Fuck the Caste System, what American Class are you?

[erri2000]

Wisconsin

Wisconsin, where Minneapolis buys beer on Sunday.

[theCryptofishist]

Donner Boots. Are they tasty if you get snowed in and run out of food? Or just made by Ed Gein?

[can't sit still]

When America ws founded, people were so sick of class distinctions, that we formed a more egalitarian approach. You were judged on your abilities rather than your family connections. Class distinstions started to form more around abilities rather than family connections. Now, that isn't to say that good remuneration necessarily followed good abilities.
There are still plenty of very capable people who aren't adequately compensated for thei abilities/contribution. That has, , of course, resulted in well qualifies people starting their own enterprise.
Since Americans generally prefer not to be ostentatious, you end up with rich and powerful people running around in jeans. You don't dare get snobbish with the scruffy guy in blue jeans,,, he might own your buiulding. In America, we tend to differentiate more on abilities rather than money or family.
You can find an absolute pauper doing beautiful artwork and you can find a dimwit on the board of directors. Business doesn't run on titles or prety faces. People will judge you far better if you are smart, useful and reliable than if you are just,,, rich. Monetary divisions of class don't work when work needs to be done. People want brains and abilities. The US is the best place for a person to break out of a mold.

[erri2000]

The US is the best place for a person to break out of a mold.

I couldn't agree more.

An econ professor once said something that I always tried to remember. "Capitalism is a game. And if you know the rules you can win the game."

My game plan is design a corporation with an infrastructure that allows the corporation to properly feed its resources that keep it alive not just one fat ass pig at the top.

Here is a thought, why are salaries not regulated in relation to profit? I never understood why if the company was losing money the first person that would have their salary drop would be the highest paid person. And this would continue until everybody was making the same wage for what ever they where doing or until the company went under. The lowest paid person always loses the most in difficult times. I never met a middle class individual who had to sell their TV to make rent.

FYI I heard, and I can't back this up with hard data so throw it out if you want, that middle class was like 120,000 USD per year or 118,671.53 CAD. Does any one know?

"No person should ever want."
Disco Love.

[Zulegoona]

Erri I’m defiantly in agreement with you in spirit, and that is the way some solely owned companies work, the hired help gets paid before the owner/boss draws his or her salary. But in a regular corporation when the over paid corporate heads compensation drops he walks, in some cases that might be a good thing but in most losing your top management at a time of downturn would lead to the quick death of the company. Investors would shut it down to sell off assets to recoup what ever capital they could, and at that they'd only end up with pennies on the dollars they invested in your company.

[BitterDan]

According to the 2005 Census Income Statistics middle class would be anyone who earns between $30,000 and $62,000.

Edit: And those people make up %50 of the US population.

[erri2000]

what ever capital they could, and at that they'd only end up with pennies on the dollars they invested in your company.

But what if your investment was only your time or ideas? What if everything needed was already in the pot without it being for sale? What if a bunch of like minded people got together and put together a "constitution" of sorts for every shareholder?

EDIT
I actually meant Stakeholder not Shareholder.

[theCryptofishist]

When America ws founded, people were so sick of class distinctions, that we formed a more egalitarian approach.

Bullshit! We had plantation owners writing the Constitution, not slaves. Maybe "more" egalitarian, but hardly actually egalitarian.

[theCryptofishist]

FWIW, I'm not really as interested in the monetary definition of class, as I am of the experience of being one class or another. And the cultural capital of any particular class. ("Cultural Capital" meaning for these purposes the skills, survival and otherwise, that one learns in one's class of origen.") For me the whole question of some external definition takes us away from the meatier questions: how does class "work" in America; what do we learn about class growing up and how do we learn it; how does and doesn't our world change as we change classes.

[erri2000]

what do we learn about class growing up and how do we learn it; how does and doesn't our world change as we change classes.

American high school is a classic example of the "class" system in action (no pun intended).

The U.S. prison system is another good example.
On a side note, I saw that the U.S. had more people in prison per capita than any other country in the world. The US is still number one in somethings.

Also what does FWIW mean?

[Bob]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ac ... nitialisms

[Donna Matrix]

High School and Prison are the same thing, except HS is coed.

[robotland]

Also what does FWIW mean?

For What It's Worth. (Or, "Fine When It Works".)

I'm a Blue-Collar Academic, having dropped out of college out of boredom and restlessness and bopping around in various jobs ever since. In Ann Arbor I ran a record store, cooked at a "nice" restaurant, sold army surplus and worked concert security...Since then I've processed film, made neon signs, been a technician in the physics department at a cancer treatment facility and part-timed for UPS, just to name a few. All along I've done art fairs and gallery shows, with the occasional commissioned piece, and I'm excited to maybe teach another class or two at the local art institute this Spring. I'm also the Burning Man West Michigan Regional Representative, which is off to a slow start BUT I hope to change that soon...

[Apollonaris Zeus]

"How does class work?"

Class works like a barbed wired fence keeping each from intermingling with each other! Think of it like how religions keep different people from inter-marrying or associating.

