Is democracy fading away,,,, should it ?

lurker · Post by **lurker** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 8:25 am

Now that Diebold controls the voting results I would have to say that we are fucked. I cannot participate in a system I know to be rigged. I was fooled last time using those Diebold machines, no more. As far as I am concerned the country has been hijacked and no longer belongs to the people. I also do not acknowledge any debts accrued in my name by some rich fucker who never shared his pie with me.

You're so right--look at how the Republicans(and the head of Diebold is a Republican) cemented their control of Congress in the last election. Every Republican initiative and challenger was sucessful.

The bastards!

Oh, wait, that didn't happen. The people who 'control' the voting machines got their asses handed to them.

thisisthatwhichis · Post by **thisisthatwhichis** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:18 pm

Ahhhhh, Fuck, Lurker......
Way to stop a good thread..........

Doesn't stop the Greatest Thread, though..........

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 10:48 am

Ah. I'd like to have an argument, please.
Certainly sir. Have you been here before?
No, I haven't, this is my first time.
I see. Well, do you want to have just one argument, or were you thinking of taking a course?
Well, what is the cost?
Well, It's one pound for a five minute argument, but only eight pounds for a course of ten.
Well, I think it would be best if I perhaps started off with just the one and then see how it goes.
Fine. Well, I'll see who's free at the moment.
Pause
Mr. DeBakey's free, but he's a little bit conciliatory. Ahh yes, Try Mr. Barnard; room 12.
Thank you.

Better?

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 9:49 pm

This is an interesting discussion about the merits of democracy http://observer.guardian.co.uk/comment/ ... %2C00.html

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 9:34 am

The Lakota are realy pushing secesion. Very interesting;

That moment has come. In September of this year, the United Nations passed a non-binding Resolution on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. Naturally, Canada, the United States and Australia refused to sign, but this resolution paved the way for a move that has been waiting in the wings, so to speak, since the 1970s.

On Wednesday of this week, Russell Means led a delegation of the Lakota Sioux people to the U.S. State Department and the embassies of Bolivia, Chile, South Africa and Venezuela, declaring their secession from the United States of America.

Means stated, "We are no longer citizens of the United States of America and all those who live in the five-state area that encompasses our country are free to join us." The lands of the Lakota Sioux encompass portions of Nebraska, North Dakota, South Dakota, Wyoming and Montana. In the coming weeks, they will take their diplomatic mission overseas to seek further support.

Means also stated that anyone willing to renounce their U.S. citizenship would live on Lakota land tax free, and that the Lakota would issue their own passports and driving licenses. Since a large group of libertarians have recently moved to Wyoming, this opens up some interesting possibilities for a free society growing up in our midst.

The coming road will not be an easy one. I cannot see the U.S. neo-conservatives leaving this alone. I imagine that there will be another bloody and vicious siege taking place on Lakota land, but I also believe that Means has timed his move correctly. If this happens as I fear it will, the neo-conservatives will be the clear authors of their own destruction. The American people have had enough!

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 10:02 am

Independence? What kind of American value is that? They should go back to where they come from.

BAS · Post by **BAS** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 10:42 am

Here and on WORT, Madison, Wisconsin's independent radio station, are the only places I have heard about the Lakota secession attempt....

I expect it to be crushed. The cost of crushing their secession could be grave and, in my opinion, probably not worth it. (Not that Our Glorious Leaders[tm] would listen to me, of course.)

B.

Apollonaris Zeus · Post by **Apollonaris Zeus** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 10:57 am

My sister told me about last night. So the news is already on the east coast. I was thrilled to hear it. I fully support their succession. As I said, the Bush will be seen as the historical height or the point of downhill of the usa. White men speak in Fork Tongue and can never be trusted. It's all downhill now. The financially rich Mohegan Tribe is funding the move and they just bought the Tropicanna in AC.

Power to the Lakota!!!

Do not enlist in the Armed Forces.

No army No war!

Toolmaker · Post by **Toolmaker** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 1:29 pm

Apollonaris Zeus wrote:White men speak in Fork Tongue and can never be trusted.

So you are never to be trusted?

