This theme is why I won't go next year

dr.placebo · Post by **dr.placebo** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 6:15 pm

AntiM, your post just made my day!

FUCK THE THEME! GO HAVE FUN!

ravenluv · Post by **ravenluv** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 11:16 pm

i concur!!

however...i do worry about politics dominating the art. did you see the 'bush as the devil' display in 2004? mesmerizing...chilling....and something i could only see for ten minutes (if that) before i realized that it was completely antithetical to why i made such an effort to be there.

with all due respect, when you're coming in from the midwest, or anywhere else that isn't a one day drive to brc, it's more than a dusty camping trip. it's a major journey. i think there is a fear out there (and in here) that once there we will be confronted with many displays like the one i've described. politicized art is hardly different than advertising.

it'd be much easier to avoid such a possibility, or allay those fears, if it were called something like 'dreaming of a better world', or 'the dream', or 'manifesting destiny' or anything else that doesn't tie it to a specific nation, culture and political system.

just sayin....

if the theme is so unimportant, then why not just change it and make a lot of people feel more at ease? what is so important about keeping that word 'american' in there?

Post by **AntiM** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 4:38 am

Do read up on "Manifest Destiny" before using the two words together. Yes, I know, you said "manifesting destiny" but the words put a chill down my spine. Manifest Destiny was a 19th century idea that we, the white Americans, were destined to rule the continent and have no outside interference from Europe. Manifest Destiny excused the massacres, relocations and the reservations, land grabs and war.

May as well call the event "Trail of Tears."

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 12:16 pm

Wasn't Manifest Destiny as a policy by Jacksonian-type Democrats way more concerned with checking Mexico & British Canada politically & economically than subduing native Americans?

Fifty-Four Forty or Fight!
Flame Canada!

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:23 pm

Post by **AntiM** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 3:26 pm

Bob wrote:Wasn't Manifest Destiny as a policy by Jacksonian-type Democrats way more concerned with checking Mexico & British Canada politically & economically than subduing native Americans?

Fifty-Four Forty or Fight!
Flame Canada!

Originally, yes, but it grew into a multi-headed beast. All depends on which revisionist history you're reading.

dj_john69 · Post by **dj_john69** » Sun Sep 09, 2007 8:33 pm

ALL the themes have been fucking lame bullshit since they started them.

Bring back the old days of NO THEME !!!

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Sun Sep 09, 2007 9:22 pm

ALL the themes have been fucking lame bullshit since they started them.

I'd argue that point.

Though unofficial I think 1993's theme was the best of all the burns - evah.

"Ammo!"

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 11:45 am

At the Very First Burn on the beach, you can be assured that NO ONE was reminiscing about how previous burns were so much better...

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 9:05 pm

But it was so derivative of truly anarchic piles of bonfire driftwood.

COPPERFISH · Post by **COPPERFISH** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 3:04 pm

AntiM wrote:Do read up on "Manifest Destiny" before using the two words together. Yes, I know, you said "manifesting destiny" but the words put a chill down my spine. Manifest Destiny was a 19th century idea that we, the white Americans, were destined to rule the continent and have no outside interference from Europe. Manifest Destiny excused the massacres, relocations and the reservations, land grabs and war.

May as well call the event "Trail of Tears."

the words Manifest Destiny my have been coined in the 19th century to rationalize the above, but you can also find roots to conceptual manifest destinies in other cultures and societies.

Jewish culture has a deeply rooted concept of a manifest destiny (which includes the struggles and the future of being Chosen),

Black American culture draws upon that tradition: an oppressed people destined for Salvation.

In terms of white American culture - while it was used as the rationalization for the theft, rape, murder, torture and pillaging of nearly every piece of land and body, it was born out of the escape of an oppressive government and religion. Again the concept that having struggled and been oppressed entitles one better future, a future mandated by the Divine.

Manifest Destiny is an archetype.

