Don't come to the Thunderdome unless you are willing to pay

Share your pictures and video. Tell us about the sights, sounds, and scents, as well as the rumors and truths found at Burning Man.
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stuart
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Post by stuart » Tue Jun 14, 2005 1:07 pm

asking for some help
I think conceptually what you are trying to do is not a problem but the presentation is fouling you up. It seems to be the order of events and desires.

If your goal is to have a camp where people gender bend then you need to have the initial message people get from your installation set that expectation. The booze message needs to be supressed, secondary.

If someone walks up and the first thing they get from your rig is that it's a bar then an expectation is set.

You almost need to ask the question 'why is there a bar here?' I'm not saying 'don't have a bar.' Just ask yourself how the bar serves the context of your primary goal. If the bar is the primary goal then yeah, it's gonna rub folks the wrong way for you to ask them to tithe.
call me baby

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Hypnobella
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Post by Hypnobella » Fri Sep 07, 2007 6:00 pm

[quote="Nightterror"]I not a fucking sock. I am not trying to stir up anything. I don't give a flying fuck about your dribble of a grade school election. And it is my understanding that Burningman does not run on the fucking barter system.[/quote]

You HAVE seen the movie, right?

"Who runs Bartertown!"

We have a barter system because we are the Thunderdome, duh. We take bribes to get into the dome, booze is not the only bribe we'll take, but it's prefered.

Hundreds of people want to fight every night. The fights are short so more people can fight, and to cut down on injuries. We have every right to accept bribes and run the dome on barter, it goes with the theme. Those kids got a flippant, half true answer. We like good booze. We can be convionced to let you fight if you have something non-alcholic that is super nifty. That's just how it works.

VikingNomad
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Post by VikingNomad » Fri Sep 07, 2007 10:45 pm

From: http://www.burningman.com/preparation/e ... ips07.html

"A Gift Economy Is A State of Mind — OK, let's get this straight. Burning Man's gift economy is often misinterpreted as some sort of ancient, utopian barter system. Um, no. A gift economy doesn't mean you should empty out your junk drawers and hand out cheap trinkets to your fellow burners, hoping for something valuable in exchange. A gift economy simply means that you give something of yourself, whatever you deem that to be. Basically, it's about sharing. You remember how to share, don't you? Gift someone with your time, a spontaneous song, a drink of water, or help out your neighbor if they need assistance with something. For additional info on gifting, read up on the 10 Principles of Burning Man."



Many years ago (90's) Burning Man had an area called "Barter Camp". Like all things at Burning Man if there was a rule or a change, there is usually a darn good reason for it.

Barter Camp became a source of contention and stress. Sometimes, someone would come to Barter Camp for something that they really needed. Let's say someone's only pair of sunglasses broke for example, and they're getting headaches. They went to barter camp and would find someone with a couple of extra pairs up for trade. Depending on who you were trading with, a $5 pair of sunglasses could end up costing you $50 in stuff, and often causing people to sacrifice something they needed just a little less, but still needed, like sand goggles. If you came with a bottle of vodka, and the guy with the extra sunglasses hated vodka, you're screwed.

The gift economy works much better. People may ask around if someone has an extra pair of sunglasses if theirs broke. Someone may gift someone the sunglasses. And, if they gift something back, great. They may ask you what they can do to reciprocate with a gift. If not, Karma tends to work on the playa and someone will often gift or loan you something you need later.

I get the "Barter Town" connection, I've seen all the Mad Max movies. I loved seeing the Thunderdome last year when I watched a few DPW folks settling setup grudges. It was awesome, and a great idea. I didn't stumble upon the camp this year, but I heard you guys were back, and glad to hear so.

I can't really connect with using the 'Barter Town' system at Burning Man though. Basically, if a gift isn't cool or interesting enough, and not booze, or they can't get girls to go battle with in the dome, then someone is excluded. Exclusion and payment / bribes aren't really up there with what I think about in the spirit of Burning Man.