I do not care to tell for what would it prove except that you will prejudge me not matter if I was poor, middle or upper.

I am not just an American for that would limit me,

therefore,

I am an Universal Being!





















Does that make me better then you, if so tough shit!

AIIZ

[can't sit still]

When America ws founded, people were so sick of class distinctions, that we formed a more egalitarian approach.

Bullshit! We had plantation owners writing the Constitution, not slaves. Maybe "more" egalitarian, but hardly actually egalitarian.

Well, this is the first completely meaningless statement that I've heard out of you Ms. Crypto.
Since the "idle" rich were the only ones who got an education, they were the only ones who could write a constitution. The body politic doesn't wake up one day and find that they have inalienable rights. Since the king has "uncontested" authority, the plantation owners are in a subservient position relative to him. Arguably, not as subservient as a slave, but still a much lower class. All rights movements have to start at the top. That was the whole idea behind the Magna Carta. The lords demanded rights and forced the king to sign. They formed the house of lords.
Later, these rights gradually trickeled down to free men who owned property. The house of commons. Much later, all men were able to vote,,,later, women.
Besides, it doesn't matter to what class an educated constitution writer belongs. It matters what is in his heart. Is it greed or altruism.
Centuries ago, slavery was no big deal. The freedom loving Greeks had slaves. The old testament finds no problem with slavery. When wage-slavery was "invented", bondage slavery became obsolete.
Egalitarianism demands the best person for the job. I doubt there were any slaves capable of writing an inspired constitution. The colonies were very egalitarian compared to the old world.

[Bob]

I keep thinking the subtext of this thread is whether any of us would do Paris Hilton, or not.

[BAS]

(starts to raise hand, thinks better of it and decides to watch to see if anyone else does first...)

[Kinetik V]

I keep thinking the subtext of this thread is whether any of us would do Paris Hilton, or not.

With that in mind there's not enough tequila available that would make her look even remotely interesting, much less anything else.
Her 15 minutes of fame should have been over a long time ago. All she's good for now is giving TMZ.com paps someone else to chase after when Britney's not hogging all of their attention.

[Apollonaris Zeus]

I'd first spend my week's wages at the Company Store on some whiskey then stop at the very first Hilton Inn and spend the night in Paris.

[erri2000]

Maybe "more" egalitarian, but hardly actually egalitarian.

Since the "idle" rich were the only ones who got an education, they were the only ones who could write a constitution.

I have to go with the fish on this. For as much as I think Thomas Jefferson kicked ass, I also think he was a two faced ass.

The constitution was written for the rich.

Also to state that "idle" rich were the 'ONLY' ones who could write a constitution is just FALLACIOUS!



There may have been someone that could write besides a rich person. Just because I do not have much does not mean I do not have the ability to understanding and communicate my ideas properly, the question seems more like is anyone going to listen if I can't pay the fees?

Later, these rights gradually trickled down to free men who owned property.

Well there you go again.

Besides, it doesn't matter to what class an educated constitution writer belongs. It matters what is in his heart. Is it greed or altruism.

What about a greed for altruism?

Centuries ago, slavery was no big deal.

To the slave it was.

The freedom loving Greeks had slaves.

How could you love freedom and own slaves?

The old testament finds no problem with slavery.

Your Translation

When wage-slavery was "invented", bondage slavery became obsolete.

No new slavery will ever replace old slavery only add to its chains.

I doubt there were any slaves capable of writing an inspired constitution. The colonies were very egalitarian compared to the old world.

[erri2000]

I keep thinking the subtext of this thread is whether any of us would do Paris Hilton, or not.

With that in mind there's not enough tequila available that would make her look even remotely interesting, much less anything else.

We already saw the money shot.



What a piece of useless tripe rolled up in a stinky prom dress.

[theCryptofishist]

Maybe "more" egalitarian, but hardly actually egalitarian.

Since the "idle" rich were the only ones who got an education, they were the only ones who could write a constitution.

I have to go with the fish on this. For as much as I think Thomas Jefferson kicked ass, I also think he was a two faced ass.

What about Sam Adams and Benjimin Franklin (who I've heard was sent to France so he couldn't write the constitution; I'm not sure that's true, but telling if it is)? The revolution was pricipitated by ordinary people, when it was inevitable, the rich Americans got on board and took it over and ran it for themselves.

[erri2000]

The revolution was precipitated by ordinary people, when it was inevitable, the rich Americans got on board and took it over and ran it for themselves.

I don't know about "got on board" more like "Masterminded" it probably is my thought.

It seems odd that the current administration seems to take this view with the rest of the world as well. Send out US troops to set up their version of "democracy" in other Countries that have something we want.

I am going to call GW a Dumb fuck right now. Excuse me.

[erri2000]

You know I can't believe no one has mentioned sexuality.

We allow are sexuality to define our "class" in society.

Like there is a still a huge majority that use sexuality as a diversion from what is important. Or at least the news makes it look that way, no one I know seems to care.

Seems a lot of people still have problems with others that say they are as "Good As You".

