Creating "exploding" propane gas balls

Moonpie · Post by **Moonpie** » Wed Sep 19, 2007 12:16 pm

Hi BM Community:

How does one go about creating those fantastic propane fire balls/jets that I see at BM on art cars and some displays? I know they are remotely controlled, but how? What valve does one use? I want to create a large standing "candleabra" with about 5 pipes and a remote controlled valve on each one powered by a barbeque propane gas tank. How do I do that?

EspressoDude · Post by **EspressoDude** » Wed Sep 19, 2007 2:08 pm

One does this very carefully!..

Propane can make a huge fire where you don't want it. And in the right mixtures with air/oxygen can be explosive.

Keep checking back, cuz the experts are at BurningMan, and also some "lucky" ones, too.

Toolmaker · Post by **Toolmaker** » Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:44 pm

Indeed, you must use the right plumbing for your art/effect. Make sure its rated for LP and the pressure you plan on working with. Also BBQ grill tanks are often setup with serious flow restriction you may want to consider larger tanks for what you want so you don't have to swap tanks too often. Also bring extra fittings, lines, silver solder etc. That way if you run into some sort of problem we can get ya sorted out and running. Once you get the plumbing aspect figured out you can have a valve for adjusting flow to achieve the flame size of your torch/weedburner. The whoosh flame ball being automated would require some expensive shit. If you use ball valves participants/campmates could operate the effect and have some fun. I rather enjoyed interactive fire effects, a little more than the larger "automated" stuff. Having the push button on the top of the sandcrawler is alot more fun since you can do small whooshes with just a tap or hold the button down for a full blast. A little practice and I was able to tap the button 4 times fast and get multiple short blasts that got the crowd cheering. Also consider heating of your liquid propane tank so you don't get freezing. Your accumulator tanks do not not to be heated since they only store the propane gas.

MikeVDS · Post by **MikeVDS** » Wed Sep 19, 2007 6:55 pm

Are you working on some fire effects for 08 yet Toolmaker?

Toolmaker · Post by **Toolmaker** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 1:48 am

MikeVDS wrote:Are you working on some fire effects for 08 yet Toolmaker?

I'm still trying to study up on the plumbing.. I don't want to get the wrong ball valve and go boom. I saw some large ball valves that had mention of LP but lower pressures than 30-50 (5PSI). Whats that all about? I know I can pull off a sign or something small and artsy so my dream of a fire cannon may not happen in 08. But I may have a really wild art piece like that head in our village near the gigs bar, well not a head per se but a really cool neato small scale piece.

Speaking of fire effects.. we gotta make sure the Crawlers have the right plumbing next year.. if memory recalls the only holdup the had was that resticter crap on the BBQ grill propane tanks. A smallish valve should fix that up. You doing flames for your tiki sign next year?

Something to think about.. small 2V dome with flames all over the motherfucker.

ya know for nighttime and shit.

CapSmashy · Post by **CapSmashy** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 6:05 am

A small fire dome would be pretty cool.

EspressoDude · Post by **EspressoDude** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 6:20 am

Liquid propane in the tanks is at about 160psi, based on guage readings on the playa. This is on a tank at ambient temperature abt 80 -90f.

Once large scale use begins, the liquid will cool and the pressure drops.

If you are putting a valve between the supply tank and accumulator, that valve needs to be rated higher, like 250psi or more.

Backflow check valves are highly encouraged, so a flame cannot get back to the tanks and go BOOM.

MikeVDS · Post by **MikeVDS** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:05 am

I don't want to get the wrong ball valve and go boom.

I actually use some parts that aren't being used what they were designed for. It's fine as long as they can fail and not cause harm.

Speaking of fire effects.. we gotta make sure the Crawlers have the right plumbing next year.. if memory recalls the only holdup the had was that resticter crap on the BBQ grill propane tanks.

That is the current theory I think.

You doing flames for your tiki sign next year?

I probably will make sure all the parts come for the sign next year. I'll have a 6 month old and probably won't come for the whole week, so I'll probably pick a couple simple projects that I can set-up and take little upkeep.

Moonpie · Post by **Moonpie** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:31 pm

Yikes you guys got technical REAL fast!

1. Where would I get LP rated pipes/tubing?
2. Where would I get a backflow check valve?
3. Guess I mis-spoke when I said I wanted it automated...5 manual actuators would be nice...what buttons do you guys use?
4. Where would I get a ball valve that you talk about? What type?
5. I guess I'm not looking for a big ball of fire...just those "wooshes" I see on the Playa...is the restricter on a barbecque propane tank going to shut that down? I'm not looking for a BIG bang just a quick hit "swish".
6. If I go to a bigger tank with no restrictor, where do I get that and will gas stations fill that?