If I take the model of exchanging booze for entry to something on the playa, it can become a real money maker. If I can get 1000 people a day to give me $5 in booze each to get into a camp over 7 days, I can truck out $35,000 in booze. That's a pretty attractive way for any college fraternity to start off the school year!

I'd love to see the Thunderdome back next year. But, I hope you see why you shouldn't be requiring any goods for entry. If you want to keep Barter Town as part of the Thunderdome please make it intangible items like singing a song, telling a great joke, sharing a Burning Man story, a quick massage, juggling, or something similar.

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playasnake
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Post by playasnake » Fri Sep 07, 2007 11:52 pm

Nightterror wrote:I see your point -

Radical Self Reliance = Take advantage of whomever you can
perfect segue into next years theme. The real american dream.
e pluribus unimog

CaptainObvious
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Post by CaptainObvious » Sat Sep 08, 2007 12:30 am

Gee... I was able to fight in Thunderdome my very first year - 2005. All I did was volunteer to be a puller and help out in the Dome, and Lo and Behold, when I asked if I could fight a round, they had no problem. Is it Barter? Maybe, but I also thought it was very cool and FAIR.

I have nothing but props for the people in Death Guild and they really bust their asses to put the TD together every year... If all 40,000 people wanted to fight, how do you choose who gets to? Don't think of it as having to pay, think of it as giving them added incentive to let you play on their jungle gym...
"Well Thank You CAPTAIN OBVIOUS!!!"

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Token
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Post by Token » Sat Sep 08, 2007 5:11 pm

I remember Wednesday night AJ was on the bullhorn trying to get folks lined up for fights. I did not see no bribes going down, just a willing victim (or partner) and cajones were required.

Alas, not to many of those out there this year with all the hippies n ravers.

T

Stryder
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Post by Stryder » Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:48 pm

I went in and fought in the dome for the asking, but when the fight was over they wouldn't let me out of the harness. They said I had to barter something before they'd let me loose.
I was by myself, so I started begging the spectators to bribe these people so they'd let me go. They just started screaming FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT, so I had to keep fighting.
After about 15 rounds I decided to just let a guy knock me out so I could be let out of the harness!
Worst night of my life. I hate Thunderdome.
I never did get my underwear back...
"Look, good against remotes is one thing. Good against the living, that's something else."

Lord Of Ruin
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Post by Lord Of Ruin » Tue Sep 25, 2007 5:43 pm

[quote="Nightterror"]It goes against what burningman is to me. I let people look at my art which takes months to prepare without asking for anything in exchange. I prefer to say "yes" you may or "no" you may not.


what are YOU bringing to the party? What are YOU adding to the experiance?

Why must YOU get something in return - thats what the real world is for.[/quote]

I respectfully disagree with you. You are stating what YOU think is the way things should run, according to your ethos.

Now, what I saw a lot of were experience Burners that were friendly in a variety of theme and non-theme camps. Since I was a first-timer with very experienced burners, I felt a bit like I didn't have much to offer other than my sterling wit.

Soooooo...in lieu of trinket giftiing, as I visited around I had both my personal drink/mug of whatever I was consuming, but I also had a big jug of chilled alcoholic shot type beverage. As I stood chatting someone up after a few second over a shared laugh I'd say "Hey...want a quick shot of something cold and fruity?" Everyone was delighted at the small gesture and I got lots of invites later to "come on back at such and such time, we're doing this and you'll love it!"

Now, compare that to the groups of people that would walk down "our street" (Coral Reef) each morning and stop at the edge of camp. Campmates and I would be recuperating in chairs, drinking and such and the passersby would stop, say Hi and something like "Hey, are you serving food? No? Do you know where the nearest food or alcohol camp is?"

Now, two of these people were very cute women, who were doing the talking for their male entourage.

This REALLY pissed me off for some reason, but we just said a casual "Nope, sorry...." and waved them on.

Now, that pissed me off that they not only were simply taking from people, but they literally weren't adding even so much as a kind word or a joke.

So I could easily see someone that is affiliated with an attraction like Thunderdome getting a bit tired of knuckleheads coming up with the "hey, entertain me for free NOW, dammit! I paid my fee!" vibe. Not saying your two were doing that, but I CAN see how that would color it.

