Will/has Paul torn us apart?

[Valkyrie]

So what you're suggesting is that merely talking about someone tearing us apart is enough to tear us apart. The argument sounds kind of circular. I love how "the sky is falling" is such a perpetual cry around here. Burning Man would never have become what it is if it were subject to the vagaries of individual events or isolateable circumstances. Sure, the event will change, but everything anyone has ever done will change it as well. But it will always survive as long as people Believe.




Oh, and because I'm such a nit-picker for logic:

Jordan 10-E's been on the board longer and a review of his posts shows quality reigns over quantity. There's nothing there that supports the troll accusation and while I doubt you'll do so SB, I feel that you overstepped again and owe him an apology.

Well, the statistics quoted suggest that there is some inherent good in what one party has done because he doesn't post as much as the other party. However, the explanation offered for the discrepancy in posts, etc. can be explained by a variety of different theories, the proffered one being only one interpretation. Another could be that SB cares more about the community, thus posts more frequently, while Jordan is only posting when he wants to impart his superior wisdom on our needy minds and thus listens and hears far less of what transpires on this forum. I'm not saying this is by any stretch true, but it's as plausible interpretation of the facts as that supporting the demand for apology.

I would like to use this to illustrate further that it's a value judgment to say that one poster is "a better poster and more deserving of respect" than the other. It leads to the "some are more equal than others" mentality.

[spectabillis]

oh stop being so melodramatic k. britney called, she wants her estranged-diva status back.

[Kinetik V]

SB, step right up and place your bids. It's "the arsonist" fundraising eBay auction. Someone posted this on the 3Playa...at first I thought it was a joke but the description of the items up for auction quickly changed that.

http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZcharybdis23

Here's the description for those unable to check the link, this is from the description under the "kit" link:

Paul Addis is facing Felony charges for allegedly burning The Man early.

All proceeds from this auction will go towards Paul Addis's plane ticket from Seattle to Reno for his court appearance on September 25th.

I am offering these items for auction with Paul's consent. I will answer questions about the items. I will NOT answer any questions about Paul's actions on the Playa. Read Paul's interview if you want more info... http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... LRTBBN.DTL

He is facing Felony charges in Nevada for Arson. He is accused of burning The Man at Burning Man early. The Man was ignited during the dark of the Lunar Eclipse early Tuesday morning, 3:37AM to be exact.

I am not making any statements regarding Paul's Guilt or Innocence. I am just raising money. If there is more, it will go to paying back the OTHER two bail sums that have stacked up in the past week.

What ?? Two more arrests?

Actually, Paul has been arrested 3 times in the past four days. The charge of the first of these was "Terrorist Threat." The date was September 11th.

Two hours after he returned to his apartment, the police showed up and arrested him again.

Saturday September 14th, while on his motorcycle a block away from his apartment, he was taken into custody *again* ... no charges were brought, but he was questioned by a Psychiatrist before he was released.

When he finally made it home the following evening, it was to the horror of finding that his apartment has been ransacked, under a search warrant, by the police. Items like framed photographs showing Paul performing had been removed. The place was tossed.

Is Paul being harassed?

I don't know if these 3 incarcerations have anything to do with the Arson charge in Nevada. I do know that bail money from friends is totallling almost $6000. and time lost from auditions, and work related to his livelihood, have cost Paul more than financial deficits.

I also know that Paul is a patriotic American. He is not a Terrorist. Being unique, artistic, dramatic, eloquent and outspoken should be celebrated, not persecuted.

Paul Addis is a brilliant playwright, and a seasoned performance artist. He is currently touring "Gonzo: A Brutal Chrysalis" in Seattle through October 12th, to be followed by a run in Los Angeles.

Tour information can be found here:
http://www.gonzoduke.com/shows.html

---- ITEMS INCLUDED (The Paul Addis Super Stockpile):

Paul's gas can. Covered in unmistakable playa dust, and sporting a sexy Squidlist sticker, this gas can will be emptied before shipped.

An unopened box of Ivory Snow. Napalm is so clean, really. No extra charge for playa dust.

A small piece of the burned man... signed.

A small piece of the Man - rebuilt with heroic effort and erected once again on Thursday morning.

Paul's Black Rock city "Green Man" map.

The infamous mugshot... one of the shots actually distributed on the Playa in an effort to prevent Paul from returning after he was released on Tuesday... signed.

