Black Rock City Address System Unveiled

philosopher · Post by **philosopher** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 1:28 pm

AKAparttime wrote:No need to reinvent the wheel hear kids
I'm letting you in on a well kept secret
put a mail box out in front of your camp with camp name on it...
We:
The Embassy
Camp I am
Magic forest
always get our mail in a timely fashion...& people can find us too....
-PT

We are not trying to re-invent the wheel, dear friends, just get it better in round. As camp organizer for the BRCPO, I see problems of mail handling that most burners never will. I wouldn't have been interested when DM brought up address reform if everything was just fine. She entered a conversation that has been going on in the BRCPO for a couple of years at least.

Having delivered hundreds of pieces of mail over the years, my experience is that fewer than 10% of recipients have mailboxes. Lots of informal camps, solo-type campers, etc. This is really about the needles in the haystack, of which there are many.

Even if people use something like the addressing format we are proposing, that still won't stop me from doing my "lost mailman" schtick or whatever other performance art pops into my head. And "incomplete" addresses will still work, just not as well as the more detailed ones in some cases.

Of course it is great that most mail gets delivered in a timely way--we work hard at making that happen-but as the city grows, we need a better way to handle the difficult deliveries that might be accomplished if we didn't run out of time. Our man in PDX, deadletter B, tries to make it all work out when everybody goes home, but we all would prefer playa mail to get to its intended destination before exodus.

Donna Matrix · Post by **Donna Matrix** » Wed Dec 26, 2007 9:39 am

Systems exist for those who use them and are meanless for those who don't.

Donna Matrix · Post by **Donna Matrix** » Wed Dec 26, 2007 9:40 am

meaningless... gee

*my back hurts and I'm on drugs*

robbidobbs · Post by **robbidobbs** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 9:15 pm

I agree with Motsky: put up a mailbox.
Or at least a big fucking sign.
Problem: I found the placement symbology non-intuitive.
Suggestion: Instead use a combination of clock equivalents (8:38) that's already commonly used and intuitive, and add "inner" or "outer" side of street. Inner identifies the side of the street closer to the Man, and the Outer side...well...yah, like that.
For instance: I lived at 3:20 inner and A. Motsky lived at 8:38 outer and G.
Even if someone was totally staggering, it would be intuitive.

Donna: I know from my own experience that trying to get a small change to happen universally takes a LOT of footwork.

Philosopher: Thank you for being a surly postal worker. We love ya for your hard work.

motskyroonmatick · Post by **motskyroonmatick** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 1:12 am

Even if someone was totally staggering, it would be intuitive.

Stag Camp 2.0 in 2008.
My favorite Stag Camp quote to date even if it was unintentional. Even better if it was just that right ammount of subtle.

Yes mail boxes really help and they are relatively cheap.

"There is no team in FUCK YOU!" is something I learned from the BRCPO and I use it monthly when appropriate. The post office is one of the first things I check out when I get my feet on the ground. It and Playa Info are the only two things I utilize in center camp now that ice sales have franchised.

Zhust · Post by **Zhust** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:32 am

I guess two things.

First, if you want mail, put up a mailbox or a sign that clearly says the name of your camp. If you don't want mail or want to be somewhat anonymous, don't be so clear.

Second, I think the directional indicators (Position, I think you call it) aren't very intuitive. When we address streets in default-world America, houses are numbered in ascending order with odd numbers on one side and even on the other. This gives both a specific position and side.

So with the BRC addressing, I think a similar system could be employed a bit more directly. Clock positions are naturally able to be subdivided by exact minute locations. Alphabet streets can similarly be subdivided by appending another letter â€” A:M, for instance would be halfway between A and B.

To give street-side orientation, avoid the use of the street name as an indicator. 7:00 and C identifies an intersection because both 7:00 and C are street names; naming like this typically means "somewhere near 7 and C". However, consider 7:01 and C:A â€” now you're talking about the corner near 7:00 and C that is further clockwise than 7:00 and further outward than C (by your notation "7:00 and C </*\", I think).

This also means that any location in the city can be relatively accurately located â€” for instance, 7:15 and C:M is smack-dab in the middle of the block contained by 7:00 to 7:30 from C to D. This could be used as a precise polar coordinate system, although the 26-point granularity between alphabetical streets works out to something like 10-feet-per-letter whereas one minute on the outer-ring is more like 50 feet. But with hour:minute notation, there's always the possibility of notations like "7:15:25" or "7:15.45".

Post by **mdmf007** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 8:47 am

Seems cool but complicated -

I have always just used the clock face and lettered streets to locate an address.

like - "I'll be at Teds camp - 8:10ish and g" seems to work. I like your system too.