I personally think BM did a huge disservice by putting in explicit statements on the Survival guide, brochures,e tc that it's about radical self0-reliance, but if you want or need something, just ASK.

Too many people have taken this as a sign of a "serve me" culture...especially when tickets are going up toward the $300 mark.

Just my 2 rupees worth.

LoR
The fox provides for himself, but God provides for the lion - W. Blake (attribution corrected)

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Post by Toolmaker » Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:19 pm

Stryder wrote:I went in and fought in the dome for the asking, but when the fight was over they wouldn't let me out of the harness. They said I had to barter something before they'd let me loose.
I was by myself, so I started begging the spectators to bribe these people so they'd let me go. They just started screaming FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT, so I had to keep fighting.
After about 15 rounds I decided to just let a guy knock me out so I could be let out of the harness!
Worst night of my life. I hate Thunderdome.
I never did get my underwear back...
This isn't too fuckin cool. I hope you're joking about being held hostage for 15 rounds until you were knocked out.

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Post by saintfuktad » Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:17 am

I suppose I should count myself lucky that both me and my friend got to fight for no quid pro quo whatsoever, with almost no wait (on the night of the burn).

Incidentally our wait was so short that our other friends got back too late and so missed it and didn't video the bout. I've been checking YouTube in case someone out there recorded, it but so far no luck. Here's hoping someone here filmed it but hasn't published.

The fight was on the night of the (second) burn (afterwards), right before the suspension fight. One white guy with medium-large build, no shirt; one darkie with lesser build in just black underwear with the words STFU Katielady on the butt. Somewhat vicious.

If you have it, or know someone who does, I'd love you forever.

Cheers.
by St. Fuktad

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Ugly Dougly
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Post by Ugly Dougly » Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:16 am

If camps are not free to make their own rules, then where are we really?

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Post by madmatt » Mon Oct 01, 2007 12:05 pm

CaptainObvious wrote:Gee... I was able to fight in Thunderdome my very first year - 2005. All I did was volunteer to be a puller and help out in the Dome, and Lo and Behold, when I asked if I could fight a round, they had no problem. Is it Barter?
"If you've nothing to trade, you've no business in Bartertown."

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Satire

Post by Stryder » Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:56 pm

I was being satirical. I have a couple of really good friends that are part of Death Guild.
I've hung out there a couple of evenings, and they are really great people, and extremely smart, polite, and generous with those they know. I have not met ALL of them, but the ones I did were outstanding individuals. The gruff exterior keeps the riff-raff away.
Toolmaker wrote:
Stryder wrote:I went in and fought in the dome for the asking, but when the fight was over they wouldn't let me out of the harness. They said I had to barter something before they'd let me loose.
I was by myself, so I started begging the spectators to bribe these people so they'd let me go. They just started screaming FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT, so I had to keep fighting.
After about 15 rounds I decided to just let a guy knock me out so I could be let out of the harness!
Worst night of my life. I hate Thunderdome.
I never did get my underwear back...
This isn't too fuckin cool. I hope you're joking about being held hostage for 15 rounds until you were knocked out.
"Look, good against remotes is one thing. Good against the living, that's something else."

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Post by mdmf007 » Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:15 pm

I have never had a problem at DeathGuild - This year I got to volunteer as a medic with them, some of the funnest work at BM.

Tons of people fight for free - I dont run the place, but am standing right there. Many times boozeahol will grease the wheels and get you in front of the line quicker -

and I did see a bunch of assholes bounced. Your not paying for a service or at a county public building getting a tax based service. These guys drag hundreds of tons of gear into the desert, and set it up for your enjoyment and theirs. There is no reason in the world they should have to take your shit.

dont like the way DeathGuild does their shit - dont come. Its a big playa.

later

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Kinetik V
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Post by Kinetik V » Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:35 pm

Whoa...we've got a bogus medic and a bogus Black Rock Ranger on the boards lately? Interesting.
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misfit
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Post by misfit » Tue Oct 02, 2007 3:30 pm

>>>>>Now come on, are you a real medic or just pretending<<<<<

any proof Taoseno, i'd like to hear it.?......
Be happy while you're living, For you're a long time dead.

eplaya mess up
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Post by eplaya mess up » Tue Oct 02, 2007 5:12 pm

medic is a pretty loosely used term on playa. all it takes to be a medic is a cpr card. bls service is all that burningman performs. REMSA are the real medics doing als service on playa.

after the lampman tragedy bmorg checks and keeps track real tight of who does what on playa.

if they are with REMSA that would be a problem.

