Kids at BM...the ongoing battle

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.
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Apollonaris Zeus
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Re: Responsible parenting

Post by Apollonaris Zeus » Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:55 pm

anticdevices wrote: Burning Man is an environment filled with heat and cold and dust. It is unsuitable. Children and infants cannot survive under these conditions. Thousands of children are irreparably harmed at Burning Man every year; this is a scientific fact.
You forgot the scientific fact that most end up being served as food in center camp!

transgirl
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Post by transgirl » Fri Aug 24, 2007 6:51 pm

Well folks it's been about a year, and I've realized that I'll probably be "that mother" bringing any and all future children every time I go, if at all possible. Purely hypothetical children,...regardless, I'll be straping them on my back if I have to.

My feet didn't rot off in the last 11 months, and I'm sure I've done more damage to my lungs picking up smoking again than breathing dust on the playa for a week. (I think the upcoming week is a perfect time to kick the habit again).

I'm sure I'll be running around butt naked with them too. Maybe not all night raving or anything....at least until they are 8 yrs old.... 2am bedtime sounds reasonable...won't let them be exposed to the more adult side however....actually I wasn't really exposed to the adult side myself somehow...

Kids seemed to have a blast out there...Burning man was a beautiful experience for me. Surely it could be for (my very hypothetical) future spawn.

...They'd probably grow up and be Micheal Savage fans or something hideous but I'd risk it.

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theCryptofishist
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Post by theCryptofishist » Fri Aug 24, 2007 11:18 pm

by the time they grow up, Micheal Savage will be dead.
The Lady with a Lamprey

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Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

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Valkyrie
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Post by Valkyrie » Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:07 pm

Or maybe just disgraced like Rush Limbaugh. It kills me that the guy still has a following after admitting he's the kind of person he has humiliated all these years.
It's hard to have a normal conversation with someone with 6' acrylic rods strapped to your back.

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kikidelosfeliz
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Post by kikidelosfeliz » Fri Sep 14, 2007 11:30 am

We have a burning baby girl, who just turned two, and a nine year old boy. We've been debating taking the kids, and so far have not. This year, we went alone to have some time to ourselves, which was lovely. But next year might possibly be the year I bring my son. He really wants to go, and has asked all kinds of questions about it. I think he's old enough to deal with what ever occurs. I don't think we'll bring our little girl yet, due to the dust, heat, and noise. As far as what they would see or experience, I personally have had nothing but wonderful interactions with people out there. You can take what you like and leave the rest. And Kidsville is so lovely that I'd like to camp there even without bringing the kids!
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ecomain
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Post by ecomain » Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:34 pm

Leave the children at home please! My girl and I intentionally camped as far out as we could for a combination of peace and privacy. After we were all settled for a day and a night, up rolls a 50-foot mega motorhome and with four kids from 8 to 15, three of them girls.

I'd never bring my kids to BM. For me, Burning Man is an adult vacation full of debauchery for the sake of debauchery and other forms of creative exploration. For many people it is a raw event with emotions on the surface and far fewer inhibitions.

We were nude when the motorhome drove up, hoping they'd continue on.

Throughout their stay, I could tell the kids were constantly sneaking peaks. A 12-year-old girl looking at my dick felt very creepy. The fact that they were sneaking indicates a problem from the get-go. The parents (two couples) came out from New York because they wanted to see burning man. They were lurkers, stating curiosity, but very prudish in their actions. It was like an adult thing for them, but they didn't participate because their kids were there, they said. Yet, they let their kids run around making loud kid noises whenever we tried to sleep. So we got louder with our sex trying to make them put the kids to bed. We probably could have been friends with the adults if they hadn't brought their kids.

I got the impression that the experience opened up a world seemingly without rules with far too much exposure to all the things parents don't want to see their kids doing when young. Kids are mimics. Their programming comes from what they see adults do. And the line between the burning man world and acceptance in the real world is blurry to them. I mean really, do 8-15 year old boys and girls really need to be watching naked adult strangers at BM? Seeing adults who in regular society are their role models do drugs, be drunk, have sex?