Help! Where do I start?

EspressoDude · Post by **EspressoDude** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 3:23 pm

you might want to Google "propane flame effects" and check out some links.

Also look for the Illumination Village folks at BM. website? People like Lucy with the Caliope car and Ken are knowledgeable folks and still have most body parts.....(well Lucy IS special!)

Dustdevil · Post by **Dustdevil** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 3:56 pm

Most of the supplies can be purchased at shops that sell and create hoses. You will often find them near airports. You will need a 1/4 ball valve near the propane source for quick shut down. A back flow valve is not needed. The PST does not require them on propane. They are a good idea with hydrogen or accetylene, however, as the flammability range is greater than that of propane. Look for valves that have a WOG on them. Water Oil Gas. They will work perfectly. You are better off using fittings that thread together rather than silver solder. The hose shops can crimp your hoses to the correct hose ends. Propane and air can acheive a temperature of close to 2000F. Most silver solder melts around 1300F. The PST is going to frown on soldered joints in a Flame Effects device. If you use any hard tubing or pipe that is in an area that can build full pressure, you must use schedule 80. 40 is not strong enough. The same holds true for the fittings.

Moonpie · Post by **Moonpie** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 4:13 pm

I appologize for being a newbie! Never worked with stuff like this!

1. What is PST? I know PSI but not PST
2. I assume a hose to the proposed art-work-candelabra sculpture? I assume screw fitting pipe for the sculpture?
3. Does the ball valve screw in? What actuates it? What opens and closes the ball valve (remotely)?
4. Will a standard BBQ tank put out enough gas without shutting down?

Dustdevil · Post by **Dustdevil** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 4:37 pm

The PST is the Performance Safety Team. They examine fire art on the Playa and issue a laminate so the authorities don't give you a bad time. They look are any flame effects on Mutant Vehicles or on Playa art. A ball valve is a simple valve that uses a lever to turn the valve on and off. If you look at your water heater gas line at home, you will see a ball valve to turn the gas off if you need to service the unit. It will turn the gas on or off with only a 1/4 of a turn, thus making it very fast to shut down the supply in the event of a "situation". This is opposed to a water valve on the outside of your home where it takes several turns to stop the flow.

Toolmaker · Post by **Toolmaker** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:27 pm

Dustdevil wrote:You are better off using fittings that thread together rather than silver solder. Propane and air can acheive a temperature of close to 2000F. Most silver solder melts around 1300F. The PST is going to frown on soldered joints in a Flame Effects device.

These things are seriously gonna fuck with my plans for an actual art piece. I wanted to have a somewhat seamless look throughout. The fire for this idea is small.. just for dressing up something. Very low pressure system with very low consumption. Is there a formula about for figuring the heat buildup on pipe? (even a rough guess pull a number outta yer ass kinda thing would do) I am not tied into any particular material for the effect so I could always use stainless for the "effect path/relavent heat affected zone". I really would prefer to go with the golden look though, but black or polished steel will suffice if necessary.

MikeVDS · Post by **MikeVDS** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:46 pm

I can give you some rough temp ranges if you give me some rough ranges of your effects. What thickness and size tubing are you thinking? What operating pressures? Will the effects all just come directly out of the pipe and will the pipes face upward?

Thinking about running the calcs and tests, it's probably easiest if you just make part of your art and run it for a while and then hit it with a infrared thermometer or thermometer. That'll be the most accurate anyway.

Dustdevil · Post by **Dustdevil** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:33 pm

These things are seriously gonna fuck with my plans for an actual art piece. I wanted to have a somewhat seamless look throughout. The fire for this idea is small.. just for dressing up something. Very low pressure system with very low consumption. Is there a formula about for figuring the heat buildup on pipe? (even a rough guess pull a number outta yer ass kinda thing would do) I am not tied into any particular material for the effect so I could always use stainless for the "effect path/relavent heat affected zone". I really would prefer to go with the golden look though, but black or polished steel will suffice if necessary.[/quote]

The heat build up is minimal. The PST will be looking at work case scenario. It you are using full pressure off of a propane source, you will need schedule 80 for the tubing. If you wish to have a more "seamless" look, braze the tubes. It will have a nice appearance, brazing is simple and it is plenty strong for what you are doing.

Dustdevil · Post by **Dustdevil** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:34 pm

That should have been worst case scenario.