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Jordan 10-E
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Post by Jordan 10-E » Tue Oct 02, 2007 7:57 pm

Countless camps haul tons of shit out to the playa for our enjoyment, but I don't hear them asking for bribes. Pretty lame excuse to me no matter how you slice it.

Next year our camp is going to require a fee of sex, money, booze, drugs, water, or gasoline to ever even get a chance to see what we've got to "share". I like that idea. At least I won't be broke when I go home.

Hey the thunderdome idea is cool and all but you take that movie so seriously that you use it as a model to justify paying your camp expenses and pleasures? Kinda pathetic.

So what if there are yahoos or lots of people who want to join in, requiring a bribe is just bad taste (at least) when every other person out there is giving of themselves (and their camp) freely. These excuses are lame.

As for barter bars. The pure idea behind giving alcohol to the bar is not to bribe them but to allow them to continue SHARING with other people, not for personal or camp gain. BTW, last time I checked Thumder Dome wasn't running a bar.
10E

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Jordan 10-E
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Post by Jordan 10-E » Tue Oct 02, 2007 8:05 pm

Phreddiva wrote:
dragonfly Jafe wrote:
Nightterror wrote:It goes against what burningman is to me. I let people look at my art which takes months to prepare without asking for anything in exchange. I prefer to say "yes" you may or "no" you may not.
Then don't go to Thunderdome. Or build your own dome, and let people fight in it for free.

I have never heard of "paying" to fight in Thunderdome, but I have been sometimes turned away. There are times when it is closed, when they are doing private fights, women only, whatever - it is their attraction. As long as they do not violate any actual "rules" (of which there are few), they can do what they want.

Barter is a well established principal at Burningman. Bars do it all the time. Just because they charge YOU barter, and not the person next to you, doesn't mean they are singling you out - quite the opposite, they are singling the other people out for "free" admission. This is backed up by the bit about bringing a Woman along to get in free (another common tactic, as there are far more single men that want to get in). This is nothing more than an attempt to limit the number of people that want into a popular attraction...

...and static Art is different from a participatory theme camp (thanks for bringing your Art, btw). Only 2 persons can "play" in Thunderdome at once, and it takes several people to "run" thunderdome. Thousands of persons could conceivably look at a static art piece at the same time w/o issues, and no one is required to be there to hold their hands. Try running a highly popular theme camp with a particpatory element that can only handle 2 people at a time, and you might see things differently....

Remember - this is a vacation for the folks who run Thunderdome, they are doing this as a favor to you. They owe you NOTHING.

Hint: friends of the thunderdome people don't have to pay to fight...
Wow, apparently we've created quite a stir without knowing it.
Thanks for this response - I've only read the first page of the... ELEVEN (Christ!!!) pages, but this answer comes closest to embodying what I would have said. Don't like it? Don't come. Burning Man isn't about everybody adhering to what one person's idea of Burning Man should be. If there are a lot of people signing up to fight, good scotch will go a long way to getting you to the front of that line. It's one thing to look at art. It's another thing to ask the artist for a paintbrush, paint, and free reign on their canvas.
Oh please!
10E

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Jordan 10-E
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Post by Jordan 10-E » Tue Oct 02, 2007 8:13 pm

Clownsuit wrote:What we need to do is hire a bunch of armed security guys to walk around making sure that everyone follows the rules. We can give them all uniforms and special insignia so we know who they are. Then we can hire people to figure out the rules, and hold elections to see who gets the chance to make the decisions. Then, we can form a court system so if a rule is broken we can take the offender to court to figure out his punishment. Then again, if we do that we need to provide the Black Rock City jail to hold them until trial, and hire judges. Of course, all this will need a beaurocracy to support it, so we'll need some sort of central, permanent structure.

