Just how wild west were the BM 90s?

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:13 pm

and how many old burners are still around? and how many are crying about the changes in BM?

how many changes were forced for safty or by the laws and blm requirements?

just how many voices are heard just to hear them selfs talk?

i think most the talk is bullshit..
some one pays good money to go to burning man year after year just so they grip about it???

MikeVDS · Post by **MikeVDS** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:38 pm

i think most the talk is bullshit..

As someone who wasn't there I can't verify anything, but I don't think it was B.S. depending on what "talk" you're thinking about. If you go to certain other smaller events by burners you'll realize how restrictive burningman can be. Fireworks, explosives, lots of gasoline, flaming rolls of toilet paper soaked in gasoline, model rocket engines, drugs and sex in "public", guns, no need to worry about grey water, no worry about neighbors borders, no "tourists". It's obviously a different event.

I don't understand why some people wish they were there when it started. If you want that, grab 20 to 40 friends and do it your way.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:08 pm

MikeVDS wrote:
i think most the talk is bullshit..
As someone who wasn't there I can't verify anything, but I don't think it was B.S. depending on what "talk" you're thinking about. If you go to certain other smaller events by burners you'll realize how restrictive burningman can be. Fireworks, explosives, lots of gasoline, flaming rolls of toilet paper soaked in gasoline, model rocket engines, drugs and sex in "public", guns, no need to worry about grey water, no worry about neighbors borders, no "tourists". It's obviously a different event.

I don't understand why some people wish they were there when it started. If you want that, grab 20 to 40 friends and do it your way.

\/
so, why would some one want lawless dangerous and violance at a art festival as burning man is billed..

some are trying to make it there way by force.. running over art on the playa burning the man on Tues. stealing peopes artcars and bikes or blasting distorted music at 5&6 in the morning..

the big change in burning man is, it has attracted a large group of real anti social asshole..

MikeVDS · Post by **MikeVDS** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:25 pm

Anti-social assholes and outside authorities. I'm not convinced it attracts anti-social assholes in particular, I just think as humans, we're cursed with some.

As far as lawless and violence, are you talking about the things I listed? I think those are all in good fun as long as they are used responsibly as to not endanger unknowing "participants". That's one of the great thing about going out to dry lake beds, there isn't much you can harm except yourselves. Burningman has outgrown those days because you could not do those things without putting unwilling people at risk, but you can still do them at your own, smaller events.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:37 pm

MikeVDS wrote:Anti-social assholes and outside authorities. I'm not convinced it attracts anti-social assholes in particular, I just think as humans, we're cursed with some.

i mean it has attracted some becuse no one can define burning man and it s location..

As far as lawless and violence, are you talking about the things I listed?

no, that was refferance to my list(last post)

diane o'thirst · Post by **diane o'thirst** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:45 pm

Does Class of '98 count?

I know one thing's for sure...last year was worlds away from the experience I had in my freshman year of '98, multiple Playa-flake pranks aside.

We stopped doing the Opera, more or less, in 2002. Temple of Rudra and Le Mystere de Papa Loko were done sans burn blankets. Y2K pretty much changed everything and the Thar-Taurs of Atlan was our last great, Grand Ritual Opera. Ark of the Nereids was fun, but there were a lot less Sects. TToA had four Sects, AotN had two that were essentially rehashes of the two most popular Sects from TToA.

Le Mystere de Papa Loko had some danger. When we invited the crowd to jump through the flaming gate of the Temple, it got seriously crazy. Those who were there for '99 know how cold it was that year and the audience was bundled up like Christmas in Michigan. We performers at least had some safety measures built in:

1) The fire was just lit, the flames were low, and easy to jump.

2) The drummer gave us a steady rhythm to follow and guide our steps.

3) We were naked.

4) The Opera choreographer gave us a fair jump-off distance.

Contrast: the crowd jumping through the gate:

1) They were all dressed to the teeth in heavy clothing.

2) They pressed right up to the point and anyone jumping through had to do it from a stand. We at least had enough room to do a running jump.

3) The flames were higher.

I directly attribute the absence of casualties in that instance to the protection of the Lwas. You can think of it as pure dumb luck if ye will.

Shortly after this year's events, I said "We're not safe anymore." Over the past few weeks I've re-thought my position. We were never safe, it's a gamble out there. You can minimize your odds of getting hurt or killed, by never accepting a drink from a stranger, watching the art cars and keeping a respectful distance, using your rumble-gumption (thanks, My Word), making sure your shelter is secured down and strong/flexible enough to survive the climactic conditions, but the fact is with a city of 47,000 you're going to have individuals with bad attitudes and the means to pull off malignancy.

