Suggestions from 2007 for 2008

[bleurose51]

Banning RVs is probably an interesting thing to ponder. We went in an RV this year for the first time and it was very enjoyable (fresh shower water every day without the need to deal with greywater problems). However, I also realized that some of the "burning man" experience got lost in our shelter. And I agree, it would definitely keep out a LOT of people who were lost last week. But there would still be idiots in tents who would cause problems too, but probably not as many.

The problem is that if you do that, what do you do with the big trucks that haul in all the art and stages, etc? If you ban RVs, you have to ban them too. That would radically reduce the level of the art, etc.

I think the number of RVs had risen dramatically in the past 4-5 years. My last BM was 2003 until this year, and it seems like it went from something like 20% of the vehicles to 50%. Do others feel the same?

[Mr_Understanding]

I have to agree that reducing the numbers of RVs would add a certain hardcore flavor to the event that a lot of pampered people would shy away from. Having had a van last year to camp in, and having to do it in a tent through the dust storms this year, I certainly ached for the happy, metal enclosure to protect me against the elements -- but I'd also happily go in a tent again.

There are of course the transportation issues for art, and the health problems of some people require that they have an RV -- but frankly, I see no reason why people couldn't get RV permits just like art car registration. I don't think limiting the number or requiring a reason should necessarily be part of the process, but I can guarantee that if the permiting shut down 45 days before the event, plenty of last minute people who wouldn't go if they couldn't live in that kind of comfort wouldn't come, and a lot of people would simply miss the deadline, just like every other application process.

[frndlyjen]

First of all, let me just say, GREAT JOB and THANK YOU to all the artists, volunteers, organizers, rangers, medics, etc.. I for one had a great year and couldn't be more grateful.

I agree that What Where When was not good. Worst of all, because it was multiple bits of paper, it ended up being moop. There must be a better way. Listing very brief descriptions of each event, in order by time and date, and listing LOCATION (6:00 and Evolution or whatever), would be plenty. Then there could still be a backup guide with more info if needed.

Also, if we could stock the WWW's at Playa Info, that would help a great many people.

What if, in addition to the WWW, we had an event board of some kind in Center Camp? Something large enough to be seen from a distance? I only say this because many events change time and place and many get scheduled last minute, and it would be really nice, when sitting in Center Camp sipping my coffee, if I could just look up and see that Mutaytor is going to be playing at Tsunami in 30 minutes. Maybe that's too much like a bus depot, but it's a thought.

I LOVE the idea of the Survival Guide quiz being a requirement for entry! Maybe it could even be administered by the greeters? I don't want to put more burden on them (they are awesome already) but who else is there at the front gate? Also, maybe they should check for water supply.

It'd be really nice if the greeters would at least reiterate some basics - wear glow sticks or blinkies at night, don't leave moop and pick it up when you see it, carry water at all times, and don't bring your keys, passport, valuables, out with you on the playa if you might lose them, make nice with your neighbors, and try to be respectful of others and their own experiences.

Maybe what could happen is, the people who board your vehicle give you a checklist of the above, and then the greeters, up ahead, give you a quick quiz before you can gain entry. Just a thought.

By the way, my fellow burners, if you see someone without a glow stick at night, or without water on the deep playa during the day, maybe you should gift them? We all need a little help now and then. Even the frat boys. Let's promote a culture of gifting!

[echohaus]

The kind of help frat boys need isn't going to be administered with a glow stick.

[VikingNomad]

I think the spirit gets lost when people do it as a last minute thing. I've seen lots of posts where people seemed to be coming because an annual BBQ wasn't happening this year. I like a lot of ideas I'm seeing like a cap on tickets at 40,000, a deadline for gate closing, etc.

I was reading what frndlyjen wrote about gifting glow. Our camp brought out a ton of glow stuff. Most people really appreciated it because they came unprepared. But, oddly some declined. I remember one example, saying to one guy passing by on mid-deep playa, "Hey man, want a glow stick or blinkie necklace so you don't get hit by a bike". He said, "No... Thanks anyway". I kind of stood there stunned for a second. That's like, "No thanks, I'd rather become a speed bump and ruin someone else’s time and mine".