I would say the concept of the, or an American Dream is definitely born out of the concept of Manifest Destiny.

serafaery · Post by **serafaery** » Wed Sep 19, 2007 2:42 pm

ravenluv wrote:...i do worry about politics dominating the art. did you see the 'bush as the devil' display in 2004? mesmerizing...chilling....and something i could only see for ten minutes (if that) before i realized that it was completely antithetical to why i made such an effort to be there.

Yes, this is my worry, too. It's true that the theme can be interpreted in infinite ways, but most likely it's going to be something obviously American to go with the title, and that will come off as either patriotic or anti-patriotic, and I'm just so not interested. Steven Colbert will probably come out and broadcast from Center Camp or some shit.

I cherish Burning Man for its radical self expression, not its radical theme expression.

skygod · Post by **skygod** » Wed Sep 19, 2007 6:56 pm

serafaery wrote: It's true that the theme can be interpreted in infinite ways, but most likely it's going to be something obviously American to go with the title, and that will come off as either patriotic or anti-patriotic, and I'm just so not interested.

I know what you mean, it's a dead horse. To not argue and make art about our country's place in the world seems kinda irresponsible though.

ravenluv · Post by **ravenluv** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 7:13 pm

AntiM wrote:Do read up on "Manifest Destiny" before using the two words together. Yes, I know, you said "manifesting destiny" but the words put a chill down my spine. Manifest Destiny was a 19th century idea that we, the white Americans, were destined to rule the continent and have no outside interference from Europe. Manifest Destiny excused the massacres, relocations and the reservations, land grabs and war.

May as well call the event "Trail of Tears."

That chill you felt, I can assure you, is much like the chill many have felt upon hearing what next year's theme is supposed to be.

As you pointed out, I added the 'ing' to Manifest. I knew that "Manifest Destiny" would bring on bad connotations. Plus, I wouldn't begin to think of laying a phrase of such specific nationality onto the event. Hence, I altered it a bit.

I've suggested elsewhere that doing something similar for the 2008 theme, perhaps renaming it something like "America's Dream's", or "America Dreams", or even "American Dreams" would be something of an improvement. The term "American Dream" is every bit as loaded with connotations - both good and ugly - as is "Manifest Destiny".

If you did some checking around, you'd find a sizable number of people who don't think "Manifest Destiny" was a bad thing.

That being said, I wasn't particulary serious about "Manifesting Destiny" as a theme. Nonetheless, it was at least tied to Burning Man in that it was an homage to the guy who stood at the edge of the man's embers in 2005 proclaiming loudly that we should "Manifest and behold!"

"Manifesting Destiny" has a meaning that is divorced from any nationality, even though it appears at first glance to be specifically American. People throughout history, in all nations, whether 'allowed' to or not, have been manifesting their destinies. The American Dream, whatever it is, has been around as a phrase (according to one account) for less than a hundred years, and at most a couple of hundred years. In my view, "Manifesting Destiny" is a more ancient and inclusive phrase.

It wasn't the proclamation of "Manifest Destiny" that ruined lives and destroyed cultures. It was the American government that did it, on behalf of and with the full cooperation of Americans who felt that realizing the American Dream (or whatever it was called back then) depended on the westward expansion. And they were right. What many people call 'the American Dream' often comes back to 'economic opportunity', which in turn depends on the wealth of the nation (especially the wealth of its land). This nation wouldn't be as wealthy if the westward expansion hadn't taken place.

"Manifest Destiny" was a policy written into law in order to serve the interests of a nation. As such, your justified revulsion to the carnage created on behalf of Manifest Destiny must also be leveled at the nation which chose to manifest its destiny with such shameless conceit and violence.

Next year's theme is named after a nation that has used, and is still using, laws and policies to justify its violent actions (which are always carried out for the 'greater good'). That's why some people have felt the same chill that you did, just for a different phrase.

I'm glad you felt it. Perhaps you have a better idea now of what some of the thematic nay-sayers are feeling.

We've been told that next year's theme is supposed to inspire us to dream of what the American Dream could be for the future. So, why not just say the same about "Manifest Destiny"? Rather that being revolted, why not just dream up what you think the future of Manifest Destiny should be?