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:12 pm

Also BBQ grill tanks are often setup with serious flow restriction you may want to consider larger tanks for what you want so you don't have to swap tanks too often.

i usually get decent flow from an opd valve for most things. if its flame bursts i remove the valve since it has an npt thread into the tank. its usually a bitch to remove, i wish i knew what thread sealant they use because i would use that instead of the specialized rectorseal for high pressure and temp. had to use a pipe wrench with a three foot cheater bar and ended up bending the valve since its brass.

yo dustdevil - do you know if dmv would send a small turbine powered personal vehicle to pst inspection? my guess would be no because its not performance, but its combustion flame powered with hot exhaust so i am not 100% sure.

Tiahaar · Post by **Tiahaar** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:23 pm

Dustdevil wrote:That should have been worst case scenario.

Ha, you know how playa ruffians turn work case scenarios into worst case scenarios...

Dustdevil! Thank you to you and the PST for helping me solve a flow limiting condition, great tip worked awesome. The Dragtrike flamed away all week.

Toolmaker and MikeVDS I look forward to seeing your flame effects next year, more fire! I want to try a 'pop' cannon run off a spark plug and coil.

Moonpie, you need a mentor...where are you located? You want to be comfortable with normal gas piping before going for special effects. Below is the very basic manifold I put together to do a pilot burner, poofer, and accumulator fireball. Lots of threaded brass fittings, the copper tubing connected with flared and swaged fittings, all valves and gauges are WOG +250 PSI rated. The accumulator fired nicely at 60 PSI, so my standard BBQ tank lasted 5 nights.

edit to add: Spec! doing a pulsejet or actual turbine engine??!! Either would be way cool!!

Dustdevil · Post by **Dustdevil** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:27 pm

Funny you should ask. I am considering using an extra turbine I have, a Garrett 70-52, to power a large Ladybug. I haven't decided if I want to leave the genny on the turbine and usie a 400 cycle motor, or remove the tail section and use the thrust. Turbines fall under my jurisdiction with the PST because of my use of them on the Playa. I am guessing by your question you would be using thrust. The PST has three reps that inspect at the DMV each night. We are generally looking at Flame Effects. The first question I would ask is whether or not you are going to use an afterburner. If the answer is "yes", you would fall under the FE catagory and would need an inspection. If not, then my only interest would be in making certain you are aware of the jet blast and its' possible effect on pedestrians. My large turbine makes approx 1000 HP at 885 pounds of thrust. The jet blast has an effective distance of approx 25'. A smaller gas turbine like me 70-52 has a blast of approx 8 feet. It is only 70 HP. I am inclined to use mine with the genny still on it. It is far less noisy that way. My big one makes 147db at 50', without the AB running. I have given much thought and it would seem that a slight angle upwards for dust control would be useful. Also, we have done tests on my large turbine as far as inhaling debris from the ground. We use a FOD (foriegn object damage) for large items, but we have found that it will NOT pick up dust or light debris when the intake is elevated more than 3' off the ground. I see no problem with what you wish to do. I would be more than happy to assist you in any way I could. As long as you use the proper safety precautions, you will get a pass from me. If you do use the AB, it will need to be in a stationary configuration so a safety perimeter can be maintained.

Jack

Dustdevil · Post by **Dustdevil** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:35 pm

As a point of interest (or not) the smoke generator that I used to cover Crude Awakening before the show started was a military unit that is powered by a pulse jet. Effective little guy for its' size. The pulse jet has enough thrust to pump the oil from the holding tank, heat the oil to 1000dgs C and then force it out of the exhaust ports at a high volume. The down side of all the jets, gas turbine and pulse jet, is that they are noisy. Some more than others. I like the noise, but not everyone feels that way.

Toolmaker · Post by **Toolmaker** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:08 am

Dustdevil wrote:As a point of interest (or not) the smoke generator that I used to cover Crude Awakening before the show started was a military unit that is powered by a pulse jet. Effective little guy for its' size. The pulse jet has enough thrust to pump the oil from the holding tank, heat the oil to 1000dgs C and then force it out of the exhaust ports at a high volume. The down side of all the jets, gas turbine and pulse jet, is that they are noisy. Some more than others. I like the noise, but not everyone feels that way.

I was wondering about that actually.. it didn't have that dry ice in 55 gallon drums look. Nice big bank of the stuff.. great job.

Basically I want to light up sections of a dome at night when the chute comes off. I was thinkin of something removable to be mounted to the struts. Small 2V dome to fit the smallest cheapo parachute I can find would be the size. I'd like to light the whole surface at night but don't know if I can afford something that scale. Maybe some fire at the top with a valve or button for participants to play with thats a lil larger using the weed burner ignition. Alot depends on my foot injury and lack of shop access. If I get my foot sorted I have shops lined up that want me where I can do side projects again. As it is now I'm only good for computer work

goathead · Post by **goathead** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:11 am

Moonpie, you need a mentor...

