Does Saddam Capture = Bush Re-election?

[stuart]

as far as the saudi air lift post 9/11 it was not the government per se that was in on it. From what I have read the FBI threw a major fit about letting what they thought were material witnesses flee the country. However, Bush Sr. would not be swayed and his associates left unmolested.

[KellY]

Razor-Edged Claymore of Truth Award for Bgirl...

[bgirl]

Thanks Kelly.

[bgirl]

Yo Eclipitc,

In your non-blindly "kill them because they want to kill me" scenario, do the 3,800 (minimum) to 5,000 civilian deaths in Afghanistan in the months immediatley following 911 enter the equation? As you may recall, the final tally of deaths from the World Trade Center was 2,998, so in the War On Terror we're ahead in causing deaths of innocents. That's not even counting the dead civilians in Iraq, which in my opinion doesn't even count as part of the war against terrorists.

They enter the equation, sure. There will always be innocents killed in war, there's no way around that. The difference is that we're not intentionally targeting them, like our enemies do.

What do you call launching a full scale attack on a country that has already been under the oppression of dictators for years??????An attack is an attack is an attack....Another thing,I really wish the American President and all the media out there would refer to the ,"terrorist 911 attackers," as ,"Saudi Arabia attacks U.S. ,"or something that at least points to the fact that 15 out of the 19 ,"terrorists,' were Saudi Arabian.As a obviously concerned American,Ecliptic ,I would seriously wonder why your president censored out 28 pages of a Congress investigation into 911,that dealt specifically with the Saudis' role in the 911 attacks?And also,everyone in the media and Bush keep on calling bin Laden a ,"terrorist," and while this man maybe a terrorist , he is also a MULTIMILLIONAIRE,who has severe kidney failure and needs a dialysis machine to stay alive.I wonder where a Saudi Arabian multimillionaire,with very close family ties to the Bushes for 25 years ,and severe kidney failure is right now?[url

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• [/list Kathy Gannon,"Bin Laden reportedly ailing,"The Associated Press,March 25,2000;Hardball With Chris Mathews,MSNBC,November 19,2001;interview with Michael Griffin,author Reaping The Whirlwind:The Taliban Movement in Afghanistan,(pluto may 2001)More bin Laden history with dialysis,see John F.Burns,"Pakistanis say bin Laden may be dead of disease,"The New York Times,jan 19,2002;Thomas Petzinger Jr.,et al.,"Family Ties:How oil firm linked to a son of Bush won Bahrain Drilling Pact-Harken Energy had a web of Mideast connections;in the background:BCCI-entree at the White House,"The Wall Street Journal,December 6,1991;Mike Ward,"Bin Laden relatives have ties to Texas,"Austin American-Statesman,nov 9,2001;Kurt Eichenwald,"Bin Laden family liquidates Holdings with Carlyle Group,"oct 26,2001;Mike Allen,"For Bush,a slippery situation,"The Washington Post,june 23,2000;James Rupert,"The Us-Saudi relations were built on oil,security -and secrecy,''The Washington Post ,aug 9,1990;Elsa Walsh,"How the Saudi Ambassador became Washington's indespensible operater,"The New Yorker ,mar 24 ,2003;Oliver Burkeman,"The Winners:The Ex-President's Club,"The Guardian,oct 31,2001;Leslie Wayne,"Elder Bush in big GOP cast toiling for top equity firm,"The New York Times,mar 5,2001.

[Badger]

I am not inclined to make statements like that unless have seen thme to be reported as incontrovertable.

Most of us know and appreciate you for that Stuart.

[bgirl]

Totally agree with your last post Stuart,the FBI apparently did freak out .Oh well,I guess we know just how powerful the Republicans and their buddies, the Corporations ,really are...they can obviously and plainly bullshit the public and get away with it...much like any other government.....

[diane o'thirst]

So okay, let's see, under this scenario:

We stinking infidels and heathens, we deserved to have 9/11 happen to us, and worse, because we've done such horrible things to the Islamists. Right. Let's give peace a chance and just continue on our self-flagellating way. Aren't you ashamed for not having a covering over your head? Is your brother's beard long enough? Give up those kites and radios right now before your hands get cut off!

Don't sing, don't dance, don't even think about music. Just read the Bible or whichever scripture you hold sacred, and adhere to it literally and assiduously. Take slaves from Canada and Mexico, don't approach the altar wearing glasses, give up shellfish, shrimp and anything with cloven hooves except mutton and beef. Don't say God's name on pain of having your tongue cut out, and forget about Goddess too. There is no Goddess, you unbelieving scum. Listen, the black choppers are coming to send a missile straight into the nearest metaphysical bookstore. BOOM! There goes a beautiful grove of oaks that has been known to be frequented by those horrid Pagans. God says put them to the sword, so hop to it!

