Will/has Paul torn us apart?

[spectabillis]

Does that mean I should come to your house and light your mailbox?

yeah thats relevant.

[Stryder]

It's an analogy. But I'll try and slow it down for you.
Addis has a problem with BM. So rather than trying to come up with some clever, creative way of espousing HIS views about how things should be run, he destroys something. He destroys something that has meaning for people he has never met, but feels he can judge. (You can read his own words if you don't believe me...)
So following his example, next year I'll burn down Center Camp because I don't like coffee sales, or torch an ice stand, because it's commerce, and I don't think that is really 'burny'. Or lob a Molatov into a Pershing County Sheriffs' vehicle, cuz hell, NOBODY likes them, too many rules!!!! I'll just destroy something, because it is so much easier than doing something positive to make a difference.
(This is just my opinion here SB, so you can quite responding to everything I say. Addis is a stupid, worthless bastard. He is SO uncreative, that his one man show is a parody of Hunter S. Thompsons' life. The guy can't even come up with HIS OWN material!
So if I say Addis is full of shit, a misanthropic retard, and not worth spit, that's just MY opinion. You may feel differently. But I promise you I will NOT set your house on fire because you disagree with me.)

Does that mean I should come to your house and light your mailbox?

yeah thats relevant.

[skygod]

[quote="spectabillisbut what about the joy of the endless number of people who put their heart and soul into burningman, only to see what they loved about it go away?
i would hope its important to understand WHY these things happen before you pass judgement on EVERYTHING.[/quote]

You put your finger on it SB. But you put your hopes into what you love
It's all going to burn anyway, your ten principles too.
But at least we can get together and make something new every year
If we start burning each other's stuff we won't even have that.

[spectabillis]

It's an analogy. But I'll try and slow it down for you.-

i understood, but its a bad analogy without much relevance.

your ten principles too....But at least we can get together and make something new every year If we start burning each other's stuff we won't even have that.

i was somewhat against them ever being explicit because of what has now happened, similar to the man becomming a cult icon the ten principals have become treated by many as cult scripture. they are not my ten principals in that sense, its better served as just development guidelines in creating a certain environment with the open flexibility to evolve.

but jesus-fucking-christ people.. when did i EVER say that i supported paul addis burning the man? how does that infer i support people commiting widescale acts of arson? i will repeat myself, yet again...

i am not saying you have to agree or not with what happened, but i would hope its important to understand WHY these things happen before you pass judgement on EVERYTHING.

and you are still showing why. not that you would ever make the attempt to learn in the vain hope that things can be better addressed? no, thats aparantly asking too much. its obviously much more important to feel some degree of indignation and hate, of feeling justified in applying resentments, of... continuing down the path that led to things like this.

[Toolmaker]

but jesus-fucking-christ people.. when did i EVER say that i supported paul addis burning the man? how does that infer i support people commiting widescale acts of arson? i will repeat myself, yet again...

I didn't see it once.. closest you came to that was supporting a lesser sentence for what he did. Also a desire not to see a "cummunal beating" was mentioned a few times.

thank you very much for posting that information...

... because it makes it much more easy for me to write them for supporting the least sentance possible. those others who have endlessly tried to hold or fight for certain beliefs, who have worked hard in various means to create an open and expressive environment that is self and community empowered, i encourage them to do the same.

much of the results of the crime were unfortunate. but the cliche of what burning the man has come to represent combined with the push of a sanctioned theme has isolated and driven away many of the prime movers and their efforts. please, let something positive come from this rather than a sense of community beating by those that hate.

But seriously Spec.. Did you expect most people to accept what he did laying down? Did you really think he wouldn't get a communal beating. I know you don't support arson. I know you don't think what he did was acceptable. But when folks are emotional so soon after BM they may see any compassion for paul in any way shape or form as support for his actions. This is why I can have no compassion or sympathy for some folks. Hes just REALLY lucky he is not in Gitmo right now. If I were some wacky person with a political pro-nwo agenda his ass would be ALL over the news. Maybe he should thank the two Simpsons for getting him OUT of the limelight.

