turbine engine power

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:55 am

topic for interest in turbines on the playa: diy turbocharger, apu, or the big *&#%$ing ones.

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:13 am

Dustdevil wrote:Funny you should ask. I am considering using an extra turbine I have, a Garrett 70-52, to power a large Ladybug. I haven't decided if I want to leave the genny on the turbine and usie a 400 cycle motor, or remove the tail section and use the thrust. Turbines fall under my jurisdiction with the PST because of my use of them on the Playa. I am guessing by your question you would be using thrust. The PST has three reps that inspect at the DMV each night. We are generally looking at Flame Effects. The first question I would ask is whether or not you are going to use an afterburner. If the answer is "yes", you would fall under the FE catagory and would need an inspection. If not, then my only interest would be in making certain you are aware of the jet blast and its' possible effect on pedestrians. My large turbine makes approx 1000 HP at 885 pounds of thrust. The jet blast has an effective distance of approx 25'. A smaller gas turbine like me 70-52 has a blast of approx 8 feet. It is only 70 HP. I am inclined to use mine with the genny still on it. It is far less noisy that way. My big one makes 147db at 50', without the AB running. I have given much thought and it would seem that a slight angle upwards for dust control would be useful. Also, we have done tests on my large turbine as far as inhaling debris from the ground. We use a FOD (foriegn object damage) for large items, but we have found that it will NOT pick up dust or light debris when the intake is elevated more than 3' off the ground. I see no problem with what you wish to do. I would be more than happy to assist you in any way I could. As long as you use the proper safety precautions, you will get a pass from me. If you do use the AB, it will need to be in a stationary configuration so a safety perimeter can be maintained. Jack

i am working on a diy turbine using a huge turbocharger i got off a salvaged diesel dumptruck. doing the diy route because its the best intro to learn before i move on to an apu that you mention - so i am interested in knowing your progress if you do something like that. i ran into welding problems with the combustion chamber and couldnt finish it for this year, so decided to cheat when i found a guy that had a few off a huge rolls royce aircraft engine.

not using a afterburner because i agree that wouldnt seem safe to have a flame out the end that would charbroil peoples legs. its intended as a personal vehicle but would only be used a couple of times and running at the 5mph speed limit, so i dont need that kind of thrust.

two things i didnt know about, kicking up dust and noise. but many thanks for posting some of your experience because i also wondered about dust through the intake, i need to build a high-throughput filter. i am still searching links on thrust mods for noise on nasa research sites

otherwise most of what i have seems safe enough. its built into a wheelchair so i can still get around manually, but after talking with the dmv i realized they dont run into a lot of turbine projects and didnt have many answers. i will post pics up later to show whats been done so far.

CapSmashy · Post by **CapSmashy** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:26 am

Spec, this sounds really, really cool. A turbine powered wheel chair? Fuck yeah.

Dustdevil · Post by **Dustdevil** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:35 am

There was a wheelchair powered by a pulse jet a NIMBY last year. I believe it was for a benefit for the Thunderdome. It was attached to a pylon. A person would ride in the wheel chair as it went in circles. I would estimate its speed at over 20 mph hour. The side load on the wheels was HUGE. It was loud, hot and fast. I watched it for hours as people took turns in the "hot seat". I really nice bit of engineering.

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:20 am

When considering the use of turbines for anything it's important to prioritize.

Always.

http://www.asciimation.co.nz/beer/

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 8:40 pm

thanks smashy.

Dustdevil wrote:I would estimate its speed at over 20 mph hour.

from a pulse jet?! thats incredible, how big was it?

its been a big learning experience so i am glad i started with the diy route. i have done most of the work before but not used it to build a jet engine. here's a couple of pics with the seat and footrest removed.

you can see the combustion chamber isnt finished and the compression feed is just sticking up. even though i have the lid and flame tube done, after running into the problem of welding the outer casing to the flange i decided to start over and cheat since i would run into the same problem with the compression feed inlet. so i found someone with a few of the following cc's that i am going to adapt instead since it will also have much more power to compensate for not building an afterburner.

LeChatNoir · Post by **LeChatNoir** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 11:09 pm

Spectabillis...

I love you.

Couldn't talk you into trading those wire spokes jobs in for some wood wagon wheels, could I?

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:01 am

heh.. thanks man. steel or wood wheels would make it too heavy, jet engines work better by constant acceleration that approaches the speed of the exhaust, not brute force.

but i think i understand where you are comming from, strange how the stacks and large wheels kinda look like its steam powered.

Tiahaar · Post by **Tiahaar** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 1:11 am

Yowsa! Post more progress photos as you go along Spect, that's a winner!
P.S. Badger: that beer cooler is outrageous : )

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:05 pm

thanks, if someone wants more details i guess i can take more pics and go over it.

does anyone know of a diy kit for an ignition coil driver? like one used in homemade cannons with sparkplug ignitors? right now i have a simple auto coil connected to the battery and spark plug with a switch, but would have to keep flipping the switch to get a repeating spark - so while i am backing up and redoing things i want to replace that.

one like this, but u.s. based, i dont have my electronic stuff with me to make one myself. http://www.rmcybernetics.com/projects/D ... driver.htm

Dustdevil · Post by **Dustdevil** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:27 am

This is not the answer you are looking for now, but I have two solutions for ignition on a turbine engine. These will perform better if you intend to use kero, diesel, JetA or JP8 as they take more heat to ignite. If you are near any aircraft surplus or wrecking yards, an exciter from a jet engine is the best. You will not need a "yellow tag" and must explain that to them, this will get you a better price as yellow tag means it has been inspected and certified for flight. A Bendix exciter works well. It will function with an input from 8 volts up to 36 volts. It will produce a lower voltage spark, but with much more amperage. You need this to ignite the above fuels. If you plan to run on propane or gasoline an automotive coil will work. On my large turbine I have installed an automotive system known as an MSD. Multiple Spark Discharge. Normally those are driven by the distributor or a crank trigger. I have dual igniters, so I split the unit and use two coils. I drive the unit with an MSD test module. I can preset the rpm's (read sparks per minute manually). I went to the MSD system as the older avaition systems will fail eventually. I can buy the MSD parts anywhere in the country.

