Donna Matrix's Bible Trivia Question O' the Day !!!

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Post by capjbadger » Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:56 pm

Donna Matrix wrote:Lot of people kept there faiths during the Inquisition. This article does not state that Galileo lost his faith because of the Church's behavior. In fact, the article leads one to the conclusion that Galileo was in discussion with the Church and was trying to persude them otherwise. I grant that the Church had more power than he, and Galileo suffered it.
Read your history. It is well known that scientists of that era wrote church supporting stuff in their publicly accessable works out of fear of the church and reserved their true thoughts to their private diaries that we am now uncovering.
But nowhere did it state that Galileo had private diaries that denied his faith.

The second link was about Religion and Science and how religion influenced science. It was not about Galileo per se.
Wait... what? This was not about Galileo's faith of lack thereof. It was about the fact the the church repressed his scientific findings because it did not match their view on faith. Facing DEATH, you're damn right he recanted and kept his further findings secretive. Dominican friar Giordano Bruno did the same and was burned at the stake in Rome in 1600 for his trouble.

"In late 1614 or early 1615, one of Caccini's fellow Dominicans, Niccolò Lorini, acquired a copy of Galileo's letter to Castelli, which he considered of sufficiently doubtful orthodoxy to bring to the attention of the Inquisition. In February 1615 he accordingly sent a copy to the Secretary of the Inquisition, Cardinal Sfondrati, with a covering letter critical of Galileo's supporters.[4]

A few weeks later, on March 19th, Caccini turned up at the Inquisition's offices in Rome to denounce Galileo for his Copernicanism and various other alleged heresies supposedly being spread by his pupils[5]."

A private letter was taken and used as evidence in his first trial.
Also, he secretly passed work on to his daughter Maria Celeste, who lived in a convent, and she helped him write and publish his works under the nose of the church.

Happy?

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Post by Rob the Wop » Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:09 pm

Donna Matrix wrote:Lot of people kept there faiths during the Inquisition.
You seriously must be kidding me...
I started watching this thread and thought I saw a fairly intelligent person with a Christian faith being beset by everyone and holding her own. My first foray into this thread was in support of you, in a manner, against what I seen as a attack based upon idiocy (re: trying to apply current scientific theory to Genesis).

Then you amazed me with a blanket statement on how the scientific basis of Western Civilization, is in fact based upon the belief in Christ. Western Civilization IS based in the Christian religion, there is no dodging that fact. Just as the Ottoman Empire can be said to be based on the Islamic faith. Its just what it is. Mostly a convieniant excuse for declaring war in order to procure valuable resources (which is what any war is all about in the end).

But for fuck's sake, you are attempting to romanticize the Inquisition?

A bunch of sadistic priests, in an effort to use fear tactics to consolidate their power, torture/kill who knows how many people (numbers range from 100k to over a million that I can find). Kept their faith? My mind boggles. Define, with cites, exactly what you mean by that. How much torture, which faith orginally, and who recorded that it was kept? Do you mean after the torture was over, they continued practicing thier faith? Or that they never renounced their faith while being tortured (which I do not believe- you will say anything when faced with enough pain)?

Holy crap Donna, what the hell?
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Post by capjbadger » Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:11 pm

Donna Matrix wrote:So, you are saying that civilizations before Christ had all the advances that we enjoy today?

That all Christian Europe did was steal stuff that was already there?

These BCers had full blown Chemistry, Physics, Math, Cars, Airplanes, Modern Highways, Space Shutters, Computers, Electricity, Light bulbs, Microwaves ovens, Tractors, Waste water treatment plants, Oil refineries, Food manufacturing plant, Steel mills, TV, Satilites, Cameras, Video players, Anti-biotics, anti-cancer drugs, surgery, modern antiseptics, toothpaste, movies, atomic bombs, guns, missles, machine guns, cruise ships, email, etc, etc, etc....

Wow - I never knew....
Of course not. Don't be sophomoric. Condescending doesn't suit you either.

You are again taking the debate to a tangent. You did not list those things in your OP. You said:
Donna Matrix wrote:Who developed math, physics, chemistry? Oh.. yea... Western Culture

Who developed medicine, sewer systems, electricity? Oh.. yea... Western Culture

Who developed roads, automobiles, planes? Oh... yea... Western Culture

And you say you don't use any of these... yet you are on the Internet... using electricity.... talking to me. You ride a horse to the store? Ever take a plane trip? Do you dig a hole in your backyard every time you take a shit? um.....