Don't associate with anyone except your immediate female kin. Your elder male family members are dead? TSOL, that means you can't ever go out again. Forget about getting a job and/or going to school, too.

It's our fault, it's all our fault. We should be like that. Then maybe His Wiseness, Osama Bin Laden, will forgive us. Or maybe he'll just tell his toadies to dive bomb the Golden Gate Bridge at the height of rush hour to teach us another lesson.

Has anyone you loved disappeared today? There are people amongst the Taliban and Al Qaeda who make Da Schwub and Asscroft look like Santa Claus.

[bgirl]

Fearmongering at it's worst.No one I love has disappeared today,but ,for many who have family memebers in Guantanoma Bay ,well you'll have to ask them what they think.Newsnight,November 28,2002,Peter Marshall reported that he has found the CIA believes many of those held without CHARGE,TRIAL or SENTENCE ,should not be there....2 years later.

[Patience]

So okay, let's see, under this scenario:

We stinking infidels and heathens, we deserved to have 9/11 happen to us, and worse, because we've done such horrible things to the Islamists. Right. Let's give peace a chance and just continue on our self-flagellating way. Aren't you ashamed for not having a covering over your head? Is your brother's beard long enough? Give up those kites and radios right now before your hands get cut off!

Nobody said the U.S. deserved the attack. I will say, however, that the stance the U.S. has taken toward the Middle East as a whole, and specifically its constant attempts to increase its sphere of influence and power in the region are likely to yield such attacks. Whether or not we "deserve" it is a value judgement--I only aim to point out our course of action, and the hidden costs, in human life (both foreign and domestic). There ARE valid reasons for them to hate the U.S. Shit, there are valid reasons for you and me to hate the U.S. That doesn't mean I condone bombing people over it, any more than I condone bombing Iraqis over oil or power.

As for the rest of your post, I'm going to assume that you can't possibly be so bigoted as to believe that all Muslims want to hunt down non-Muslims and "put them to the sword," but that's certainly the way your post sounds.

Has anyone you loved disappeared today?

Perhaps you should ask the families of over a hundred Americans of Arabic descent who were rounded up by the INS after 9/11, without trial, due process or consultation of an attorney.

I'm not saying that 9/11 wasn't fucked up. It was tragic. What I'm saying is, this is what happens when you try to create an empire and gain power by force and intimidation. People resist, in whatever ways they think fit. This is the cost of empire. So we can allow our government to continue on its course of remaking the world in America's image and accept that many more American lives will be lost along the way, or we can elect leaders who are willing to work toward a real and lasting peace, even if it means that we might have to pay more to gas up our cars, and that other nations might not have the types of governments that best suit our needs.

[stuart]

As for the rest of your post, I'm going to assume that you can't possibly be so bigoted as to believe that all Muslims want to hunt down non-Muslims and "put them to the sword," but that's certainly the way your post sounds.

I think you have her confused with Ann Coulter.

[Patience]

I'm trying to give her the benefit of the doubt and assume I misunderstood her intent.

If I had her confused with Coulter, I'd just be throwing rocks.

And Diane, it's "Muslims," not "Islamists."

[bgirl]

SINCE Saddam was captured , 1 American soldier has died EVERYDAY in this,"war." 1 BILLION DOllARS a week..spent on this ,"war." Can America really afford to continue,at least with Bushs plan of action to drain the countries coffers, on the path Bush has cooked up?Oh yeah,when is the last time you saw or met a holier than thou -fanatical-kill everyone but us terrorist?Never, right ?And oh yeah...since when did the United States give a shit about how Saddam treated his own people,the U.S, seems to love dictators;Cambodia:after secretly extending the Vietnam war into Cambodia in the late sixties and then watching the already decimated country slip under the control of Pol Pot and his Khmer Rouge,the U.S. chose to support this madman for the simple reason that he offered opposition to the Vietnamese communists,who had just fought mighty America to total defeat.Then he took control and wiped out millions of his own people.The Congo/Zaire:The CIA got into bed with Mobutu Sese-Seku early,setting off years of horrific violence that continues today.Afraid of the nationalist leader Patrice Lulumumba,America helped Mobutu to power,oversaw the assassination of Lulumumba and then helped crush the resulting uprisings.Mobutu took dictatorial control,outlawed POLITICAL activities,had people killed,and ruled the country until 1990,with the continued help of the U.S..;Brazil:Left leaning ,democratically elected Presidnt Joao Goulart wasn't what Washington had in mind for South America's largest country.Despite pleging his solidarity to the U.S. during the Cuban missle crisis,Goulart's days were numbered.Preferring "friendly," authoritarian rule to democracy,The United States pushed a coup on Brazil,which resulted in 15 years of terror ,torture and killing.NOW DO YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT MISSING LOVED ONES,CAUSE I"LL BET THERE ARE ALOT OF PEOPLE THAT WANT TO TALK TO YOU,AS AN AMERICAN,ABOUT THEIR MISSING LOVED ONES!!!!Oh yeah ,I almost forgot one of the largest Muslim population in the world,Indonesia:In 1965,yet another democratically elected president was overthrown with the help of the United States government,which installed in his place yet another military dictatorship.General Suharto headed a hard-lined government for three Fucking decades.Around a half a million people were killed in the years after Suharto took power,but that didn't stop the U.S. from approving,in advance,Indonesia's illegal anexation of East Timor into the 70's.200,000 or more people died there,remember,WELL I FUCKIN" DO!!!.There are many more examples of the US's love for dictorial rulers,look at China today.This is a country that imposes severe limits on media outlets,the Internet,worker's rights,religious freedom,and attempts at individual thinking,plus a judicial system that ignores laws .................right now China seems to be the perfect place for the U.S. to do business.800 Kentucky Fried Chickens,400 mcdonalds,100 Pizza Huts and counting.....a 103 billion trade imbalance between China and he U.S.,largest between 2 countries ever,America imports 6 x's as much as it exports,with Wal-Mart alone counting for 12 billion worth of Chinese imports.