[spectabillis]

[I know you don't think what he did was acceptable. But when folks are emotional so soon after BM they may see any compassion for paul in any way shape or form as support for his actions.

honestly? yes, i hoped people could rise above and its my misplaced faith in thinking thats still possible. even in past years of the eplaya people would have put far more weight into approaching things from different perspectives with the intention of learning.

proves my point on how much things have changed, and yet others still say change has been for the better?

its not compassion, its thinking, and burningman has become more similar to the default world of ignornace than separate. its so bad that it seems impossible to correct and yet another reason for the disparity between veteran burners and the present lynch-mob population. the later just seem prone to dismiss it all and cry veterans are just being 'jaded.'

all of this means the trend is going to continue.

[Bob]

Does that mean I should come to your house and light your mailbox?

No, it would be more analogous to start a creosote fire in his chimney. It'll just burn his chimney, not the whole building. I'm almost sure of it. Just like I'm sure nobody's going to be inside at the time. Nobody would be in danger at all.


ObTopic -- seriously -- I beg to disagree, Stryder. Nobody can prove what the perp has done other than commit arson.

[BigCock]

i have read different variations of the change argument but rarely do people acknowledge that change doesnt imply its good. due to population growth and turnover many of the original things that were of influence and value have dissolved into benign forms of entertainment. a party, a camping trip to have fun, or a place to feel superficial empowerment just from buying a ticket. paul addis was not the first person to apply the disneyland reference to burningman.

Oh come on, as if the burn was some noble pursuit back in the day. The first BM flyer I saw - '94 - said something like: it's an art festival, it's a camping trip, it's blah blah blah, but most of all, IT'S A GREAT PARTY! You could watch topless chicks riding around on the hood of someone's car. Woo hoo! The big event after the burn was the FUCK SHIT UP! party where you whack a hunk of metal as hard as you could clang clang clang until you finally got tired and went away. It was a lot of fun, actually, but we ain't lost much in the way of "original value."

Addis is just a vandal. He can say he was trying to get back to the original spirit of the burn - FUCK SHIT UP! But vandalism is about the shallowist and most selfish form of action there is. I like some of the creative alternatives that have been posted, but just torching the man? BO ring. One liner. Not impressed.

[spectabillis]

well big cock, i guess myself and the many others who felt that way were all just...



.. must have been the drugs. nope, nothing more. not even diverse and loose community effort, commerce everywhere, and everyone just sat around and watched.

[BigCock]

And the people that went for the first time in 2007 didn't find the lack of commerce, the community, the freedom, the radical expression completely mindblowing? My point is not that it sucked then and it's better now. My point is that there was good and bad then as now. It's what you make of it. The genuinely jaded should spend some time with newbies who can remind them what it was like. An anecdote - there was a theme camp that hosted an ongoing debate between the jaded and the starry-eyed - in '97. Another: the person that brought me to my first burn in 95 had been in 93 and 4. She complained the whole way up in the car that the event had gotten too commercial, it wasn't what it used to be, had lost the old ................

And the other point was that I simply do not believe Addis acted out of concern for the slipping ethics and rising commercialization of the event. That's just rationalization.

[AntiM]

And the other point was that I simply do not believe Addis acted out of concern for the slipping ethics and rising commercialization of the event. That's just rationalization.

Radical Self-interest?

[spectabillis]

big cock - well i understand where you are comming from, but you definately came off differently with the previous post that focused on the party side of burningman.

anyone can come up with examples of things that have changed for better or worse, i am talking overall. many things of value are still there despite the changes over time but its also a continuing process of change away from them. so a person back in the 90's who thinks it changed from their first year is going to be similar to someone who started five years ago looking at it today.

and trying to define the 'true' motivations of paul addis is pure conjecture in any direction other than what he says - fortunately we cant read the guys mind.

[skygod]

and trying to define the 'true' motivations of paul addis is pure conjecture in any direction other than what he says - fortunately we cant read the guys mind.

You can't judge a person by what they think, only by what they do.
When they fight you can see them better.

[spectabillis]

in my current state of insomnia i remember being mesmerized by an eagle fighting a snake on the side of a mountain road. a black cadillac escalade tears around the corner and tramples them both as it huffs against the hills climb, black feathers explode across a chrome grill with a soft thump and the crunch of the snake under those monsterous tires.


yeah.. there's an american dream, look who wins that fight.