Post by **mdmf007** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 3:47 pm

Spec - you can use a cheap stun gun for a sustained spark. I see cheap ones at gas stations for 25-30 bucks.

Simply take it apart, extend the contact point wires where you need the spark, insulate them - your a techy you can figure out how to get extend the circuit. Anyways a stun Gin spark is 60-100K volts, plenty hot to ignite gas.

Later

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 11:45 pm

Dustdevil - i am leaning towards k1, and i heard about aircraft exciters but its hit and miss finding them on ebay. didnt think of taking the msd route, but i since i am not going gas it may not be the best.

btw, how do you start yours? i was planning on using a leaf blower to start the compression cycle but i remember some random mention of using a co2 bottle and running a small nozzle into the housing aimed at an angle to the inducer.

mdmf007 - gotta say for the life of me i would never have thought of that. i am going to see if i can find any online hacks using those because.. well thats just so damn cool. talk about a cheap jacobs ladder!

Toolmaker · Post by **Toolmaker** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 1:03 am

mdmf007 wrote:Spec - you can use a cheap stun gun for a sustained spark. I see cheap ones at gas stations for 25-30 bucks.

Simply take it apart, extend the contact point wires where you need the spark, insulate them - your a techy you can figure out how to get extend the circuit. Anyways a stun Gin spark is 60-100K volts, plenty hot to ignite gas.

Later

Friggin genius.. I wonder if this would work on a flame effect instead of using a weedburner or torch.

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 5:49 am

you mean as an ignitor for something bigger? seems possible, i found the following link that has a great and simple overview with its guts showing. i want one to hook up to a power supply and see what it takes to overload it!

http://www.emanator.demon.co.uk/bigclive/stunner.htm

Dustdevil · Post by **Dustdevil** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:19 am

While a stun gun works OK on a low pressure flame effect, you will find that an accumulator of a decent size will blow it out before ignition occurs. We just put a small unit on a motorcycle that does stunt riding. Igniting the unit is the problem. The stun gun would not ignite the effect. We could not use an open flame pilot so we ended up tapping off the engines ignition system.
Both of my turbines use run on JP8. The small one will start when the vanes reach 10,000 rpm and the big guy starts when the turbine reaches 5000 rpms. Both use 24V electric starters. CO2 or Nitrogen would be fine for starting. I believe you will find with a leaf blower you will have slow starts. I have seen this done using propane for startup and then switching to kero.

Token · Post by **Token** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 1:32 pm

SB, there is a very good group of DIY Turbine nuts here:

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/DIYGasTurbines/

It is a yahoo group (yuck) but the data up there is fantastic.

BitterDan · Post by **BitterDan** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 2:04 pm

OMG you are going to ride that thing? Remind me to get out of your way.

CapSmashy · Post by **CapSmashy** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 2:18 pm

BitterDan wrote:OMG you are going to ride that thing? Remind me to get out of your way.

He better be careful and keep people from humping it.

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 3:45 pm

HEY NO SPOOGE ON THE WHEELCHAIR!

and fuck yeah i'm riding it!

i sometimes check out that yahoo group because they have some really active and experienced people, but web searches on personal project pages and finding out on my own is usually the way i go.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 6:06 pm

spec, i think fishie should be your test driver..

LeChatNoir · Post by **LeChatNoir** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 6:15 pm

unjonharley wrote:spec, i think fishie should be your test driver..

YeeHaw!!!!

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 7:42 am

can if she likes but i'm not convinced she would want to.

a turbocharger shaft being pushed above the floater bearings tolerance in rpm's and heat.. yeah those have a tendency to grenade.. and.. well.. its right under the test pilots crotch.

ed: although i did try and design the cooling around that, the oil tank is only a half inch from the bottom with a salvaged six tube transmission cooler. what most dont realize is despite the oil inlet being pressurized turbochargers are gravity drain. the orientation of the the compressor outlet and exhaust inlet had me tilt it slightly past its 15 degree safety margin for a straight drain so i tried to compensate by going with the widest 3/4" tube thats only a few inches long into the tank. that and the bypass valve setup is after the radiator so there is extra cooling designed by cycling through. safety third is fun and all but sorry, it doesnt apply to my balls.

Tiahaar · Post by **Tiahaar** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 10:34 pm

spectabillis wrote: safety third is fun and all but sorry, it doesnt apply to my balls.

better use a flack vest as the seat cushion...

EspressoDude · Post by **EspressoDude** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 6:29 am

or a tranny safety blanket:

http://www.allstarperformance.com/product.htm?prod=438

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 1:01 pm

lightweight, sounds promising..

EspressoDude, just curious but what do you use to ignite your cannons?