[unjonharley]

I have never seem the likes of the dead horse whipping this thread has handed out.

[stuart]

Chile, Iran, Venezuala, El Salvador, Iraq, FYR, Afghanistan, Philipines, Panama, etc..

Funny thing is, Iran had a democratically elected president. Iraq had a woman as it's representative in the league of nations when women's suffrage in the U.S. was just a baby. Unfortunately, their leaders were a little too left leaning for our tastes.

[bgirl]

Another thing ,D.O.T.and Ecliptic ......history did not start after 911,but it seems to me an awful lot of Americans seem to think it does.......also, that they can dish it out.......but basically can't take the heat.Stay the FUCK OUT of the kitchen,other countries kitchens anyway,if you can't take the heat.The Horse must be dead by now?Oh..I see it stirring a bit.Obviously,everybody is entitled to their opinion...........but if that opinion is based on government generated propaganda and cooked books,plus out right bullshit,well,I cannot let such an oversight go by. But jeez,it is sad that BM community members are not more aware of the facts.

[Release Me]

Small minds discuss people, average minds discuss events, and great minds discuss ideas.....

[unjonharley]

Some of you scamps are not old enough to know we are still at war with North Korea. That has never been settled. Just a pac to stop shooting. After a short term and some broken bones as a house guest. I can tell you first hand. Those good old boys in the north are not a bit nice to any one. We never took an inch of there dirt. They kicked our ass. Now they want us to pay them not to make "the bomb". It is and will always be S.O.S. Same old shit.....Different day. Don't hand me any shit of why I was there. Our loving goverment grabed me young ass and shiped me there. To this day they swear I wasn't there even after I was traded back.

[bgirl]

Exactly! Bush wants to rid the world of WOMD,why not look at North Korea?

[Release Me]

Breaking News -- Tests Confirm Mad Cow Came From Canada!

[stuart]

it's all about the deterrent. We aint gonna go and try and kick anyones ass in this political climate if they have even a remote chance of fighting back.

The invasion of Iraq was actually a piece of a much bigger picture.
One was the announcement on September 17th of the National Security Strategy, which is not entirely without precedent, but it is something new. The Bush administration declared, quite frankly and brazenly, that the United States-- their version of the United States-- intends to dominate the world completely and permanently. This means that any potential challenge will be blocked, and if necessary destroyed by the use of military force. This is the one dimension of power, and this is crucial, in which the U.S. has overwhelming advantages. That's not true economically, and it's not true in other respects. It's a more complicated world. But, militarily the United States is in a class by itself, and it's expanding its military force enormously in extremely hazardous ways, which are worth looking at. And the intention is to use that advantage to control the world. So, that was announced in September.

When you announce a policy--if you want it to be taken seriously--you have to carry out what's sometimes called "an exemplary action" to demonstrate that you really mean it. And Iraq was chosen to be the test case, what the New York Times later called "the petri dish," in which the strategy is tried.

Now, Iraq was a very sensible test case. To be a test case for this strategy, a country has to meet several conditions. One, it must be completely defenseless. It doesn’t make any sense to attack anybody who can fight back. That would be ridiculous. So, it has to be defenseless, which of course Iraq was. It was one of the weakest countries in the region. It was devastated by sanctions. Its military expenditures were about a third of Kuwait's, which has 10% of its population. It was under complete surveillance. They knew where every pocket knife in the country was. So, it was completely defenseless. That's point one.

