an FYI for parents.

Bring your kid. But know where they go. I wouldn't walk into a kids camp naked wearing a big shiny cock ring with my naked wife wearing her strap-on. I think the same logic should be applied by parents when it comes to the adult camps.

There's many awesome and very inspiring things to see and do at BM. We're all kids at heart. I think there's something for everybody. Yet everything isn't for somebody.

see ya when yer dusty!

[fromMA]

As W.C. Fields said:

I like children. If they're properly cooked