The receipt for Paul's Bail.

Burning Man'a official posting regarding the alleged arson.

The jail I.D. from the September 11th arrest.

The jail I.D. from the September 12th arrest.

A personal effects envelope ... sporting the hair-raising date of infamy.

A smaller envelope for cash.

Paul's San Francisco Prisoner Orientation ManuaL ... signed.

A Gonzo poster, signed by the artist.

[Jordan 10-E]

Kinetic V... I really appreciate the sentiment, but I don't need an apology from him. I know I am not trolling so I am not too worried about it. If anyone is trolling it is some others. People can see me how they want. I'll let my words speak for me. I know that I am in a better position than those that are saying it is ok to destroy other people's property because they want to make a point.

There is one thing however that I was thinking about last night. I am not taking back my points or issues in any way. Let's make that clear. However I think at times in my various posts I have been a little too agro and have used some language that was not very "professional" so to speak. I am going to tone that down a little, just a little, but I won't lie some people's comments on this issue really baffle me and I can't help but think they need a response. However, my arguments still stand and I will still make points as I see them, sometimes in a forcefully blunt manner. Unfortunately you sometimes have to meet others on their level in order to even have a chance of getting through. Plus, if others want to stoop to low levels then they shouldn't be all that surprised when their statements are challenged on a similar level. If people can dish it out without consideration then they should be able to take whatever they brought upon themselves.

Now back to the issues at hand...

[skygod]

I like to watch people argue. Does that make me a bad person?
Don't stop on my account.

[unjonharley]

so when some one go s to buy/sell this shit, he get a couple of guys with gun.. then breaks in on the sale and takes the stuff back.. claiming he was set up by the police or others reffered to as they..

[Teo del Fuego]

I doubt Pa*l could tear anyone apart. Looking at his mug shot, it appears he stands at 5'-3."

I heard for an encore he's gonna snuf out the Olympic torch early

[Lassen Forge]

People have only the power over you you grant them. So if you grant Mr. Addis that power, then, sure, he can and will.

Otherwise he won't.

Personally, I think it will take more than that, or to tear us apart. I think WE will tear this community apart. Doubt it? Look in a mirror. Look at the previous page and the thread hijack there.

Am I wrong?

Blame Paul Addis my ASS.

Another wonderful thing about humanity. The whole have a scapegat to absolve us of our own fuck-ups and shortcomings by blaming someone else gig. Yeah.

Yeah, he was a fuck for burning the man. He was also a hero. Whatever he is, or was, or will be, doesn't make him the reason others do what they want, or become more offensive to one another, or think that they have to have the testosterone cockfight because they have to prove their dick is bigger by sniping at each other.

Personally, and I am no rainbow-ist, I think the whole Bullshit goes way beyond and way deeper than the Tuesday Morning Trans-Lunar-Eclipse burn, and it gets fucking OLD to hear these same few guys posing like... posers. What bullshit.

Blame Paul? Fuck. Look in the mother fucking mirror. Not you, Fishie, but those who grab a thread and skew it to play... what do they call it... pee-pee fights. There. Yeah.

Tear our community apart. C'mon, keep rippin', instead of being adults and cooperating. Paul has nothing on some here. I bet Paul is laughing at YOU for doing HIS work. Yeah. Fuck Paul, he can sit back and watch YOU destroy the community for him.

Nice job, boys.

Cya...

[Valkyrie]

Actually, the old functional model of a scapegoat was to put all your sins and shortcomings on them, then burn the goat, allowing you to move beyond what you once were to become something better.

'course what I've seen here is a lot of folks who won't move beyond what they once were. Then again, it requires a unified vision of something better. Otherwise it's just an act of self-denial.

[spectabillis]

'course what I've seen here is a lot of folks who won't move beyond what they once were. Then again, it requires a unified vision of something better. Otherwise it's just an act of self-denial.

i have read different variations of the change argument but rarely do people acknowledge that change doesnt imply its good. due to population growth and turnover many of the original things that were of influence and value have dissolved into benign forms of entertainment. a party, a camping trip to have fun, or a place to feel superficial empowerment just from buying a ticket. paul addis was not the first person to apply the disneyland reference to burningman.

i still have hope there is some core influence around. something that makes people think despite those thoughts being bad or good, or if you agree with them or not. it was challenging on many levels. but that hope is fading when people only react out of hate and resentment to things like...

i think a relevant theme art installation would be paul addis flying into the twin towers.