We were never safe. But most of the time, we were secure. I'm wondering if that's gone by the wayside now?

SilentNinja · Post by **SilentNinja** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:14 pm

I concur with diane- the event has changed a lot. Inn many ways, comparing 2007 to 1996 is hard to do- the chaotic feel is still there, but many of the things that seemed so awesome in 96 have been reduced...

Like back then, people with cameras were verbally assaulted out in public- in 07 It seemed like people were walking around specifically to take snap snapshots like "whoa this is me at a party!".
I also don't recall the hundreds of "Bars"- that culture (seemed to) sort of develop separately thru the 90's.
The felling of "anti-corporate" and "anti-logo" (seemed to be) very strong back then.
Last year I was amazed at how many people had made commemorative items with the BM logo: t-shirts, lighters, femo necklaces.. it seemed a little ridiculous to me. What's next, flyers?.

On the other hand, some things that have changed are better hands down- everyone their driving cars all over in 96 was a (fatal) recipe for disaster. I seem to remember people with guns and bottles of liquor and what not- probably not the best combo.

It's changed alot over the years for sure, but I still had a blast last year, my 7th time out. -SN

Toolmaker · Post by **Toolmaker** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:39 pm

MikeVDS wrote: If you go to certain other smaller events by burners you'll realize how restrictive burningman can be. Fireworks, explosives, lots of gasoline, flaming rolls of toilet paper soaked in gasoline, model rocket engines, drugs and sex in "public", guns, no need to worry about grey water, no worry about neighbors borders, no "tourists".

Sounds like my kind of party.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:43 pm

I think it started as a beach bonfire, where you knew who built the Man, who brought the hash brownies, and knew better not to invite arsonists.

Iago · Post by **Iago** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:46 pm

Hey. diane o'thirst

The one thing that really sticks out about '98 was the performance art, interactively and possibly the best year ever....period!

Let me count the ways:

Mud people in the mud pit with a horizontal 50 ft bungee cord.
Center Camp Cafe was evil looking and like something out of Road Warrior.
Ball Room Dancing in the rain and they all wore Tuxes and Gowns.
Ton Jones Panty Exchange Bar.
Spiral Oasis, loved you folks.
Biancas.
The Wizard of OZ musical perfomance (?)
The Man burned on Hay Bales.
Hay Bales, fuck the moop, word wasn't invented yet...
Irrational Geographic Society.
Outside stage on hay bales and Best Fashion Show ever...
Typewriter on a box way out out the Playa you typed messages on.
One Tree.
Drano.
Every Camp was open and faced the street, like it was all a real neighborhood everywhere.
30' land yacht that crashed into Pepe's Opera, you could still drive drunk then...(sorta of ?)
Rudra.
Bone tree.
TAZ
Nebulous Entity.
Alien Abductions everywhere.
Confessional Booths.
Electric light parade.
Getting hugged by wet mud people, again...
Real Aliens from outerspace...
Flying Saucers
Nobody really showed up until Wednesday, 'cause you could see most of it in the next 3 days.
Most of all, Everybody actually participated whether they were a virgin or a veteran........................................!

Yep, it was the best year ever.. in my opinion...

Did I mention that there were real flying saucers, the aliens weren't as afraid of us back then..... do you remember them???

diane o'thirst · Post by **diane o'thirst** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:48 pm

I don't like the plethora of bars. My feeling is that I don't want to haul 1500 pounds of gear, water and food 500 miles just to go on a bar crawl. I can do that back home.

It seems like every other camp is Just Another Barâ„¢ and/or deejay booth. In 2000, we developed a whole divination system and language for our project and did readings for people, held nightly rituals, as well as built Pepe's Lingam Tower and Yoni Gate, and a three-story pyramid, and write the music for an hour-long Opera...

The same year, I was excited when Mom told me someone in my old hometown was building the Emerald City of Oz in plexi. I thought they were going to do a Wizard of Oz theme camp. Turned out to be Just Another Goddamn Raveâ„¢. Maybe I'm spoiled, but I miss the Playa Zendo and the guys with the Choo-Choo Train who served up fish tacos every day...

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:54 pm

I'm not convinced it attracts anti-social assholes in particular, I just think as humans, we're cursed with some.

most of this will be conjecture because its not like anyone will ever go around and randomly apply dsm-4 tests to people at the event to test its validity. but i had this discussion both online and at the event. from that i think there are a few good points that support the belief of a higher than average number of people at the event who are antisocial than you would find in a general population sampling. online is different so i will mention that last.