Kinetik V · Post by **Kinetik V** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 6:10 pm

Apollonaris Zeus wrote:My sister told me about last night. So the news is already on the east coast. I was thrilled to hear it. I fully support their succession. As I said, the Bush will be seen as the historical height or the point of downhill of the usa. White men speak in Fork Tongue and can never be trusted. It's all downhill now. The financially rich Mohegan Tribe is funding the move and they just bought the Tropicanna in AC.

Power to the Lakota!!!

Do not enlist in the Armed Forces.

No army No war!

This story was a top headline on Fox News's website this past week...it got widespread media coverage.

As for the white men comment...I look white but I have Cherokee and Sioux blood that has been researched and extensively documented. I write that to make a point that the color of one's skin should not be used as a factor in judging credibility, truthfulness or for any other reason...except to maybe determine how strong of sunscreen someone might require.

And as for the armed forces, I fully support the troops...it's their leadership that I dislike. And that can be changed through the ballot box. Their missions and objectives IMHO deserve our support....I don't know about you but I want to have the option to eat Chinese food because I want to...not because it would be the dominant food type in America if the PLA is not kept in check.

Apollonaris Zeus · Post by **Apollonaris Zeus** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 9:47 pm

Send in the Calvary for me speakth with a fork in my mouth.

At this time of the year, I lose all that melanin and can almost see the blue veins. If you notice, I do more bullshiting at this time so you see there might be a correlation.

But Don't join the calvery because I will side with the Lakota that's what I'm saying and my arrows are mighty -so are my automatic weapons. But I don't think a shot will ever be fired in this succession if it happens at all.

Kinetic, thanks for the info, I found this.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,317548,00.html

Kinetic, does a red neck pass for a red skin?

AIIZ

Box Burner · Post by **Box Burner** » Wed Dec 26, 2007 12:57 pm

Send in the Calvary???????

Surely you jest.

Box Burner · Post by **Box Burner** » Wed Dec 26, 2007 1:07 pm

If the Lakota want to secceed let them. However I do not think that the benefits of seccesion out weight the disadvantages.

On voting.

A lot of people who would vote for another party (not democrat or republican) do not because they fear that by doing so their vote will be wasted. But what would happen if neither the republicans or democrats could get more that 30% Of the vote on this election because everyone voted for someone else?

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Wed Dec 26, 2007 7:08 pm

Hold the phone!!! If the Lakota seceed, they can be farmers. The biggest cash crop in the US is pot If the Lakota just limit themselves to pot and gambling, they should be able to buy all the frybread that they want.

Spoiler votes,,, In previous elections, a third party vote for someone who couldn't possibly win was considered a spoiler taken away from whichever candidate was considered the lesser of 2 evils.
I think that the level of evil is pretty high and fairly balanced for our current slate of candidates. I believe that a vote for Paul sends a definite message to the collection of shitheads that SOP in America has to stop. Even Billary mentioned the word "constitution" That's a pretty big stretch for that piece of shit. All she can think about after getting elected is attacking Iran. A third party vote does send a message. Of course, messages from Americans have been uniformly ignored but , what the hell. Dan

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:16 pm

So! We're not doomed then.

That's comforting.

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:37 pm

Dougly, i'd say that on the balance, the military-industrial complex is the wild cannon right now. If the US really goes belly up financially, the M/I complex should have it's teeth pulled. Yes, we are all mortal, but if the hawks are neutralised, we might see a lot more tranquility to go with our mortality.

Since a mixed or polyglot population doesn't have any big majority to oppress the minority,,,,, and since religion is a curse on the world that has resulted in endless millions of "minorities" being killed and persecuted,,, we should adopt Zeus's pantheon. There will be so many gods that we would have a polyglot religion. With 50 dieties, there would not be a big majority to put the squeeze on a minority. I'm sure that Bachannal and Mammon would be very popular. We're only missing a god of refer. C'mon Burners, nominate your favorite god. No dead guys on crosses, who wants to identify with a loser.
If we can't rid ourselves of politicians, we can at least have gods that we enjoy.

Toolmaker · Post by **Toolmaker** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:37 pm

can't sit still wrote:We're only missing a god of refer.

The God of Moses says we should have reefer. Its the followers that are confused about the scriptures.

http://www.holyhemp.org/
http://www.equalrights4all.org/religious/bible.htm

Rastafarians are into weed too.

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:55 pm

"The God of Moses says we should have reefer. "
Ahhh,,, that explains the burning bush.
Yahwe wasn't such a party-pooper after all.