[skygod]

Thnx SB. I'll be thinking about that today.

[Stryder]

That's not even relevant...

in my current state of insomnia i remember being mesmerized by an eagle fighting a snake on the side of a mountain road. a black cadillac escalade tears around the corner and tramples them both as it huffs against the hills climb, black feathers explode across a chrome grill with a soft thump and the crunch of the snake under those monsterous tires.


yeah.. there's an american dream, look who wins that fight.

[spectabillis]

no stryder, and it wasnt meant to be.

[Stryder]

no stryder, and it wasnt meant to be.

Okay.

[EB]

...a black cadillac escalade tears around the corner and tramples them both...

COMMERCE!!!

[spectabillis]

hey man, i was being green and all that shit.. i ate that bird and the snake is a new belt.

[Badger]

Will/has Paul torn us apart?

Not likely. Hell, not even.

posted on another board BTW...

Sometimes one's opinion can make for an interesting exchange of ideas. Whether you subscribe to one or the other (or neither) sometimes all it takes is for a single person to cover all the bases of discussion. Here's a piece that I'm finding more interesting after a second and likely a third reading.


The guy covers all the bases and even though I think Addis remains an ass of the highest order the article makes some interesting observations. Hell, you might almost say that he pulls the discussion out of the mire of shit the the topic has been mired in these past weeks.

Have a look.


www.realitysandwich.com/burning_men

[pinemom]

...hehehe...your such a bad little fishy....hehehe

[skygod]

"It is dissappointing to arrive. To the extent we idealize a place, we impoverish it, reducng reality to a list of shortcomings. If i ever reached Shambala, I'd probably be as dissappointed as the Spaniards."
--From Patrick Symmes search for Shambala and article "Kingdom of the Lotus" (10/07 issue Outside Magazine)

Did Paul idealize BM too much? Are we? Is there some other reality? waiting?

[spectabillis]

Did Paul idealize BM too much? Are we?

yes, if its a cult, and i am almost convinced it is.

[Alchemy]

Zero to Hero in the blink of a moon..
Two hours before Dork Maul did the feral and possibly the most interesting thing to occur at BM 07...
The idiot created another crack assed ( oh but he's bi-polar..does that make him a bi-polar-roid?) (yes! I beleive sooooo!)
chaos moment in a series of Unplaya like expectation dashing by screaming jibberish at me not 15 minutes after entery..seperating me from my mates who were the car a head of me -and causing hours of "Where the fuck ARE THEY' anxt -as Burning Manic..popped and clicked his ass in front of my jeep to jot down pertainent info and report me to THE RANGERS for prompt removal from the event!
At first I thought he was just dickin around..you know prank ass bs..
but then he seemed like some zellot retard who had wayyyyyyyyy to many nostril cocktails...I desided to forgo making him into a " SPEED BUMP" and
after polite fuck yous found some rangers..got a hug FINALLY AND a much needed and very under practiced "Welcome Home!"
Then I ratted his ass out and his location..( he could be trouble..)
Then after drinks with the next door camp I grabbed a fist full of problem solvers hell bent on observing and correcting such shananigans...
the final and third attempt corner and capture this loose cog
presented it self as upon return to the camp and the cocktailin..
Paul shows up to bait us with his sinserity and show of his prowness as a skilled kabuki clown..in discuise!
we shoulda bagged his crazy ass but we were fascinated and then provoked to run crazy outta our camp as his rap was lame and we couldnt care less...
Then the FUCKER burns the man..
!
INSTANT fucking respect.
Crazy shit does and should happen at BURNINGMAN!!
it was gonna happen sooner or later..
it will probably happen again some day
The draw back was the four days without the man
and all those fucked up lights at night on the Playa
very disorienting..defined the burn over the concocted but well intended
GREEN MAN.
So I missed the Man..I have a relationship to his presence.
Its so comforting and it fires me UP!
But how is what Dark-th Pauls action
so much worse than last years obscuring of the man from the knees down-and smothered in " HEY LOOK AT ALL THE EXPENSIVE FIREWORKS WE BOUGHT TO IMPRESS YOU AND THE MEDIA!!" pyrotechnics..that he was tethered to until saturday . Dwarfed by all the surrounding garrish and austintatious art cars and political pieces..He finally is raised from off his knees...then dissapears into a wall of whoppitity doo fire works that ( in my silly lil opinion-cheapens the event.straying it from its purity and original halmarks of flamable material-) and engulfs him in a wall of black smoke as unexploded duds finally after missing their que-shoot off like projectile missles into the surrounding back quarter of the crowd-embers from the casings flutter down like firey snow flakes on top of the heads of the back participants..now running over each other to avoid being hit by friendly fire or to be randomly burned by falling debris...handicapped front row seaters..back wheeling rediculously against the crowd-catching on fire while fleeing passers by slap them out with out stopping in the moment of panic.
Yeah THAT was a much more scandalous burn to be reckoned with..
What Paul did...
WELL HEY!! I tried to stop HIM!!
but Thats Burningman..
some make great ART
Some talk to God..
Some make babies
some die in rediculous and horribly sad situations..
some get married
some loose limbs
some get raped
some dont
you get gifts
you loose your mind
you learn to let go and are changed by it all
No mater how sucky and unpreped or how dilluted the event..
there is miricles and messages in the moments.
And we all are inspired
.
Thank you Paul
Thank you Larry
Thank you crazy bitches..
Now get off the E-playa you lazy hippie fucks and MAKE something!!
Earn your Burn you Hippies!
Paul did.
In fact this year-the bitch OWNED your Burn!