Maybe the guy was tripping hard and needed darkness; maybe he just was having a bad time and had a blowout with a camp mate. I don't know. But, I know it would have been a harsh experience if I clocked into someone on the deep playa on my bike and needed to get them to the medical tent from deep playa.

The common thread of an issue I'm seeing is that there were too many people out there who were clueless about water, lighting, moop, sound, and a few other items which cause issues for burners and organizers.

Keep the ideas coming on how to get everyone on the same page for an even better burn next year!!!!

[bleurose51]

My wife had an interesting idea.

1. Start having a separate ticket for people and vehicles. Vehicle tickets should be based on size and should be limited. I.e., no more than say 5,000 RV tickets and 2,500 big truck tickets would be sold. Cut off sales for RV tickets on August 15 or some earlier date. This would eliminate the last-minute "cruisers" who are possibly the biggest problem. If you are coming in your RV, at least plan ahead. Otherwise, bring your car and rough it.

Vehicles have a disproportionate impact on the event compared to people. The more vehicles and the bigger vehicles (i.e., trucks, RVs), the more likely you are to get inexperienced people OR people setting up large camps. The latter isn't bad, but then the vehicle cost can be spread across the members of the camp/village. RVs with a few people are a HUGE impact on the playa.

Also, car tickets would encourage ride-sharing although there are limits here, since cars have limited storage capacity and that may be counter to the goal. The ideal is probably two people per car with sufficient stuff to last the week.

2. Set up a parking area for walk-in camping. Cars in the parking area could NOT be used for camping and the area would have a separate exit. No charge at all for cars parked in this area (just the person ticket).

If the cost per vehicle was something like $100 per car or pickup truck, $250-500 per RV depending on length and $500 for big vans and big trucks, and RV ticket sales were cut-off early (between August 1 and 15), you would (a) reduce the unprepared last-minute lookie-loos, and (b) possibly reduce the per person cost of a ticket by offsetting some of the income with vehicle-related income.

This is a first shot, I am sure it could use refinement, but I think it is an interesting idea.

[Smudge]

Transformus, the NC regional burn banned both class A rv's and 5th wheel trailer rv's mainly for land protection reasons. This still allows smaller trailers that can be towed via hitch, as well as pickup type campers and small van campers. I was biking around on Landfill and noticed repeatedly that the largest RV's churned out maybe ten times as much dust as medium rv's or cars. The space they took up was also comparable to what a camp of ten well equipped people might take up. Space for camping is certainly getting to be an issue.

[run_w_xcors]

I'm guilty of bringing an RV this year, mainly because my newbie GF wanted to come and she'd probably have killed me after Thursdays dust storm if she didn't have a place to get outta the dust. Sure, dust is part of BM and we should all be able to live with it, but YMMV. Here's a breakdown on what I thought of it though:

Pros:

-We got to haul almost all of our camp's crap along with 6 people-comfortably
-Large windblock and anchor for shade structures. None of our crap ended up in anyone elses camp, and we had a few loose items when we came back on Thurs, all still in place.
-Shower water and grey water all contained (we skipped using the toilet)
-Quiet generator for camp power
-Great place to get out of the elements

Cons:
-Expensive (rental fees and gas)
-Gas guzzler (haha green man!! I still burned less gas than just about every theme camp or flame installation)
-eye sore?
-uncreative solution

I think a van with a trailer and some kind of yurt or other element eliminating structure would be a hell of alot cheaper and efficient and more "burner" in nature and will probably go that route from here on out (assuming I return). But I don't really see a need for banning RVs altogether.

Lights: I don't wear lights on my body at night. I can't stand glowies, blinkies or most other forms of artificial light. I did bring a lantern, but never used it. I do light my bike with amber solar lawn lights with socks over them. Much to my surprise they were a giant hit and people called them 8 different kinds of flower. I even had an art car get mad at me because I was in the deep playa and they came over to me and my girl and said "Oh man, you suck, we thought you were art". Guess they didn't like my outfit.