- burningman is an incredibly open environment, intentionally so.
- experimentation is encouraged
- there are a huge number of people on narcotics
- has a strong community sense of acceptance with 'radical inclusion'
- alternative behaviour is encouraged with 'radical expression'

so its an environment that is so different from the norm that you cant really get a good guage on its effect, people who are baseline compared to the general population will appear all over whatever scales you try to apply.

but here is why i think its higher - antisocial people find their personal issues are accepted because of this - in the default world their behaviour is shunned or supressed. burningman becomes an enlightening experience for them, a place they finally feel at home and free from those social constraints. in a strange way i have seen a lot of people have personal breakthroughs and i think that therapeutic effect is there, maybe some people who suffer from antisocial problems benefit from this?

online and burningman combined is different. online there is a distinct absence of certain communications that are not available like voice inflectiuon, facial expressions, body movement, and sarcasm. combined with the anonymity of discussions and people often say things to one another they certainly wouldnt to anothers face. but why do i think online burningman is different from other online communities? experience.

i could write a book on the incredibly antisocial things i have seen and experienced from being a moderator here. i am not going to dig up personal cases or dead horses, so you just have to take my word for it or contact me privately with the understanding that i will not name people and expect it to stay private. but its true, and in the past year i have yet to find another board moderator or sysadmin i have talked to that can share stories with the level of severity.

BAS · Post by **BAS** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:55 pm

Did I mention that there were real flying saucers, the aliens weren't as afraid of us back then..... do you remember them???

Yes, even though I was not there.

B.

diane o'thirst · Post by **diane o'thirst** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:58 pm

Hey, Iago!

'98 was also the first year EL wire came on the scene, with the Horse Bike.

Remember the big storm Friday afternoon? Then the sun came out, and I joined a ragtag procession of people celebrating that fact, that appeared out of nowhere and everywhere.

The Man's hay bales had a green Celtic knotwork painted on them. We could sit at the Man's feet and gaze back at the City. I still have a picture of the firemens' memorial plaque and the flag on his left leg.

The Man was FINE then. He was ours, he belonged to everyone. He really was a talisman of our city. The Burn meant something. Now it's been reduced to just a spectacle.

TheJudge · Post by **TheJudge** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:02 pm

I've said this before, but it bares repeating:

Long gone are the days of Helco, the drive-by shooting range and Bianca's Smut Shack.

Instead, we now have the American Dream.

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Tue Sep 18, 2007 10:23 am

Just got back from the 1996 burn (he-he).

It's natural to have a different feel when a.) the event attracts more people and 2.) it's been going on longer and has time to develop.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Tue Sep 18, 2007 11:27 am

I have been going to burning man since 2001.. can t explane what i do there.. can t explane why i want return each year.. that is all with in me..

i could give a rip what people or BMorg change from year to year.. i guess it would be boreing to stay the same..

the only real change i see is, where the hell did all those people come from? also some of us are getting older/smarter and bring RV s to live in..

i expect the man to be there.. so i can slip out while you all are at the burn..

i expect center camp to keep a lot of you off the streets and out of my way..

i m greatful to the people that help build, maintain, aid and protect burning man..

some times think about aleve for the pain in my face from smileing..

living the dream man living the dream

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Tue Sep 18, 2007 12:27 pm

In 95 Burningman was "the rainbow festival for bad people". The desert has always been a place to go to get away with shit.

Toolmaker · Post by **Toolmaker** » Tue Sep 18, 2007 1:18 pm

http://images.burningman.com/index.cgi?image=10112

http://www.burningman.com/art_of_burnin ... llery.html

http://images.burningman.com/index.cgi?image=2236

http://images.burningman.com/index.cgi?image=5389

http://www.flickr.com/photos/lardnanny/ ... 350799404/

Iago · Post by **Iago** » Tue Sep 18, 2007 5:26 pm

Hey, diane o'thirst

As Bob Hope would say, 'Thanks for the memories'

Boy, that EL wire horse bike was somethin' else, wasn't it way back then..?

Burning Man is doing just fine with the load it is carrying these days, actually better than I would have ever expected considering the attention they get now. I wish only the best for them no matter what the theme is. Kids these days need it more than ever..! Don't forget there is a virgin born everyday and we need to pass the torch on to them...

[oh shit, I have been drinking again, please disregard this post...]

Ciao Amigos and thanks D o'T for the kind reply

Steven bradford · Post by **Steven bradford** » Tue Sep 18, 2007 10:28 pm

No way, Iago, you're exactly right.

Every damn year the whiners come out. I've noticed the biggest whiners are often the people who've gone for about three or four years max.