When they are over 18 and have earned the right of passage, by all means, let them migrate to burning man. You can't do anything to stop them at that time anyway. But do not contribute to their delinquency by bringing them younger than that.

You are not only giving them mental scars: you are also diminishing the experience for other adult burners. Because even though we may act like we don't care, many of us still keep an eye out for their safety even though it is not our responsibility. And we don't want that distraction.

With an open mind I tried to read posts by parents bringing their children. But in the final analysis I can't justify their actions. The only conclusion I can come to is the parents themselves are so damaged they don't realize what they are doing to their children and don't care how the presence of their children diminishes the experience for most Burners.

If you can't find someone to watch your kids while you go to BM, don't go. Bringing your kids is selfish and to their detriment. Sorry, but that's the way I feel about it.
Those that do not fight tyranny deserve it, for complacency grants license to the oppressors. -Aramis

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Das Bus
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Post by Das Bus » Sat Sep 15, 2007 2:27 am

ecomain wrote: The only conclusion I can come to is the parents themselves are so damaged they don't realize what they are doing to their children and don't care how the presence of their children diminishes the experience for most Burners.

If you can't find someone to watch your kids while you go to BM, don't go. Bringing your kids is selfish and to their detriment. Sorry, but that's the way I feel about it.
NOT having my children at Burning Man would dimish the experience for ME.

Children have been present from the VERY first Burn, have you? If all Burning man is to you is sex and drugs, then I feel sorry for you.

But it doesn't really matter what you or I think; it's LARRY's party, and he WANTS families there.
Medicated and Motivated!

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Das Bus
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Post by Das Bus » Sat Sep 15, 2007 2:31 am

kikidelosfeliz wrote: And Kidsville is so lovely that I'd like to camp there even without bringing the kids!
Thank You! I'm very proud of what we do in KidsVille, and when you're ready, you and your children are more than welcome to camp with us! : )

Lora
Mayor of KidsVille 2007
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ecomain
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Post by ecomain » Sun Sep 16, 2007 6:00 pm

[quote]"Children have been present from the VERY first Burn, have you? If all Burning man is to you is sex and drugs, then I feel sorry for you."
[/quote]

That first part doesn't make any sense. Have the same children been present from the very first burn?

To the second. I didn't do drugs at Burning Man this year. And you've certainly been having sex, otherwise you wouldn't have kids to bring. Sounds hypocritical.

If you are going to bring your kids, at least keep them in kidsville, if kidsville is for kids.

Disneyland was created for kids. I don't go there and act up to diminish their experience. Burning Man is for adults primarily. Maybe kids should be restricted to designated areas and let us have some places where we don't worry about kids being around.
Those that do not fight tyranny deserve it, for complacency grants license to the oppressors. -Aramis

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Zulegoona
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Post by Zulegoona » Sun Sep 16, 2007 6:05 pm

ecomain wrote:
That first part doesn't make any sense. Have the same children been present from the very first burn?.
Yes the first time Larry burned a man on the beach kids were there, from day one.

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Kinetik V
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Post by Kinetik V » Sun Sep 16, 2007 7:13 pm

Burning Man is for adults primarily. Maybe kids should be restricted to designated areas and let us have some places where we don't worry about kids being around.
I strongly disagree, BRC is a community that has something to offer people of all ages. Putting blanket restrictions on kids across the city just so a small minority of adults can engage in adult specific activities seems draconian...surely it's not that much trouble to design an access restricted camp and to control your own turf...and immediate experience. Besides, isn't that what the so called "red light district" was created for to begin with?