I refuse lights when people give them to me, but I know the dangers and if I'm going to be walking away from the population w/out my bike I just grab one of the socks. Bike's lit, I'm lit.

WWW sucked ass. But, it gave me something to do while getting out of the mid-day sun. Regardless event, time and location should all be in one spot...details could easily be in the back.

As for n00b behavior, all I can say is you're just as much to blame if you saw bad behavior and didn't say anything. I got on people all the time and my GF was making fun of me being a hardass. But hey, if you want people to act a certain way, you need to tell them, they certainly aren't going to read your mind. And if the organizers aren't vigilant about making sure participants how the fuck they should be acting, the citizens will have to. If you're too afraid of doing it, designate a hardass in your crew and point shit out for him/her to take care of. Make it a game. Give rewards.

[bleurose51]

I don't think anyone should think of themselves as "guilty" of bringing an RV. I have been to 5 burns, this is the first with an RV, and I don't feel guilty. As Jack pointed out, there were a LOT of pros and a few cons. As a relatively experienced burner, I used my RV as I think it should be used, as shelter during the really tough storms, and for getting clean without destroying the playa (yay showers!) We still used the portapotties for the most part (although I enjoyed being able to just use the RV toilet late on Saturday when the portas were REALLY crudded up and were almost all out of toilet paper). Otherwise, it was just like previous years in a dome or tent.

The current rules permit RVs and those of us who can afford them bring them if we want. The problem isn't the people who bring RVs, its the fact that RVs enable certain people to do Burning Man without any real understanding of the event and that needs to be headed off at the pass. I do think that late ticket purchasers are the main problem, and worse, the late ticket purchasers who bring RVs on short notice (and understand, its not ALL of them, but enough that it causes a problem).

The idea of charging for vehicles separate from people is a good one, I think, as it allows an independent charged based on the impact of each attendee (either person or vehicle) and it also allows cutting off sales for one without hurting the other. Cutting off RV tickets at the end of July doesn't mean you can't come to Burning Man, but you had better be prepared to deal with the rough conditions and this will disillusion some "last minute newbies" I am sure.

I don't think cutting tickets sales off early will help all that much because as I pointed out previously, once ticket sales are cutoff, there is a much higher incentive to scalp so someone will set up a scalping business and newbies will show up anyway, just having paid more for the ticket (and that makes them MORE trouble because the higher the ticket price, the more entitlement some people seem to feel).

Keep selling tickets right up until Friday as in the past, but sell tickets for cars and cut off sales for RVs early. Yes, there may some scalping there, but if you limit purchase of RV permits to one per address, that would help.

[bleurose51]

Oh, and also maybe its time to move the people and vehicle perimeters around the Man burn back a ways. My last burn, 2003, had 33,000, this one was almost 50,000, almost a 50% increase. Yet, as best as I can tell, the perimeters for both people and art cars hasn't changed a bit. Anyone who understands geometry will realize that moving the people perimeter back 50 feet will have a tremendous benefit in spreading people out around the circle watching the burn. This will reduce pushing, crowding, trampling, "down in front" nosense and make the entire experience much better. And yet, it won't significantly impact the view of the experience much at all (there are already plenty of people standing this far back from the current perimeter and further and they have a great view.)

The vehicle perimeter is even more important. Art cars now literally circle the entire space. 4 years ago, you could actually stand behind the art cars and see between them because the density was much less. Now, that is almost impossible. This forces more people to have to move inside the vehicle perimeter.

In Alaska, they make the BIG cruise ships stay 1 mile away from the coast but small boats can go up as close as they want. Ditto for art cars and bikes on the playa. Let the bikes get closer (although someone suggested a separate periemeter for bikes and that might also be a good idea) but force the art cars further away to allow more room for people to see.

Out.

[bleurose51]

Maybe its even time to have more organized "viewing" areas. The worst thing this year was the number of people who tried to crowd in front of those who were already sitting or standing, as if coming late was justification to push and shove through the crowd to get a better view.