.. which has more relevance than most are aware of because he is also charged with a terrorist related crime.

sue is right, its going to be its own people that destroy this and not someone like paul addis - but i wonder if people would ever find the post 9-11 criticism "the terrorists have won" anything more than saying thats just anti-burningman. or not see the relevance that reactions to fear for others safety can be taken too far.

nope, no relevance there, "just ignore it and drop some e brutha man, its all gooooood!"

[Valkyrie]

due to population growth and turnover many of the original things that were of influence and value have dissolved into benign forms of entertainment. a party, a camping trip to have fun, or a place to feel superficial empowerment just from buying a ticket. paul addis was not the first person to apply the disneyland reference to burningman.

See, this is the part that I don't get: the "disneyfication" reference that so many people keep making. This has a couple of implications that I really don't think I agree with.

First, it implies that more people = more people who are there only as spectators. While certainly, you get spectators and the like involved whenever you get 'people' involved, I met some decidedly spectatorish folks (who compared the event to Woodstock a lot) who had been going for many years. I didn't happen to meet anyone who was new who was there just to watch, although I know they were there. (I personally ditched one guy from our carpool because he didn't seem to understand it was not just a big party.) So I would assert that the ratios probably aren't changing too much in terms of spectator attendance.

I've heard references to "selling out" but I have to ask the question: Who the hell would want to buy this thing? The only reason you could want it would be for advertising purposes (mailing lists, product placements, etc.) but that's so antithetical to what the event is about, that you'd kill it in the purchase. Do you think Disney would want to have their name associated with all that nudity?

People make reference to popular media's attention on the event. I don't suppose that people can recognize that this thing has, in addition to being an event, become a movement, with enough like-minded people behind it to make it formidable enough to report on? So much conventional wisdom is outright broken by what goes on in the desert every year that it's actually newsworthy? Maybe, just maybe, it's not burning man that's becoming more mainstream... but mainstream that's becoming more burning man. Is that really such a bad thing?

[spectabillis]

the disney reference has more to do with passive spectator based entertainment in a safe and socially correct package, not selling it to disney corp. and turning it into a theme park.

theme.. blm park.. maybe theme park is a bad reference?

selling out refers to having less focus on individual empowerment vs. org control and influence over what its about. not that all control is bad, but in general the hands-off approach is what most people enjoy yet are willing to support them through buying a ticket and volunteering free labor. that would greatly shift if things were actively advertised with the implication its a commodity. so on one hand you cant market burningman while holding basic principals intact with the other.

[honeyfire]

Am i the only one who found Ugly Dougly's remark:
"How many artists keep materials for rebuilding their art?"
fairly hilarious?
If you saw how many freakin' colored pencils are in my house, you wouldn't ask this, you'd just use 'em to build a multicpolored Man.

[skygod]

When people argue and fight you see how they really are.

[spectabillis]

not really, thats just one side of them, and a temporary one unless they live thier lives in a boxing ring.

[Teo del Fuego]

spectaB, if you are not a lawyer, you really should be. Im not necessarily slamming you with that observation

[spectabillis]

nah, aparantly i dont understand law.

besides, i dont have the ego worship of trying to make a name for myself in a high profile case, and wouldnt want the headache of terrorist laws with evidence excuses of national security.

used to date one though, hastings grad, father was a public defender in boca raton for high profile cases including dealers. i guess its a different career path when you have to leave the country occasionally 'on vacation' when your client looses.

[Tapestry]

"Paul" who?

Ha! That should be on a button.
I'm not gonna let one ignorant person ruin my Burning Man experience!

[Stryder]

Reap what you sow....


[quote]
Paul Addis is facing Felony charges for allegedly burning The Man early.

All proceeds from this auction will go towards Paul Addis's plane ticket from Seattle to Reno for his court appearance on September 25th.


He is facing Felony charges in Nevada for Arson.

I am just raising money. If there is more, it will go to paying back the OTHER two bail sums that have stacked up in the past week.

What ?? Two more arrests?

Actually, Paul has been arrested 3 times in the past four days. The charge of the first of these was "Terrorist Threat." The date was September 11th.

Two hours after he returned to his apartment, the police showed up and arrested him again.