This is the best piece of advise there is.
Working with someone who KNOWS what they are doing is invaluable.
If you are unable to work with a burner in your area, at the very least contact the local propane suppliers, tell them what you want to do, and find one that wants to work with you.

CapSmashy · Post by **CapSmashy** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:00 am

Tool, for running a low pressure flame around the dome structure, it would not take much. This is a flame f/x rig I've worked with in the past:

The hoses on the left run back to individual propane BBQ cylinders and into the accumulator and out to the flame effect bars or nozzles.
You can kinda see the flame bars in the next pics.

The Rabbit actually had 2 bars in it. One secured to the side as pictured and a flamesquare in the the interior.

These are cranked full open and running straight off cylinder pressure.

And Scott pulling the flame square off the BMW after it got fully involved.

Now, I'm not exactly sure how one of these would work on Playa. We call it a can popper. It uses an explosive charge to fire a hollow, sharpened ram into the base of a camping cylinder and vent it and then a small incindeary flash goes off to ignite the propane cloud.

Here's a behind the scenes look at a popper from a movie we worked on 2 summers ago.
[youtube][/youtube]

For the fire on the dome, I do not think you'd need anything even close to the manifold I posted. All of the flame sticks are made from black iron pipe but that would not work to well for shaping around a dome though.

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:57 am

Tiahaar wrote:edit to add: Spec! doing a pulsejet or actual turbine engine??!! Either would be way cool!!

diy turbine, got most of it done except the combustion chamber.

Dustdevil wrote: Turbines fall under my jurisdiction with the PST because of my use of them on the Playa.

just created http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic.php?p=345242 so i dont drift the topic here.

smashy, thats one cool-as-hell job you got.

EspressoDude · Post by **EspressoDude** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:00 am

Smashy - You have a cool phucking job....you ACTUALLY GET PAID to do that!

Tool - regarding head build up on the dome/gas jet piping, you should take a piece of black iron pipe, drill a row of holes(1/8" - experiment) and connect to a gas supply and light it.

I think the pipe will not get hot enuff for structural failure. The flames will be above the pipe jets where the gas has mixed with air. Polish a section of pipe and see what color it turns during the burn. You can look up a steel tempering color chart for the temperature achived (straw yellow to blue to purple) I would guess max about 400 degrees

If you run a gas stove the actual flame head does not get as hot as the grill above. Also think about gas BBQ's...cheap ass aluminum gas heads..

On my 20mm gatling gun simulator which is oxy - propane, the single "burn barrel" gets red hot very fast because the combustion is inside the black iron pipe.

CapSmashy · Post by **CapSmashy** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:24 am

EspressoDude wrote:Smashy - You have a cool phucking job....you ACTUALLY GET PAID to do that!

Actually, I go out and do that for free a lot of the time because it is so much fun. The guy in the "Go Big" t-shirt is Steve Krieger the f/x coordinator I usually work with. He'll call me up when he needs an extra set of hands for a day and if I'm available, I go out and play.

My normal paid gig on the set is for running weapons. Guns are almost as fun.

MikeVDS · Post by **MikeVDS** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:35 am

you should take a piece of black iron pipe, drill a row of holes(1/8" - experiment)

You can try slits too. With our sign we took a sawsall and cut almost half way through at a 45 degree angle to the length of the pipe. It was a bit easier than holes too. I think one thing to remember is that this is very high pressure relative to the natural gas coming into your house. Don't picture your fireplace or BBQ pit, picture 6 foot+ flames if you're not regulating the pressure. On our sign we use a small valve and throttle it down. A regulator will be an improvement though so that the flame height won't change as the tank cools down.

Dustdevil · Post by **Dustdevil** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:22 am

Moonpie,

Goathead has offered the best bit of info you could ask for. I would amend one item, though. I would not be too quick to tell a propane supplier what you are doing. Not too far back, our own DaveX was asked to leave a hardware store when he told them what he needed the valves and pipes for, while building some propane effects. A few months ago while I was building the propane cannon for Crude Awakening, the supplier did not wish to sell me the fill valves and relief valves when I explained my plans. It was only because we knew some of the same people in the propane industry and that I had an engineering drawing, with the wet stamp, that he finally relented. Many propane people do not understand that this can be done safely. I would choose my words carefully when asked what you want the parts for.

MikeVDS · Post by **MikeVDS** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:33 am

Our supplier loves pictures and burner event stories and even gives us discounts. It's not something everyone will understand or like but you can always feel places out for friendly ones.

Creating "exploding" propane gas balls

Creating "exploding" propane gas balls

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