In essence, we're being told: "Don't focus heavily on what the phrase traditionally meant, or means now - just dream up some new meaning for it." That argument could be made for any politically charged phrase.

I believe that if you can be bothered by a politically charged phrase, then you are capable of understanding why others are bothered by a different politically charged phrase.

You hate the phrase "Manifest Destiny", but you love living in the Americanized west. Similarly, I love living in America, but have no use for - and am even bothered by - the phrase "American Dream". And probably for the same reasons you don't like the phrase "Manifest Destiny".

(I keep trying to make sense, and keep failing. For those of you who don't understand what I'm saying, and for those who don't want to, take heart - you are hardly alone in that regard! And yet, I make so much sense to myself...)

And finally.....and quite sincerely.....

Thank you very much for reading and for responding!

Even though it just encourages me....

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 7:28 pm

raven, said blah blah.. i said yawn i think i need to take a leak.. to many word.. raven must have too much time on hand.. maybe you should try to be priductive once..

sun4all · Post by **sun4all** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 9:59 pm

...like I do every year. We go to BM to make art, see art, and enjoy the Playa. The theme is really peripheral to what we do at Burning Man. Larry's essays that accompany each theme are mildly interesting and that's that.

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 11:29 pm

I'm wondering if we can round all the whiners, whingers, nay-sayers, PC nazis up in a nice large area say, like the playa and have a crop duster do a fly by and spray them with a few gallons of Gynecort(TM)?

Rabbi Dali Rick · Post by **Rabbi Dali Rick** » Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:00 pm

Aurei wrote:So Burning Man is turning into everything I hate! What's with the f***ing "American Dream" Theme Bullshi*!???

Burning Man is selling out, and going way too commercial. WTF happened?

It's a test. are you a real burner or are you a wanna-be..

take the blue pill...

the rebbi

dana · Post by **dana** » Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:16 pm

Ugly Dougly wrote:At the Very First Burn on the beach, you can be assured that NO ONE was reminiscing about how previous burns were so much better...

Funny!!!

Well the theme is really more for those who are doing a piece of art and decide to respond to that theme. (unless there will be another corporate sponsored thang - which admittedly could be pretty scary in this case.)

You can take our country however you slice it. But the various artists over time have caught some interesting themes: the statue of liberty - gift from the French (a woman holding knowledge and a torch looking out to the world), the esoteric symbols on our money suggesting the ancient roots of freedom, mysticism and possibility that inspired our founding fathers to go on to pen one of the best constitutions in the world (despite what's happened to it since), all the mad inspired artists and musicians our country has produced (Kerouac - sure), to name a few examples.

I have to assume at least one artist will come up with some good responses to the theme.

ravyn · Post by **ravyn** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 12:05 am

I feel sad that it has been reduced to "the American Dream" I love tht it has been international. It will be as it will be but I will nt and can NOT relate to the AMERICAN anything. My world does not have lines or boundaries.....but that is just me.
When Our astronauts saw the earth from outer space they did not see ...
AMERICA...they saw a globe without boundaries. That is my dream!!!!!!
Love Ravyn :P

RingO'Fire · Post by **RingO'Fire** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 6:55 am

Badger wrote:I'm wondering if we can round all the whiners, whingers, nay-sayers, PC nazis up in a nice large area say, like the playa and have a crop duster do a fly by and spray them with a few gallons of Gynecort(TM)?

I have to say, I'm with Badger on this one.

pinemom · Post by **pinemom** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 7:23 am

hehehe...
we made GIANT BOOBIES to party in....that aint green...were doing it again this next yr...that aint american....heheheee
ok...were making them a lil' bigger..thats american....
more or less so the tall people(stilts) dont have to bend over while inside!

SUPER SIZE ME!

MUhahahaaaa

skygod · Post by **skygod** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:27 am

Badger wrote: whingers

Is that pronounced "Wingers" or "Winjers"?

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 10:18 am

dana wrote: Well the theme is really more for those who are doing a piece of art and decide to respond to that theme. (unless there will be another corporate sponsored thang - which admittedly could be pretty scary in this case.)