Most of the time, people would say BS like "oh, my friends are down there in front" and if you let them through, invariably they ended up just finding a spot and sitting down and it became apparent quickly that they had no friends, they just were scamming for a better position.

I'd hate to turn the playa into a bunch of slots, but if people are going to continue to act like 4-year olds, maybe it will become necessary. If there were a series of concentric rings marked off, and once a ring was filled, no one else was allowed to sit there, it might be easier to control the crowds. However, it will take policing and burners clearly don't like a lot of policing. Radical self-reliance also requires radical courtesy, something a lot of burners (particularly uneducated newbies) seem to lack.

[honeyfire]

I'm very back and forth on the various aspects of RV thing.
Having a cutoff date for permits for them is an idea i like a lot.
Having them cost even more i'm less wild about, as this is already a really expensive endeavor.
The big deal with RV's for me personally is not the comfort (nice, but i can easily live without), it's the dust-shelter.
I have asthma, for which practically the only major trigger is, you got it, dust.
Is it more of a buzzkill to be "that girl in the RV" or "that girl who had to be airlifted to a hospital"? *snork*

bleurose points out:
"The problem isn't the people who bring RVs, its the fact that RVs enable certain people to do Burning Man without any real understanding of the event..."

You got that right, darlin'!

Now what do we do about it?

[VikingNomad]

I think if people want to bring an RV that's okay. Lots of people have disabilities or health issues and need them. But, I also know how they can shelter people from the experience as well as the environment.

If someone missed out on the experience because they RV'd, that's their loss. As long as they're lit up biking or walking at night and always drinking water and observing the principles of Burning Man I'm okay with that.

I've seen a lot of complaints about go-peds, and art cars that are decorated and not able to pick up passengers and aren't really art cars, but more personal thansportation for those too lazy to walk or bike.

Got any more ideas for how to handle the traffic or the unread newbies?

[bleurose51]

By the way, I believe any 3- or 4-wheel undecorated vehicles that were tooling around were probably licensed for disabled patrons. That is permitted by the rules.

[mars]

<<By>>

Seems to me they should have an identifying placard (artfully done, of course). This would help discourage people from thinking that they, too, can drive around in an undecorated golf cart. I still don't understand, though, why, even if they are used for carting disabled people, they can't be spiffed up a bit...I've heard decorated golf carts are more fun than undecorated golf carts by at least 53%.

[AntiM]

We were inside the Great Circle early, earlier than the performers and the rangers. I laughed when I watched a group of people come up to our pie segment, put up lawn chairs and settle in. I knew exactly what was going to happen the moment the rangers came on. Yep, down went the chairs, or they moved further back.

Our drummers had decided to give the chair people an upfront, close and personal experience and set up right in front of them. Turns out they didn't need to, but we were all rolling our eyes at chairs on the perimeter. I've never seen that addressed for newbs, but perhaps it should be. It happened at the regional too, chairs right on the perimeter in the best spots. Maybe no one told them is was a burning faux pas. They know now.

That just ain't the way it works.

[MistDance]

Agreed! (Everything!)

I wanted to find the sex activites but had a hard time finding them, then - Finding their camp! We flipped those pages till they were ear marked and dusty, still it was rarely a treasure map we could follow to a chest full of goodies! Somtimes - we did get lucky. Yeah!

My suggestion - Theme camps take up loads of space that went unused while the campers where squished into Landfill Road. (never saw the toilets for those out in the badlands! - poor dears...)
We get kicked out from one theme marker spot to another on Monday morning only to find, no theme ever came into that spot!
If by Wed a theme has not rooted, can it be open for all?
Perhaps more camper friendly spots interspersed with the themes so those of us who enter Sunday Midnight can still find a spot open. (from C's - F's asking too much?)
With the theme camps getting so much prime city space, there are going to be more and more people who register for Theme and not be open for general public. Its turned into a freaking private party with ability to make reservations yet keep the pee-ons out of their club. Open it up. Less space for Theme, more space for the campers who like to visit their neighbors, meet people and use their space as an Open house.
Oh - Maybe a Open House flag! -- Make it Yellow or something to designate those who are actually - OPEN! WANT to MEET the Neighbors neighborhoods!