Oh wait...this is Burning Man. Maybe we should all just fucking deal with it. If you don't like how you're treated at a camp, then don't go back, and tell all your friends they're assholes.

Christ, half the people on this board seem to want Crossing Guards at every BRC intersection.

Come to the Guns and Dope Party camp and I'll give y'all an honorary nomination for the unneeded city job of your choice.
Actually what would be nice is if people or camps could police themselves and not look for loopholes so they can demand items from people to play.
10E

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Burner till death
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Post by Burner till death » Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:50 pm

2007 was my first year and I finally got my own computer so I thought i would get my own account on eplaya
thunderdome was one of the most awesome experiences i got to do. i dont know what the beef with bribing them is but they let me right in i fought and i got unchained and went back to spectator mode. my ass would hurt casue i would sit on the bars every night and watch fights for hours. the opra singer was awesome as well. i cant speak italian but it was still a great touch.
i cant wait for 2008 the theme seems kind of hokey but maybe it will turn out better than everyone thinks.

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Post by K-mom » Sun Oct 07, 2007 7:17 pm

You want to talk about expectations - You expect something in return for your drink. I would walk away every time from an establishment such as yours. Barter is the exchange of one value for the other without the use of money. I find no value in acting like a monkey for your entertainment in exchange for shit booze. I can do that in the real world.

Wow please tell me what establishments you frequent, that's a great deal!
You call it malt liquor, I call it breakfast.

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Post by Ugly Dougly » Mon Oct 08, 2007 10:55 am

Hypnobella wrote:You HAVE seen the movie, right?
:)

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Ugly Dougly
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Post by Ugly Dougly » Mon Oct 08, 2007 10:56 am

:?:

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Post by spidermonkey » Tue Oct 09, 2007 1:43 am

such hostility and bickering? fits into the american dream theme eh?

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Post by Ugly Dougly » Tue Oct 09, 2007 9:43 am

Another thing I hate is once you get inside the Thunderdome, some dickwad with a boffer keeps whacking you. Not fair!

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deathguild/thunderdome medics

Post by lothos 1162 » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:00 pm

Ok folks as I was the one coordinating the medics for deathguild,all medics working the dome worked for ESD(emergecy services)we had EMT's and RN's working all fights,as for the guy going 15 rounds and getting knocked out,where was he again,cause I was at all the fights every night....oh thats right thats my camp.Lothos

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Re: deathguild/thunderdome medics

Post by capjbadger » Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:16 pm

lothos 1162 wrote:Ok folks as I was the one coordinating the medics for deathguild,all medics working the dome worked for ESD(emergecy services)we had EMT's and RN's working all fights,as for the guy going 15 rounds and getting knocked out,where was he again,cause I was at all the fights every night....oh thats right thats my camp.Lothos
Ahhh... now why'd you have to go and ruin a perfectly good rumor? ;) Now we have to make some more... :lol:

Badger
Arrrggg!! Avast ye fucking fluffy bunny shirtcockers! Haul your drunken hairy fat ass out of our sight or prepare to receive a hot buttered hedgehog fired up your aft quarters!

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Post by mdmf007 » Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:36 pm

I dont think its possible to go 15 rounds either. I fight three and I am spent, and I consider myself in good shape, not ironman shape, but good.

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Re: deathguild/thunderdome medics

Post by Stryder » Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:39 pm

I wrote a fictional, joking story claiming to have been held hostage 15 rounds for booze in Thunderdome. It isn't true.
People will believe anything, especially if it fits neatly into their negative stereotype of someone else.

The Deathguild folks are some of the finest people I have ever met on the playa.


lothos 1162 wrote:,as for the guy going 15 rounds and getting knocked out,where was he again,cause I was at all the fights every night....oh thats right thats my camp.Lothos
"Look, good against remotes is one thing. Good against the living, that's something else."

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