On top of all this, Larry is aware of this ongoing tempest in a teapot and has already spoken on the matter. He supports kids being at the event, the ORG supports Kidsville, and all this bleating and blathering isn't going to change that. Here, take a look for yourself.....

http://www.burningman.com/preparation/e ... at_bm.html

Some of my more interesting and spontaneous interactions on the playa have come from kids...the slice of watermelon out of the blue, the cutest little butterfly costumes I've seen, the little boy riding on his dad's shoulders and asking a million questions as his eyes lit up and his mind was engaged....having kids out there sure beats having them stay at home playing on the Playstation or being stuck on some social networking site. Plus sometimes they can point out things that as adults we've becomed too jaded to see. Seeing the event through a child's eyes can be wonderful.
Kinetic V
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I bring order to chaos. And I bring chaos to those who deserve it, wherever that may be.

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gaminwench
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Post by gaminwench » Sun Sep 16, 2007 9:26 pm

During the Talk to God phonebooth's first year on the playa, our *best*/most frequent/most *enjoyed* guest God(dess) was a 7 year old girl, at BM with her mother, they'd been to BRC several times. She was one of the most amazing young people I've met - and I'm a teacher...the last Monday was her 8th birthday, so we gifted her the piano from our performance space - Mom saved it from the burn pan ritual so that Ruby could play at home, as she had every day on the playa...children and young people are amazing - it's the 'grown-ups' and 'society' that mess them up....Burning Man is all about amazing - bring on the kids!!!

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Das Bus
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Post by Das Bus » Sun Sep 16, 2007 10:51 pm

ecomain wrote:


To the second. I didn't do drugs at Burning Man this year. And you've certainly been having sex, otherwise you wouldn't have kids to bring. Sounds hypocritical.
So what if I've had sex???? WTF????? I went one year without my family, and I'll never do that again. My experience is so much more broadened when I'm with my family, that it's not worth it to go without them.

I don't bring my kids because I HAVE to, I bring them because I WANT to. There's a big difference.
Medicated and Motivated!

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MikeVDS
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Post by MikeVDS » Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:15 am

Burning Man is for adults primarily.
According to you? I didn't know this was your event. Any other new rules you wish to impose?

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The CO
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Post by The CO » Mon Sep 17, 2007 3:05 pm

We had a 10 month old in camp this year, and she was one of the most popular people there. She had a blast, loved the dust storms, and acclimated quicker than her parents.

My kids have grown up in festival envionments since they were 8 (now in 8th & 9th grade), and they are better for it. They have not been scarred, delinquentized or otherwise negatively affected. Quite the contrary, they have learned about the wonderful diversity of cultures in this world, and that you don't need a tv or game box to have fun. They had the opportunity to gift a young african girl her first taste of chocolate cheesecake, and watching their faces light up when they tell that story is priceless.

Ecomain, I'm sorry you don't seem to like kids in BRC, but they have just as much right to have fun as you do. Maybe even more.
M*A*S*H 4207th: An army of fun.
I don't care what the borg says: feather-wearers will NOT be served in Rosie's Bar.
When I ask how many burns, I mean at BRC.

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theCryptofishist
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Post by theCryptofishist » Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:14 pm

For what it's worth, if you believe that BM is a social movement and not just a rougher tougher Club Med, then you have to allow children. Otherwise it will peter out like the Shakers.
The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.
Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

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MikeVDS
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Post by MikeVDS » Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:44 pm

Regardless of what anyone thinks, unless it's their kids or their party it's none of their business. If you're uncomfortable around kids, maybe it's not the kids who need the growing up.

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supersonin
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Post by supersonin » Tue Sep 18, 2007 8:37 am

Hi All,

Maybe there is a better place to post this but since my husband and I are considering bringing our kids next year, I guess it is good to hear as many burner opinions as possible.
My husband and I went this year for the first time. We spent 11 days working and camping with the temple crew. We didn't party very much (we were exhausted from working) and we went to bed fairly early. We braved the dust storms with very little complaining....The conclusion I came to was that I think it is a fine place to bring kids as long as you are willing to make them your #1 priority, which I think most parents are used to doing anyway.
I would plan it well out in advance, probably camping in kidsville. Even though there was nothing inappropriate happening in the temple crew camp, I wouldn't want to make our camp mates feel like they had to change the way they "burn" and I think when there are kids around people naturally feel more inhibited.
We are not sure yet, we have a while to think about it....
My son will be 18 by then, I am not so worried about him but the girls will be 7 and 11....I would love to find out more about kidsville....
I will have to check it out.