Secondly, it has to be important. There's no point intervening in or conquering, say, Liberia. What are you going to do with it? Iraq is extremely important. It has the second largest reserves of oil in the world. The United States will end up dominating a major sector of the hugest energy reserves in the world. It has dominated it for a long time, but this will advance [that dominance]. Presumably, the U.S. will end up with military bases in Iraq. This is part of the shift of military bases towards the oil producing regions, and it will be the first real military base right in the oil producing regions. So, that's very important.

And third you have to be able to portray the country as somehow evil or threatening our existence, or something like that. And that's possible too. All you have to do is listen to every speech by George Bush or Tony Blair, and they say, "How can we let somebody survive who gassed his own population and invaded two countries, and was developing weapons of mass destruction," and so on, all of which is completely true. But, they always omit the few crucial words. Yeah, he did all that, and we helped him. And we helped him because we didn't care. And "we" is the people now running Washington.

[unjonharley]

Breaking News -- Tests Confirm Mad Cow Came From Canada!

/

We have had mad cows in Salem for years. They are found in and around the mall. Only we call it PMS

[bgirl]

BREAKING NEWS!!!!!!!!!BSE-Madcow occurs ANYWHERE that animals are fed dead animals!!!!!!!!!

[Markov Chaney]

better go vegan then!

[joel the ornery]

Exactly! Bush wants to rid the world of WOMD,why not look at North Korea?

so it is said, so it shall be...

(excerpted from Secretary of State Colin Powell's letter in the New York Times)

"With China, Japan, Russia and South Korea we will continue to tackle the problem of North Korea's dangerous nuclear weapons programs. We seek peace and reconciliation in the Korean peninsula, but we will not reward threats from Pyongyang or provide incentive for blackmail."

[Release Me]

"BREAKING NEWS!!!!!!!!!BSE-Madcow occurs ANYWHERE that animals are fed dead animals!!!!!!!!!"

bgirl will fight anyone over anything

[/quote]

[unjonharley]

Exactly! Bush wants to rid the world of WOMD,why not look at North Korea?

so it is said, so it shall be...

(excerpted from Secretary of State Colin Powell's letter in the New York Times)

"With China, Japan, Russia and South Korea we will continue to tackle the problem of North Korea's dangerous nuclear weapons programs. We seek peace and reconciliation in the Korean peninsula, but we will not reward threats from Pyongyang or provide incentive for blackmail."

Just who do you think is "Colin" Powells puppeteer. He looks very uncomfortable with some ones hand up his ass all the time.

[joel the ornery]

Just who do you think is "Colin" Powells puppeteer. He looks very uncomfortable with some ones hand up his ass all the time.

This comment conjures up an image of former President Clinton with his hand up Madeline Albright's rosebud.... not something that soothes the stomach, do you think.

Actually, that is a question unto itself... do you think?

[bgirl]

No,just dumbass,thinly-veiled, inflammatory , statements.See ,I wasn't fighting,"anyone," as you percieve,merely the limited information put out.That's your point ,Release Me? Small minds try to catagorize people into neat little slots..................without seeming to realize that no one has made them God for a day.Sorry that was rude and narrowminded ,oh well.In other words get off your high horse,what the fuck do you think your little comments are aimed at.......starting a long lasting friendship,I think not.If you stir the pot,you have to stick around and eat the stew you created.

[unjonharley]

Joel, That was sick. I see you think a lot like me

[diane o'thirst]

Oh, boy, name-calling! "Bigoted!" "Empire!" "Valid reasons to hate us!" "Oil and Power!" And a bunch of passages in all-caps, yet (but you forgot to put in the bold HTML tags). You guys sure hit all the bases, didn't you? I'm surprised you didn't call me a Bushie while you were at it. You ought to audition for the Dioxine list, that'll look impressive on your resumés.

Hey, bgirl — my ancestors penned the Constitution and palled around with Jefferson, Ben Franklin and George Washington on a daily basis. Here's your chance to really cut loose and tear into the equivalent of American royalty and my ears aren't even smoking yet. They're going to come and take away your Radical Left union card unless you do better, so give it your best shot.

And Patience: I <b>meant</b> Islamists, <b><i>not</b></i> Muslims. There's a big difference and I'm surprised you haven't taken it on board yet. Hakim Bey is a Muslim. Rumi was a Muslim, and so was Omar Kayyam. Most Arabic-descent people are Muslims. I have a modicum of respect for the culture even if I'd never practice the religion myself.

Bin Laden and Company, OTOH, <b>AREN'T</b> Muslims however much they contend otherwise: they just like to use the terminology to sucker more schills into their little campaign. They regularly break the laws of Jihad to the letter. There were 200 <b>Muslims</b> in a mosque on the 20th floor of one of the towers, at prayer, when the plane hit. None of them survived. Get this, Al Qaeda were even going to bomb Mohammed's tomb at the height of pilgrimage season. They're about as Muslim as Jeffrey Dahmer was an Aztec priest and Torquemada was a Christian.