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 10:08 am

Big Bunny Lives.

Apollonaris Zeus · Post by **Apollonaris Zeus** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:02 pm

Democracy is alive and working in New Jersey.

The governor is expected to sign a bill to abolish the Electoral System relying on only the popular vote. If we didn't have this fucked up system in place in 2000, then gore would be president, not bush and a half a million people would still be alive in Iraq and America. We would not be broke as a nation. And so on, and on...

Democracy is alive in Iowa. the intrenched politicians lost and Obama won.

You know he smoked Pot!

He smoked pot and admitted it. Something, Clinton (both) did not confess to.

Democracy is alive and death to those that deny it!

AIIZ

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:48 pm

Zues, If you had to choose between 2 evils, what would you choose? 1. popular voting with electronic machines or 2. paper voting with the electoral college?

Apollonaris Zeus · Post by **Apollonaris Zeus** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:56 pm

That's a tough one!

The only answer is: absentee ballots! (i actually have thought about that scenario)

Montana passed a law recently forbidding electronic voting machines. I don't know of any other?

AIIZ

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:17 pm

They've been decertified in California. I know that's not the same thing...

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 8:03 am

The best and worst thing about electronic voting machines is that nobody trusts them. If they looked advantageous to any one group, it would be a tough fight to bring their weaknesses to light.
Kenya is in a mess right now and they don't use them. I suppose elections were stolen long before electronic voting came about. EV just makes it easier.

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:05 pm

This is quite interesting; The Pathocracy.
http://www.agoracosmopolitan.com/home/F ... 02073.html

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:42 am

"I have no more cause for shame than you, you vulture-hearted plunderer," answered Murilo promptly. "You exploit a whole kingdom for your personal greed; and, under the guise of disinterested statemanship, you swindle the king, beggar the rich, oppress the poor, and sacrifice the whole future of the nation for your ruthless ambition. You are no more than a fat hog with his snout in the trough. You are a greater thief than I am. This Cimmerian is the most honest man of the three of us, because he steals and murders openly."

ZaphodBurner · Post by **ZaphodBurner** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:16 pm

What's ironic here is that the original poster is from Bend:

Much of the highway between the Warm Springs indian reservation and Bend was built on an ancient native American trading route: the tribal Americans in the original poster's community were slave traders; they traded human lives for things like sea shells.

There are no longer tribes in "Bend." The tribes that aren't yet extinct mainly live on the reservations, and the population of "Bend" is overwhelmingly upper-middle-class anglo-American like just about everybody reading this.

Democracy seems to work pretty well for white people in central Oregon, (I vacation there every winter myself) but if we don't like it, maybe we could give the land back so the natives so they can return to warring with each other and trading slaves.

What are the odds?

-zb
(Read about the Lahontan tribes sometime, by the way.)

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:11 am

What are the chances that Hillary Clinton's little "emotional moment" was a fabricated event? They certainly staged it at the right place; she's sitting at what could be your dining room table, drinking coffee, with some nice-looking pastries in the background for subliminal effect.

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:19 pm

Zaphod, it all gets down to guilt. As one species or population displaces another, should they feel guilt. Everything from ants to lions compete for living space. Hyenas probably feel only pleasure to kill lion cubs,,, not guilt. Ants displace other ants. The orientals displaced the Ainu to populate Japan. http://d21c.com/zenegata/ainu18.html
Should Europeans feel guilt for supplanting Amerinds?
I have a neighbor who grew up on the reservation. Anytime that someone from the town caught a real bad infection, they always tossed that persons blanket on the side of the road near the reservation.
This is a strategy for success. Is competition for leiberstraum a bad or a good thing?
Right now, Bush has demanded a much bigger commitment to ethanol. China has let her grain reserves drop perilously low. We're going to bend China over the barrel for every morsel of food that she gets. Is this bad?Arable land and especially water is becoming scarcer by the day. Energy to produce crops, etc. is getting scarcer every day.
Should one population feel remorse at displacing another? It's natures way. Can we afford to be complacent and benevolent towards other populations that may very well supplant our population?
Many countries have a diminishing population. The future belongs to the most fecund or warlike,,, or both. Should this involve guilt?

Elliot · Post by **Elliot** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:55 pm

"Lebensraum" -- German; "living room", meaning living space, habitat.

Great thread.