Normally the theme is chosen such that it has a couple of different interpretations. For instance The Floating World, implied the ukiyo-e period of Japanese art or a nautical theme, depending on whether you slept through art history class or not.

Guessing that the current theme is preliminary.

Now, back to our usual silly, careless remarks!

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 10:19 am

The latter.

Whinger: A whiner.

BAS · Post by **BAS** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 6:22 pm

Well, I heard the rumor that BMORG has decided to do an end-run around everyone, and for 2009 the theme will be "Whiners"!

('course, it could be I have been listening to the voices in my head again...)

B.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 6:49 pm

BAS wrote:Well, I heard the rumor that BMORG has decided to do an end-run around everyone, and for 2009 the theme will be "Whiners"!

('course, it could be I have been listening to the voices in my head again...)

B.

\/
i m very happy some have decided to stay home/quit burning man..

by thurs camps were hard to place.
we broke down some of ours and subdivided.. not a bad thing.. even met new friends

bradtem · Post by **bradtem** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 8:11 pm

Clearly some themes do better than others. You can safely ignore the theme of course -- the majority of artists and camps generally do. Some years there is more theme art than others.

There are different metrics of success. Some themes have been a great success in terms of participation and fun, such as the Floating World. Others generated more abstract creativity. Some were failures -- but if there weren't failures it would mean they were being too safe.

The controversy over The American Dream heartens me. One of the reasons I feel that the Green Man is in the failure class is that there is, counterculture or not, an "orthodoxy" of environmentalism in our community. Nobody was going to do an "I love big oil" art piece, though perhaps "I love fire" was implicit in many pieces as it always is. When you have an orthodoxy the art won't be as stimulating, won't say anything you don't already know.

In first hearing of the theme, I worried there might be a certain orthodoxy about patriotism. I don't expect to see any serious "I love President Bush" art on the playa, but would love to be surprised. But it looks as like we won't fall into the trap of promoting a lot of "Our country is going in the wrong direction" interpretations of the theme.

I have written that Burning Man is the most American thing there is, for only in America could something so outrageous originate, and indeed happen with the mainstream culture being largely blase' about it. I have gotten agreement on this from many foreign burners, and I am not a U.S. citizen myself. So it is the American Dream of freedom made real.

So I maintain "hope and fear" over this theme. Let's see what we do -- or if need be, just do whatever you like and ignore the theme.

Toolmaker · Post by **Toolmaker** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 1:11 am

bradtem wrote:The controversy over The American Dream heartens me. One of the reasons I feel that the Green Man is in the failure class is that there is, counterculture or not, an "orthodoxy" of environmentalism in our community. Nobody was going to do an "I love big oil" art piece, though perhaps "I love fire" was implicit in many pieces as it always is. When you have an orthodoxy the art won't be as stimulating, won't say anything you don't already know.

Crude Awakening was all about our love of oil. It was very stimulating.. especially when that fucker went BOOM!

bradtem · Post by **bradtem** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 1:21 am

Of course it was about our love of oil, but it wasn't in support of our love of oil. Giant wire figures shooting flames worshiping an oil rig sure struck me as critical, not supporting.

Ditto big rig jig.

I'm not against art that has opinions or is political, but I don't favour topics where there is one predominant viewpoint on the topic in the community, unless the art is skewering that opinion. The green-themed art this year may have skewered concepts from mainstream culture, but within the community there was no controversy to the politics. (There was controversy over the irony of environmentally themed art also being environmentally destructive in terms of what is burned, but I didn't see that controversy as the goal. My take anyway.)

Of course the Green Man theme was not meant to simply refer to environmentalism, but to the classic green man nature spirit as well, but while I saw a few things related to that, they were few and far between.

This theme is why I won't go next year

Fun in the Sun

Re: Fun in the Sun

Re: Fun in the Sun

It's the little things....

I'll just ignore the theme

Re: WTF?

Themes plus and minus

Re: Themes plus and minus

Our love of oil