Donna Matrix · Post by **Donna Matrix** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 10:26 am

We tried not to be too complex but tried for specificity.

The problem I encountered was when a fellow campmate told me of this great camp and I just couldn't find it. You see, she came back one day with beautiful clean washed hair. My hair was a mess. She described where this hair washing camp was and I set out on bike to find this place but although the directions sounded logical when dispensed the camp was not where she directed me.

I tired getting directions and finding it three times, but the camp mate had no way to describe where it was. One of main problems was there was no address at the camp site itself and she didn't really look at the signs going or coming back from said camp. So, camp signs and markers are great, but it seems to me what is really needed is the address posted on the sign itself so people can give it out to other people (yes, just like in the default world).

Now this wouldn't be as important if it didn't have anything to do with my hair. But come on!!!! it's my hair. And she did look great after the washing.

Zhust · Post by **Zhust** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 5:21 am

Donna Matrix wrote:The problem I encountered was when a fellow campmate told me of this great camp and I just couldn't find it.

I think you just asked the wrong question. You should have asked how she found it, not where it was. Burning Man is like that. While you were busy checking street corners and searching, you were missing Burning Man, you know? There's plenty of things to do and see ... I bet lots of people found the hair-washing place just fine. Maybe you should have tried singing or something.

the fire elf · Post by **the fire elf** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:00 am

um... radical self reliance comes to mind...

the city needs to change 'cause your hair wasn't sparkly and fresh?

Donna Matrix · Post by **Donna Matrix** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 8:34 am

Changing the city for sparkly hair... now that's the concept I was going for... sure... you got it... you figured me out.

You know I did end up washing my own hair and it was all was fine...

Look before you leap (to judgment).

WHAT EXACTLY HAVE YOU ALL DONE TO TRY TO CONTRIBUTE TO BM? I AM PARTICIPATING - YOU ARE CONDEMNING ME FOR IT. Do you realize that?

the fire elf · Post by **the fire elf** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 8:54 am

i realize that you might infer that...

whether i am actually condemning you in such a way is rather presumptuous, even as accusations go...

it's not you in particular i care to make a stand against

it's the notion that when one encounters stressors, then surely something must be wrong with the world,
as the way we move through it is apparently perfectly adequate to continue moving...

that's the same reason people get shot in malls or churches by a self-decimator

see, the thing is: that type of thing only comes up around people... individual people who may have the best of intentions and maybe even spiffy hair; though it's not confined to that paradigm

Donna Matrix · Post by **Donna Matrix** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 9:06 am

I beg to differ... I used to pack pack all over the Sierras in the 70's. I bought and brought US Geological maps. I found the trails - I found the landmarks. I never got lost for long. I had a great time and no other people were involved.

I just can't see why some people on this here discussion board are indifferent to finding camps... go see the poll... over half the people polled think it's not a thing to find camps...

Do you have an explaination for that...

Donna Matrix · Post by **Donna Matrix** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 9:11 am

And just because they are indifference - I should be indifference as well?

the fire elf · Post by **the fire elf** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 9:36 am

it's made up of camps...

Donna Matrix · Post by **Donna Matrix** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 10:06 am

Great

the fire elf · Post by **the fire elf** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 10:14 am

put it this way,
your maps and your destinations are your wealth.
you love your wealth soo much, i disincline to suggest

the fire elf · Post by **the fire elf** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 10:25 am

Donna Matrix · Post by **Donna Matrix** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 10:31 am

What in the fuck are you talking about?

the fire elf · Post by **the fire elf** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 10:36 am

it's a mystic thing

robbidobbs · Post by **robbidobbs** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:49 am

Donna Matrix wrote:WHAT EXACTLY HAVE YOU ALL DONE TO TRY TO CONTRIBUTE TO BM? I AM PARTICIPATING - YOU ARE CONDEMNING ME FOR IT. Do you realize that?

Nice hissy-fit, sweety.
You want to know what I do? This is Art, not a pissing contest.

I see there is a lot of good information presented in this thread. You're still in the brainstorming phase of this project. Just don't get lost on the details, but focus on the ultimate solution/vision. The value of time spent on a project doesn't suddenly get inversely proportional to the criticism of it.

Think about how your art project relates to the greater culture. I suggest sticking with the clock face paradigm, as it's defacto already in place.

You're already working with the BRCPO. Great. You would do well to join their email list and get their feedback, not just 30 snarky bastards on this message board.

Historically, addresses were, and still are, created by the USPS. The USPS also works with the EMS/911 system to rationalize the rural areas to this day. Find out how ESD & BR Rangers deal with this issue, work with them, I'm sure they'd give you insight on practical navigation. Hint: they get seriously practical when there's an injured participant and they need to get someone on site right now.