[can't sit still]

Greed for altruism sounds good. As far as the rich goes, they were more likely to incurr the wrath of the monarchy. Someone had to be made an object lession. Read what happened to the signers of the Declaration of Independence. They all got the shaft.
I still maintain that no person who was not highly educated could write our constitution. One would have to have an all-encompassing knowledge of the inequities of history to create a document that would address as many of these inequities as possible.

The Greeks loved personal freedom. It was your tough luck if you were on the other side of the fence.
Society evolves [or devolves]. Egalitarianism has proved to be more effecient. Monarchy is mixed. Theocracy is a piece of shit. Dictatorship wastes too much energy to keep the masses in line.
It looks like the current admin is some kind of bastard-child theocracy-dictatorship. Talk about the worst of all possibilities. Look at the energy wasted keeping the masses in control. More cameras , please.

The E-world opens up many possibilities as far as both freedom AND control are concerned. "We" could micro-manage every detail to maximise happiness,,,or control,,, or profit,,,,,, But not all three. Since media and the average person continuously talk about material possesions being the only avenue to [so-called] happiness, I don't see personal growth or familial unity being placed above profit.

On examination, the theme of Burning Man is considered aberrant to what the PTB insist is the focal point of happiness. This becomes self-evident when one returns to the default world. The return from dust confronts us with a modus viviendo that appears stressed and twisted from so many angles.
The next step in evolution of American politics may be a movement towards Scandanavian socialism. Who knows?
It looks like food is going to become an even more potent weapon in both politics and eugenics. http://rense.com/general79/rev.htm
As long as a very small minotity controls The 2 essentials of life, I don't see happiness or good governance making a wholesale appearance any time soon.

[erri2000]

Greed for altruism sounds good.

YEAH!

Read what happened to the signers of the Declaration of Independence.

Isn't that why most of the founding fathers had slaves sign in there place? (Hearsay from American History class in college)

I still maintain that no person who was not highly educated could write our constitution.

I bet Thomas Jefferson's slaves where educated. I joke because I love.

Seriously, you believe that if you got a bunch of people that where not traditionally educated couldn't jot down the basics of what and what not to do?

Also Abe Lincoln was not traditionally educated if I remember right and he grew up to be one of the most famous homosexuals in history.

The Greeks loved personal freedom. It was your tough luck if you were on the other side of the fence.

Well that is not true freedom. Freedom for some is not freedom.

Society evolves [or devolves]. Egalitarianism has proved to be more effecient. Monarchy is mixed. Theocracy is a piece of shit. Dictatorship wastes too much energy to keep the masses in line.
It looks like the current admin is some kind of bastard-child theocracy-dictatorship. Talk about the worst of all possibilities. Look at the energy wasted keeping the masses in control. More cameras , please.

So lets be capitalists! We are allowed to do that in this country. It is encouraged. Take everything that we know works and scrap the shit that doesn't. Garbage in garbage out.

I don't see personal growth or familial unity being placed above profit.

You have not seen my model yet.

And I do see your point about the rest and agree with you.

[erri2000]

Here is a picture



Pretty cool model huh?

[Simon of the Playa]

oh man, i could SO use a weekend in Paris...

[can't sit still]

"Seriously, you believe that if you got a bunch of people that where not traditionally educated couldn't jot down the basics of what and what not to do? "
Seriously,,,, NO. The average person in those days could not read or write. Our constitution is a remarkable document. Even if these illiterate slaves dictated their thoughts to a literate person, I don't believe they would have had the persipacity to produce anything usable.

"Isn't that why most of the founding fathers had slaves sign in there place? (Hearsay from American History class in college)"
Authentic signature or otherwise, they were all hounded to death.

"You have not seen my model yet."
This is the perfect time and place to show and tell.

Capitalism is a moderately good system. It's weakness is that if those in power have no sense of concience or altruism, it breaks down into unrestrained greed.
All systems eventually run into the brick wall of resource limitations. All populations used sacrifice and war to reduce their populations to what was consistent with their resources.
The Greeks were the enlightened exception. Rather than kill people to live within their resources, they channeled reproductive energy to where it would do no harm [raise the population. Boys fucked boys until they were able to support a family. Then they fucked girls.
This avoided the wholesale slaughter of children that was necessary in europe [the children's crusades]
The main limitations of society are the limitations of it's individuals. Greed and stupidity.

[erri2000]

"You have not seen my model yet."
This is the perfect time and place to show and tell.

Can I mention some domains names so you can see what I am trying to build or am I going to have to go through every bylaw of the corporation.

Alright let start with.

Things I believe to be true about a corporation.

A corporation is mindless.
A corporation will not spend funds unless ordered to by a human.
Corporations have no feelings.
Corporations do not care about how much profit is made.

I believe that :
No person should make over 10 time the amount of the lowest paid person.

A base fund should be set up from the general fund that is not touched for the stability of the corp.

Any resources should have access to any tools that a person needs.

To remember that without resources (people) there would not be a need for the corp.

Profit is defined as any amount of money over the amount it cost to run the company and should be reinvested in it resources.

Let start with those.