Saturday September 14th, while on his motorcycle a block away from his apartment, he was taken into custody *again* ... no charges were brought, but he was questioned by a Psychiatrist before he was released.

When he finally made it home the following evening, it was to the horror of finding that his apartment has been ransacked, under a search warrant, by the police. Items like framed photographs showing Paul performing had been removed. The place was tossed.

[theCryptofishist]

Yeah, that's shown up around here before. It's hard to be too upset when the guy selling matchbook covers with his signature as "art." Imean, it makes my collection of fingernail clippings look positively genius. Too bad I didn't save any bone fragments...

[Stryder]

Sorry to drag this topic on, but whoever his friend is that is selling stuff on Ebay, also offered burned pieces of the man, both Mondays and Saturdays burn, signed by the arsonista. Fucking disgusting. It's so hypocritical how he gets to profit from pieces of the very 'man' he accuses of being a cash cow for others. I think that is just adding insult to injury. At least he won't actually get to enjoy that money, since it going to his legal defense.
I'm finding that I had no idea how much I really cared about BM until all this. I do care dammit! I love Burning Man. So sue me!
I'm a 'burner'! There, I said it.
I. Am. A. Burner!
And how I'm feeling, is that nobody has the right, regardless of their nostalgia for the old BM days, to take away the joy of the event. People ENJOY the burn. There is NOTHING wrong with that.
As has been said, but I'll say it again, if this person really wanted to make a POSITIVE impact, and make his statement, he could have rolled up his sleeves and gone to work on some project of his own and hauled it out there and burned it!
But no, he took a totally chicken shit approach, and went for the cheap shot. And it is by LUCK and not by design, that no one was injured.

Yeah, that's shown up around here before. It's hard to be too upset when the guy selling matchbook covers with his signature as "art." I mean, it makes my collection of fingernail clippings look positively genius. Too bad I didn't save any bone fragments...

[honeyfire]

*laughing*
Hell, my tribe was saying "Oh, Burning Man was in Time magazine, it's over now" back in 1992.

[mdmf007]

watch the "Current TV" coverage of the Man Burn, You can see that after it was pulled down, you can seel three or four guys grab his head - HIS HEAD!!! and run off with it.

[spectabillis]

And how I'm feeling, is that nobody has the right, regardless of their nostalgia for the old BM days, to take away the joy of the event. People ENJOY the burn. There is NOTHING wrong with that.

but what about the joy of the endless number of people who put their heart and soul into burningman, only to see what they loved about it go away?

these were not just anybody, but do'ers and creators who's actions help create the event that you enjoy. they lived by a philosophy that gave birth to the ten principals that you follow without them ever having to document it, it came naturally.

part of our motivation was not to create some dogmatic cult, in fact thats a big thing we wanted to free ourselves from and looking back thats proved to be a really big thing. freeing yourself from certain social constraints and beliefs empowers you with incredible motivation and freedom to create your own environment that EVERYBODY enjoys. much of that has slowly and steadily dissolved away.

i am not saying you have to agree or not with what happened, but i would hope its important to understand WHY these things happen before you pass judgement on EVERYTHING.

[gaminwench]

SB...I think I'm in love....you're so good!

[Stryder]

And how I'm feeling, is that nobody has the right, regardless of their nostalgia for the old BM days, to take away the joy of the event. People ENJOY the burn. There is NOTHING wrong with that.

but what about the joy of the endless number of people who put their heart and soul into burningman, only to see what they loved about it go away?

- Did it go away? Or has it grown and changed with the influx of new people who want to experience BM on their own terms? Or should they adhere to the dogma of the 'original burners'. It's a two way street....

these were not just anybody, but do'ers and creators who's actions help create the event that you enjoy. they lived by a philosophy that gave birth to the ten principals that you follow without them ever having to document it, it came naturally.

-Those people are still there, and there are a lot more of them! I've read posts from people who describe themselves as 'long time' burners, who were there from the beginning, that SCORN the 10 principles. And the people that go there now are not 'just anybody'. Why pass judgement on them, or are the people that invented the ten principles somehow better than everybody else that goes?

part of our motivation was not to create some dogmatic cult, in fact thats a big thing we wanted to free ourselves from and looking back thats proved to be a really big thing. freeing yourself from certain social constraints and beliefs empowers you with incredible motivation and freedom to create your own environment that EVERYBODY enjoys. much of that has slowly and steadily dissolved away.