Sonin

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dr.placebo
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Post by dr.placebo » Tue Sep 18, 2007 11:08 am

I was part of a small group at Kidsville one year (with a 2 year old). My impression was that it was a great place for kids because they got to mingle with other kids, the environment was safe, and there was a good level of mutual support (while still requiring self-reliance). And you are right, the kids have to be priority #1.

Burning Man would lose a lot of its heart if kids could not be there.

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Post by Toolmaker » Tue Sep 18, 2007 1:27 pm

Saw a few well rounded kids there this year. It was nice to see kids about various parts of the city.
This account has been closed as demanded by Wedeliver.

honeyfire
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What a bunch of whiners, geez louise...

Post by honeyfire » Wed Sep 19, 2007 5:08 pm

Sonin, you sound like the kind of parent who gives the lie to folks like

ecomain, who sayed:
"The only conclusion I can come to is the parents themselves are so damaged they don't realize what they are doing to their children"

ecomain, that you saw one set of parents who aren't sufficiently in the fire to have raised their kids to be cool in the fire doesn't mean that everyone is like that.
This kind of sweeping generalisation about almost anything pisses me off because they're almost always stupid.
There are many parents who have raised their kids to comfortable and appropriate in this kind of setting.
That some liveMOOP parents bring liveMOOP kids doesn't make the kids any more of an issue than the parents already are.

As far as i can tell, every objection that people are offering all boil down to two statements:

"I don't think kids should be exposed to the kind of stuff i see/do at BM."

Not your kids = not your decision.

"I don't want kids impinging on my BM experience."

What, and bike thieves, drunken yahoos, mooching nitwits, and a variety of others who aren't in the fire DON'T impinge on your BM experience?
*eyebrow*
If there's a kid watching you do something you don't want them to see, you can
a) ask them to look somewhere else
or better yet
b) engage in adult activities in adult areas.

Maybe other adults don't want to watch your drugs or sex either, are you worried about that?
If you want to do something you don't want someone seeing, do it in private. The playa is a public place just like any other place owned by we the people. Deal with it.

It really does mainly come down to:

Not your kids = not your problem.
I'm just trying not to be liveMOOP...

Civil rights: use 'em or lose 'em!

topsyscurvy
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Eeek

Post by topsyscurvy » Mon Sep 24, 2007 11:25 am

Wow. It's good to see you have still have those excellent parenting instincts, Sonin.

I think when borderline suburban housewives like yourself get the notion in their minds to start heading to BM for enlightenment and change, is when BM should be discontinued. I like the David 'hero worship' display as well--that's just peachy and oh, so sincere I'm sure. You seem to be his biggest cheerleader...maybe you should be his PR person.

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ALICEtheGOON
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Post by ALICEtheGOON » Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:53 pm

Wish I had the time to link the Utube video of the 2 children chasing after the parachutists. (hope someone will)
Cutest thing ever.

less yahoos more kids.

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Lust
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Post by Lust » Mon Sep 24, 2007 10:20 pm