My first year was 97, when rules first started being enforced. And people then were moaning how it wasn't the same. Fuck that. But I've noticed the people who've been going a long time don't waste a lot of breath wailing about how much better it was. Reminiscing yes. We have one individual in our group who was at the first playa burn and he never talks about how much better it was last or last decade.

Remember how much fawking trash there was after the burns in 97? not just a cigarette butt and glow stick here and there, but beer bottles and cans etc etc. Crap everywhere. And the last couple of years I've noticed that we've all become much better about not leaving pea stains everywhere.

Sometimes, at some point each year I suddenly bring myself up short and look around and marvel at what I see around me. An event with tens of thousands of people present with no real orgisation, yet an incredible amount of stuff going on. No sponsorships, no one hawking and selling crap, no litter everywhere, yet no garbage collection. Many many many people there for the first time, yet most all of them are already to go and on board with not mooping and not selling, but creating and gifting and performing.

It just rawks.

Dustdevil · Post by **Dustdevil** » Wed Sep 19, 2007 8:56 am

In 96' I can remember burning VW bug engine cases (on the Playa) AND throwing water on them. It was spectacular. I have no problem with the current rules and regs. Until 1968 cherry bombs and M-80's were sold over the counter. As things change so must the laws. It seems a larger population always dictates the need for more regulation.

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Wed Sep 19, 2007 10:18 am

I remember during the 96 burn, I was walking on the playa at night. I heard someone speaking on a loudspeaker, looked over and they look like they're burning magnesium by the look of it. Way to burn everyone's retinas, clown.

But then again, that was 1996, not 1896, which I understand was even wilder.

diane o'thirst · Post by **diane o'thirst** » Wed Sep 19, 2007 10:46 am

What be really ironic is that this arson of the Man, to protest restrictions, will be causin' even more restrictions, methinks.

And the ship's cat agrees.

stew · Post by **stew** » Wed Sep 19, 2007 12:23 pm

[quote="Ugly Dougly"]But then again, that was 1996, not 1896, which I understand was even wilder.[/quote]
Pah! You should have been there in 1615 for the Burning Witch festival in Europe. Those were the days! Nowadays, there are all those stupid regulations that don't allow burning people...

DoctorIknow · Post by **DoctorIknow** » Wed Sep 19, 2007 7:38 pm

1998 was my first year, and a few years later I noticed that my perception was that a bigger percentage of people seemed to be using the streets as only a path to get them to their destination, as opposed to actually just looking around and being aware of the surroundings and what they might find there. The last few years, I almost feel like I'm at a Young Republicans convention some of the time, and believing I'm seeing more goal oriented attributes instead of process oriented tells is one reason I think that...

BTW, I believe '98 was the last year BM set up a stage (not including the later stages in CenterCamp) and the fashion show mentioned above, was caught on tape.... you can really feel that it was only a relatively small number of people in the audience,,,,these days, CenterCamp audiences are larger in number.

The '98 fashion show:
http://tinyurl.com/2szo7f

Toolmaker · Post by **Toolmaker** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 2:12 am

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Steven bradford · Post by **Steven bradford** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:07 pm

The AWD show in 98 on the main stage was great. They also performed at a decomp in SF that I drove down from Seattle to see.

BigCock · Post by **BigCock** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 9:01 pm

The Burn meant something. Now it's been reduced to just a spectacle.

Oh my goodness. What a fish story.

Sure there was great dancing around the lingam, creative original ritual, a new language, beautiful bodies, but hey, IT WAS JUST A BIG DICK WITH A VAGINA ON THE BOTTOM! Talk about a spectacle, and a pretty simple one at that.

There sure wasn't any temple back in the day, nothing with near the spiritual power and impact on the event, nothing that compelled people to participate with all their heart. And the first one wasn't until '01 (the '00 piece wasn't a temple).

Hey, you first timers, here is the truth. It was the same then as it is now: what you make of it.

BigCock · Post by **BigCock** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 9:19 pm

Steven bradford wrote:Remember how much fawking trash there was after the burns in 97? not just a cigarette butt and glow stick here and there, but beer bottles and cans etc etc. Crap everywhere.

I volunteered after '98 to help the DPW clean up. It was late in the fall and we pretty much finished, so a bunch of us went out to where the '95 burn had been. It was pretty easy to find: burn scars with nails and screws sticking up out of them, held rigid by the dry mud. Scary.

The playa was so damned big back then it seemed stupid to worry about nails, screws or trash. It's gotten a lot smaller.

Just how wild west were the BM 90s?

Just how wild west were the BM 90s?

Class of 96

98