NO GENERATORS after say... 2am if its not for something special?
The guy next to us ran his just - because. Go figure with a green theme they wanted to run an engine for no reason (vacant camp) and keep all the day dwellers up all night.
Made no sense.

I know - rules! Consideration should not have to have a rule.

More than anything - I loved the event.

FYI - Watch out for bunjee cords whipping in the wind. Ouch! Can that be added to the survival guide?

For the First Timers - There are people who can take care of themselves and plan their stay then there are people who will let others do it all for them. First year or the sixth...
No getting around it.
Hugs!
N

[AntiM]

Perhaps more camper friendly spots interspersed with the themes so those of us who enter Sunday Midnight can still find a spot open. (from C's - F's asking too much?)

Huhsville was on 7:00 between C and F, double village block. The back half of our block was AEZ. On our side, we were surrounded on all three sides with open camping. That fits your request!

Hushville was crowded to the point people arriving later in the week had to park elsewhere after dropping off their camping gear. Monday we were playing musical vehicles just to fit in all the camps. Guywires overlapped, paths were narrowed, we were in like sardines. Ohio even eyed our bike parking area for a single tenter. Not a private party by any means, Hushers are very social, individually so, but social none-the-less. And given the interest, we could have filled the entire double block to capacity. Plus we had interactive camps on the perimeters of our village, like, ahem, my Home for Wayward Art. Not exclusive at all.

[mars]

OH, I just want to add that the Ice Outposts were GREAT! My suggestion: do 'em again!

[barnz]

...I've heard decorated golf carts are more fun than undecorated golf carts by at least 53%.

Coincidentally, studies have determined that 53% of statistics are made up.

[MistDance]

Yeah!
Sweet - Hopefully your more the rule rather than the exception.
All I can comment on it the experience I have had/seen/done.

We had people come in later, they pitched the tent and parked where possible. Squished out the blue flag lines and became part of the community when/where possible.
Maybe its the guilt Im fighting!

RV debate - I drove in with a truck with a trailer. My 17 foot trailer had everything needed to cook and sleep out of the dust yet had too little space to shelter me away from the bigger BM experience. Yeah, A/C is nice but I didn't have it. Wouldn't use it if I did. Heat is just part of the experience! Spritz with a water bottle - Its green friendly and makes no sounds.

Maybe limit the size of trailers and RV's - It would limit the impact on the playa and give more room for others.
Theme camps that were around us - GREAT FOLKS! Im not bashing them at all. Im asking those who disguise themselves as a Theme Camp, actually buck-up and be part of what they sign up for.
They have become Private parties who have reservations campers cant get - They have become - Another matter.
There is a difference between the Theme camp and the Private Party who masquerades as a Theme camp.
Consideration.....
Thank you for being considerate of the campers!
Again, I love the event. Adore the community. Enjoy all that is given by expression and view. thankyouthankyouthankyou! (all you theme persons who know what they are doing and do it right - you know who you are... Our THanks to you!)

Perhaps the RV argument and the Private Party discussion is the same.

Limit the RV size and amount by cost, in turn it limits the space a theme camp takes (in this I'm talking about a private party which calls itself a theme camp), you'll open things up for everyone.

THEN - We can find the Actual THEME camps that are so much fun and so enjoyed by everyone!
We wont have to sort through the muck of pretenders to find the real deal.
Love the real deal.

hugs,
N

[ScottV]

<crotchetyoldman>
The event turns to crap every Friday.
Close the gates Wednesday midnight.

I don't care that you can't get off of work.
The Burning Man experience is surviving the week.
You can't see everything in 10 days, 2 or 3 days is near useless (man burn, temple burn, pictures of art that was graffitied and burned by the tourists, time to leave).
It takes two days just to acclimate.

Just watch the streets, Friday morning there are 100s of yahoos with no costumes or playa gear taking pictures. Friday night the darkwads come out in droves. The bike stealing begins in earnest. Trash starts appearing on the playa and even veteran burners start to give up on cleaning up after the clueless.