The kind of parenting that I first hand experienced on the playa makes me sick! I don't think that children should be allowed at BM, at all, no exceptions. The 2% of responsible parents shouldn't mean that we should let the rest of the bad parents infringe on our experience. When I shell out over 3grand to go to BM from Texas, the last thing I want to deal with, or see, or worry about is someone else's kid.
We had a 10year old boy from the the theme camp across from our theme camp come over and tell us to stop using our bullhorn, because it was messing up his dad's trip. This happened twice. The second time, one of our camp mates actually grabbed the bull horn and faced towards his camp and made as much noise as possible. What fucking universe is it ok to drop acid in front of your kid and then make him responsible for your experience.
I saw some damn hippy actually let her infant crawl on the playa. Wow, that was great form of parenting. The babies undeveloped lungs are inhaling the dust straight from the playa floor, the same dust that adults wear masks to protect themselves from. Not to mention what it does to our skin!
Or how about the 'dad' that was hung over and cranky that was walking back from the port a potties with his 8 year old daughter who was her bike. She kept asking if they could go to a certain camp to play, after the 3rd time of her asking, he finally yelled at her to go by herself and he would show up later. Let's see, we would all like to think that everyone at BM are nice people, but really, statistically, how many pediphiles do you think are at BM? Enough that a responsible parent would never let there kid out fucking sight!!!!!
How about the fam of 3 adults and 5 kids that were letting a boy of about 5 wander far enough ahead of them that he could have easily gotten lost in the crowd, not to mention that he was ahead barely lit on the night of the burn. Adults 'partying' aren't looking down to see if there is a kid under foot.
Oh, and then there is Pizza Smut getting closed down because a child might wander in and see smut. Um, were the fuck are the parents? Why the fuck would a parent let a child wonder around BM alone?
So, sorry BM is an adult party, that we spend shit loads of money on to go to. If you want to take your kid to something, take them to a regional. Where the environment is less harsh, situations are more controllable, and you actually know most of the people.

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ALICEtheGOON
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Post by ALICEtheGOON » Tue Sep 25, 2007 1:21 am

LUST,
I dont think the parenting at BRC is any worse than at your dallas Walmart. With 40000 plus people at BM, its seems in your post that someone is going to infringe on YOUR burn. "That damn hippy" as you called them, whos child crawled on the playa floor, was in less danger than in a carseat choking on Dallas pollution. If your story about the 10 year old boy is true, that is discusting. Kids or no kids that is a bad person.
Pediphiles are the scum of the earth ,but do you really believe there are more at BRC than in Dallas ,Texas??? Of course parents should watch thier kids ...but we really cant do much about how people choose to raise them. I dont know if you read Zulegoona's post , but children have been a part of the BM experience way before either one of us heard about BM.
There are plenty of "adult only" parties out there.
save your 3grand and go.
ALICE

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MikeVDS
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Post by MikeVDS » Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:29 pm

I first hand experienced on the playa makes me sick! I don't think that ADULTS should be allowed at BM, at all, no exceptions. The 2% of responsible ADULTS shouldn't mean that we should let the rest of the bad ADULTS infringe on our experience.

:roll:

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The CO
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Post by The CO » Wed Oct 03, 2007 10:49 am

I agree MikeV. No more grown ups at Burning Man!
M*A*S*H 4207th: An army of fun.
I don't care what the borg says: feather-wearers will NOT be served in Rosie's Bar.
When I ask how many burns, I mean at BRC.

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Post by Toolmaker » Wed Oct 03, 2007 2:22 pm

Ya.. these grownups are getting out of control.

No blowin shit up
No pissin in the streets
No suspension in the Thunderdome
No masturbating like a zoo monkey
No donkeys allowed

What next? No whippets?

We gotta put a leash on the adults before they start thinkin that BM is some sort of rave.

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Kinetik V
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Post by Kinetik V » Wed Oct 03, 2007 4:37 pm

Toolmaker wrote:
What next? No whippets?
WTF? Shut up! Don't be the one that gives them another addition to the banned items list. Shhhh!
Kinetic V
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I bring order to chaos. And I bring chaos to those who deserve it, wherever that may be.

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MikeVDS
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Post by MikeVDS » Wed Oct 03, 2007 8:55 pm

No blowin shit up
No pissin in the streets
No suspension in the Thunderdome
No masturbating like a zoo monkey
No donkeys allowed
Growin-ups ain't doin dose tings. *ponders* Nope... nope dey ain't. Dat's why their bann-ed.
[img]http://tikifuckos.org/anisign.gif[/img]

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