You've got the 10% Inspiration started, now get with the 90% Perspiration. If it means going around with a box full of survey flags and some Sharpies to mark off addresses, then do it. Take full responsibility for YOUR art project. We're just the peanut gallery.

Be the change that you want to see, and wear good shoes.

Donna Matrix · Post by **Donna Matrix** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:58 am

Why do you think you can tell me what I think? (fire elf)

Making "you" statements are not very emotionally or intellectually sound.

This is what I was saying before: to wit, all I did was proposed a system of addressing so those people who wanted to could address their camps so others could find them. A purely voluntary system. And then people come on this thread and personally attack me on my motives and accuse me of wanting to "control" the experience of other burners somehow (I still haven't figured out that one). Not only that, but then these others have the unmitigated gall to proclaim my thought processes and my feelings. I am more than capable of stating my own mind and heart.

I appreciate those who have posted feedback on the system proposed. Their comments are most helpful. I would like to get back to a discussion of the system rather than spend my time fending off arrows and bullets.

Tell you what? I will start another thread called "Shit on Donna Matrix"... k? Then who ever wants to can lamb-blast me all they like. I will go there and counterattack and we'll have a great mock war. Would that be to your liking?

Donna Matrix · Post by **Donna Matrix** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:59 am

robbidobbs - that post was not directed at you in the least. I was replying to the fire elf.

Donna Matrix · Post by **Donna Matrix** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 12:02 pm

robbidobbs

Yes... I so agree.

I am trying to do exactly what you said. Take responsibility.

Thank you.

BitterDan · Post by **BitterDan** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 12:03 pm

Something tells me that I should not get involved in this pissing contest...

Donna Matrix · Post by **Donna Matrix** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 12:07 pm

You know.. I guessed it would turn out this way... into a pissing contest.. but I said..... "no, don't prejudge, do it anyway."

Something tells me that I should not have gotten into this pissing contest either.

Donna Matrix · Post by **Donna Matrix** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 12:17 pm

Logical Fallacies

Ad Hominem: Arguing against the man instead of against the issue.

BitterDan · Post by **BitterDan** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 12:25 pm

Suggestion: Instead use a combination of clock equivalents (8:38) that's already commonly used and intuitive, and add "inner" or "outer" side of street. Inner identifies the side of the street closer to the Man, and the Outer side...well...yah, like that.
For instance: I lived at 3:20 inner and A. Motsky lived at 8:38 outer and G.
Even if someone was totally staggering, it would be intuitive.

This is my sentiments exactly. I too found the symbology to be confusing (and I am sober right now). I can only imagine what I would think when I saw those symbols on the playa, "Oh pretty symbols. Woah, is that a... nah, couldn't be. What was I doing again? Oh look Chia Pussy!"

Basically when I told people where to find Camp FuckIt, I'd just say "7:10 and D". If I had just added "outside" to that equation anyone could have found us in nearly any state of consciousness.

Just my 2 cents on the matter and not a judgment nor condemnation of your proposed system.

mayavin · Post by **mayavin** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 12:28 pm

A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation

Donna Matrix · Post by **Donna Matrix** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 12:28 pm

An argument ad hominem attacks the person supporting an opposing view instead of the viewpoint itself:

"How can you believe this woman; she works for the government!"

The woman's employment may or may not have some bearing on what she is saying, but you should not assume that she is wrong on that basis.

An argument ad populem does the reverse: it assumes that someone is correct because of his or her position:

"If the Premier says so, it must be true."

Again, you should not assume that the Premier is telling the truth.

The appeal to authority is similar, in that it assumes that a prestigious person or document must of necessity be right. Even Aristotle may be wrong about gravity, or the Bible wrong about the circumference of a circle. Especially in literary essays, simply quoting a well-known critic will not of itself support your argument; you must be prepared for the sceptic who will question the pronouncements even of a Northrop Frye.

Name-calling is in a sense the opposite of the appeal to authority: it is the process of placing what the writer dislikes or opposes into a generally odious category without justifying the use of the terms. Conservatives call Liberals "Communists" while Liberals call Conservatives "Fascists." Name-calling appeals to prejudice, not to rationality.

An argument ad misericordiam argues that something is true because if it is not, someone will suffer:

"There must be a solution, because otherwise we will all perish!"

Unfortunately, this is usually not the case.

An appeal to force argues that a statement is true because physical harm will come to those who disagree with it.

The most common fallacy of relevance is the bandwagon argument: "50,000,000 Elvis Fans Can't Be Wrong!" This argument usually provokes the Bridge Question: "If everybody jumped off the Johnson St. Bridge, would you do it too?" Remember that the opinion of the majority is not always the one to accept.

Black Rock City Address System Unveiled

Finding Camps is:

Yes and no