Out of the last six years I came late one year - didn't get it until Monday, what a short week.
This year I left early on Sunday - next year maybe Friday - most of the real community is overwhelmed and starting to lock things and post guards by then.
</crotchetyoldman>


The next radical departure would be to ban any fossil fuel motorized "art car" that could carry less than 20 people. Most of the traffic and fumes out there was personal transportation dressed up as art cars. Anything smaller should be electric or human powered.

[honeyfire]

A single specific section on the eplaya for rideshares! :nodding sagely
It gets freakin' tiresome wading through rideshare threads on every freakin' board on the entire freakin' eplaya.

A section for rideshares, with individual pages for Northern and Southern sections of each time zone and ones for SoCal, Bay Area, NYC, and whatever other metro's get enough listings to need their own page.

It would enable people who need/are offering rides to find each other much more quickly and easily, while keeping the rest of us from tripping over someone's luggage by the eroadside as they wait for a ride.

[AntiM]

A single specific section on the eplaya for rideshares! :nodding sagely
It gets freakin' tiresome wading through rideshare threads on every freakin' board on the entire freakin' eplaya.

A section for rideshares, with individual pages for Northern and Southern sections of each time zone and ones for SoCal, Bay Area, NYC, and whatever other metro's get enough listings to need their own page.

It would enable people who need/are offering rides to find each other much more quickly and easily, while keeping the rest of us from tripping over someone's luggage by the eroadside as they wait for a ride.

Post this down in feature requests, in eplaya feedback. It may do more good there.

[LilBuddha]

An argument in favor of RV's. They are completely self-contained, no tent stakes, no grey water, no moop flying around at meal preparation time. The community benefits from extra shelter, sanitation, water and refrigeration capacity for those who might find they need it. Certain reasonable restrictions could make the event RV-friendly, including restrictions on generators (which are highly annoying) and possibly restrictions on location (face it: they are all about being in the suburbs).

All are welcome at the Airstream of Consciousness. Drop by. :)

[chickenvogt]

i imagine this may not be a very popular opinion , but i say : ban all r.v.'s and trailers...self reliance becomes more of a reality when not sitting in your revving , air conditioned tin can during 4 hour white out sand storms...just a thought.

[mars]

...ban all r.v.'s and trailers...self reliance becomes more of a reality when not sitting in your revving , air conditioned tin can during 4 hour white out sand storms...just a thought.

I'm curious where you get the idea that that's the sum of what all RV'ers do. Did you make that up? You are way off, CV.

Do you not know that many R.V.ers are people who bust their butts on huge art projects and theme camps and barely spend any more time in thier RV than a person who has a tent. And RV'ers have the added advantage of being able to responsibly handle their grey water. How many grey water systems failed on the playa this year? None of them belonged to RV'ers.

And you want to ban trailers?! Shit, I think we should ban all cars and only let people in who can walk there.

[Ugly Dougly]

RV's won't be banned until one runs someone over. Simple fact.

[chickenvogt]

someones panties are in a bind! i did say it was not a "popular opinion "and i also said it was "just a thought." i was also looking at the overall population. IMO, "if" RVs were not allowed, it would cutout a large # of yahoos and tourists............again, "just a thought"!

[quote="mars"][quote="chickenvogt"]...ban all r.v.'s and trailers...self reliance becomes more of a reality when not sitting in your revving , air conditioned tin can during 4 hour white out sand storms...just a thought.[/quote]

I'm curious where you get the idea that that's the sum of what all RV'ers do. Did you make that up? You are way off, CV.

Do you not know that many R.V.ers are people who bust their butts on huge art projects and theme camps and barely spend any more time in thier RV than a person who has a tent. And RV'ers have the added advantage of being able to responsibly handle their grey water. How many grey water systems failed on the playa this year? None of them belonged to RV'ers.

And you want to ban trailers?! Shit, I think we should ban all cars and only let people in who can walk there.[/quote] :roll:

[unjonharley]

RV's won't be banned until one runs someone over. Simple fact.

\/
that can be arranged.. i have a list of canadates.. just throwing it out there )