[Ugly Dougly]

I wonder why it should be so easy to approach the Man with a source of fire. Was someone on the wrong drugs at the wrong moment?

Vigilance, my friends, that is the watchword!

[bradtem]

I think one of the reasons for conflict around this is that there is a sizable contingent of people who approve of the symbolism of what the arsonist did (and a sizable contingent who don't) but there are only a very few who actually would bless the means by which he expressed that view.

It means holding two somewhat contradictory thoughts. Approving the message but not the act. Approving burning what the man stands for but strongly disapproving burning somebody else's hard work, especially in a structure that usually has people in it.

This is further confused by the fact that one can't simply say, "He should have just told us what he thought about what the man has come to stand for, and why it needs to be brought down, rather than physically bringing it down" because clearly people have been saying it for years but nobody caused nearly this much debate.

So for those who have some sympathy for the symbolism -- which may even include folks like Larry, who says he and the others laughed when they saw it -- but hate the method, there will never be an unambiguous opinion about this act.

----------------------

As for why somebody can approach the Man with something to start a fire -- I hope that's the way it should be. We don't want Burning Man to be some sort of highly-policed area, where suspicious looking people are searched or under surveillance around the Man or anywhere. We would much rather have a community without that. I believe this is a one-time action that requires no bump in security. The security that has been present has mostly been to watch for people doing things unsafe to themselves, limit the number of people climbing the pyramid steps, etc. and perhaps to watch for drunk people who might do reckless vandalism.

The amount of security needed to stop a sober, determined, smart vandal is a level I would not want to see in BRC, and it would diminish it. It would be a disturbing irony if the arson led to the Man being something even more separated from the community by a wall of security, which was presumably part of the intended message of the arson.

[BAS]

Well said!


B.

[Troy Van Berry]

'96 was our first burn, so it holds some cool memories. My honey had a problem with contacts and didn't bring her glasses, so the chaos of the unorganized BRC and being in a new place with a person who could barely find her way around was insane. I still like to look at the pics of that chaotic camping arrangement. I was so afraid we would get seperated at the burn and it would take hours to find her and our humble camp. Sometimes I wish the designers would shake up the city with a new map that would challenge even the experienced into a new way of looking at the city. I haven't been for 3 years( 2 new kids!) after 8 years in a row. When I do come back(mayby '08?) it would be fun to be disoriented again like '96 was. There was a certian terror in the hunt that was missed once the city became so familiar. This kind of thing could shake things up again,and challenge the perceptions of what BRC "is" to the core. Brings a new meaning to the phrase "radical self relliance", when you gotta learn your bearings anew again.

On another note the "arsonass" will no doubt regret his statement, if he allready doesn't ($$$$$ & lllllll's).