-I don't disagree with you here, and wish it more true than not. But does arson constitute freedom?! And not everybody enjoyed it...

i am not saying you have to agree or not with what happened, but i would hope its important to understand WHY these things happen before you pass judgement on EVERYTHING.

-Paul Addis torched the man, not as a prank, but as a way of PUNISHING other people for not hewing to his philosophy of how things should be. It was an act of arson. It was a punative measure against Harvey, other burners, or whoever else he had a grudge with when he got it into his head to rob people of the experience seeing the man burn.
For me, the man is symbol of impermanence. The hours or work and material that are put into it are expected to be lost to the fire. For some people, seeing the work that goes into it and then seeing it counsciously destroyed is liberating.

But because we are a community (if we chose to think of ourselves as such), we can reasonably expect to SHARE this experience, regardless of the reason, or what people do (or don't) get out of gathering for the event. We hit the playa, we celebrate our lives together, we dance, we create, we spectate/participate, and maybe we even argue. But we do it together.
For me, Addis broke the trust. How many other Addis' are out there waiting to punish people for their 'wrong' thinking...
I would rather that he followed the more difficult path, and CREATED something to get his message out, to get people to think. Instead he chose to destroy, and now we see the discord that follows that destruction.

[Badger]

Stryder,

That's the most succinct encapsulation of my own sentiments that I've read to date on Addis the Bug's act of vandalism.

Thanks for that.

[Teo del Fuego]

yeah, second the kudos for stryders summation.

Addisababa's true motives are probably best seen by the fact he had not been to a Burn since, what, 96? 98? This guy didn't give a shit for BM, just his own fame and perhaps a way to jump start a new career as....what?

[spectabillis]

- Did it go away? Or has it grown and changed with the influx of new people who want to experience BM on their own terms? Or should they adhere to the dogma of the 'original burners'. It's a two way street....

two way street is right, but its you that originally refered to one groups 'love' without mentioning the other.

-Those people are still there, and there are a lot more of them! I've read posts from people who describe themselves as 'long time' burners, who were there from the beginning, that SCORN the 10 principles. And the people that go there now are not 'just anybody'. Why pass judgement on them, or are the people that invented the ten principles somehow better than everybody else that goes?

if you are inferring that turnover brought in a general change for the better i dont agree. yet anyone can come up with specific examples of things that have changed for the better or worse. i am talking about taken as a whole, overall, and i dont see the trend changing.

and its less about a former version of one groups 'dogma' that was replaced by a later version.. why? because part of the point was not having ANY.

so if you are going to use 'its just the nature of change' argument then you have to allow others naturally disagreeing with the changes. burning the man was discussed and mentioned by lots of different people over the years, not meant as a punitive measure (despite paul addis motivations) but more an expression of thier dislike of whats happened using the most relevant example.

we may think its collectively shared by all, but unfortunately it doesnt seem so, and that was partially the point.

[Stryder]

Well, we just disagree then, and that's fine.
Does that mean I should come to your house and light your mailbox?

- Did it go away? Or has it grown and changed with the influx of new people who want to experience BM on their own terms? Or should they adhere to the dogma of the 'original burners'. It's a two way street....

two way street is right, but its you that originally refered to one groups 'love' without mentioning the other.

-Those people are still there, and there are a lot more of them! I've read posts from people who describe themselves as 'long time' burners, who were there from the beginning, that SCORN the 10 principles. And the people that go there now are not 'just anybody'. Why pass judgement on them, or are the people that invented the ten principles somehow better than everybody else that goes?

if you are inferring that turnover brought in a general change for the better i dont agree. yet anyone can come up with specific examples of things that have changed for the better or worse. i am talking about taken as a whole, overall, and i dont see the trend changing.

and its less about a former version of one groups 'dogma' that was replaced by a later version.. why? because part of the point was not having ANY.

so if you are going to use 'its just the nature of change' argument then you have to allow others naturally disagreeing with the changes. burning the man was discussed and mentioned by lots of different people over the years, not meant as a punitive measure (despite paul addis motivations) but more an expression of thier dislike of whats happened using the most relevant example.

we may think its collectively shared by all, but unfortunately it doesnt seem so, and that was partially the point.