Yea... right.
And of those things, I told you the actual sources.
Modren society has built on that, yes. But don't try to claim Christ showed up and because of that I can send an email. These advances would of come with or with out him. Hell, without the Dark Ages and the repression of the sciences by the church, they would of come a couple hundred years earlier minimum.

Oh, and by the way, a good chunk of that list they DID have...
And if you think we have "full blown" chemistry or physics or math right now, you're sadly deluded.

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Post by Donna Matrix » Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:18 pm

There were many many underground groups during the inquisition that kept their faiths. Jewish ones, Christians one, and probably Islamic ones, but then they were kicked out by Queen E and King F. I never said anything about torture, not was Galileo ever tortured... Where did that come from? It wasn't in the discussion until you brought it up in your post.

I never said that
the scientific basis of Western Civilization, is in fact based upon the belief in Christ.
But I did say
Western Civilization IS based in the Christian religion, there is no dodging that fact.
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Post by erri2000 » Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:18 pm

Did I make you wait?

[youtube][/youtube]
It is alot like sex,
Some people just don't get it

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Post by BitterDan » Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:21 pm

Who developed math, physics, chemistry? Oh.. yea... Western Culture

Who developed medicine, sewer systems, electricity? Oh.. yea... Western Culture
I am fairly certain that the Muhammad bin MÅ«sÄ
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Post by capjbadger » Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:24 pm

erri2000 wrote:Did I make you wait?

[youtube][/youtube]
BRAVO!!
*holds lighter high*

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Post by Donna Matrix » Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:24 pm

capjbadger wrote:

The bit where you claimed that all these wonderful things (math, physics, chemistry, etc) are due to "Western Civilization", and I replied with a run down of all the real sources of those things which all happened to occur BC by non-christians (of course since he hadn't been even born yet) whom you attribute our western civilization to.

Does that help?

Badger
You said they all occured BC by non-christians. I said they didn't.
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Post by capjbadger » Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:28 pm

Donna Matrix wrote:
capjbadger wrote:

The bit where you claimed that all these wonderful things (math, physics, chemistry, etc) are due to "Western Civilization", and I replied with a run down of all the real sources of those things which all happened to occur BC by non-christians (of course since he hadn't been even born yet) whom you attribute our western civilization to.

Does that help?

Badger
You said they all occured BC by non-christians. I said they didn't.
As you would say, then give me cites. :)

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Post by Donna Matrix » Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:56 pm

Abdus Salam,[9] and George Saliba,[10] have referred to their achievements as a Muslim scientific revolution,[11][12] though this does not contradict the traditional view of the Scientific Revolution which is still supported by most scholars.[13][14][15]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_science

Science is a body of empirical, theoretical, and practical knowledge about the natural world, produced by a global community of researchers making use of scientific methods, which emphasize the observation, experimentation and explanation of real world phenomena. Given the dual status of science as objective knowledge and as a human construct, good historiography of science draws on the historical methods of both intellectual history and social history.

Tracing the exact origins of modern science is difficult. This is due in large part to the scant documentary and physical evidence of ancient investigations of nature. Even the word scientist is relatively recent -- first coined by William Whewell in the 19th century. Previously, people investigating nature called themselves natural philosophers.

While empirical investigations of the natural world have been described since antiquity (for example, by Aristotle), and scientific methods have been employed since the Middle Ages (for example, by Ibn al-Haytham), modern science is generally traced back to the early modern period, during what is known as the Scientific Revolution of the 16th and 17th centuries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_science
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Post by erri2000 » Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:58 pm

capjbadger wrote:
erri2000 wrote:Did I make you wait?

[youtube][/youtube]
BRAVO!!
*holds lighter high*

Badger
Thank you badger. The audience of one goes nuts! Yet the young miss that the song is dedicated to seems to ignore it.

Odd I seem to be invisible to you? As if I don't exist.

What is wrong Donna did you not get the joke?
It is alot like sex,
Some people just don't get it

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Post by Donna Matrix » Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:04 pm

Chemistry
Main article: History of chemistry
The history of modern chemistry can be taken to begin with the distinction of chemistry from alchemy by Robert Boyle in his work The Sceptical Chymist, in 1661 (although the alchemical tradition continued for some time after this) and the gravimetric experimental practices of medical chemists like William Cullen, Joseph Black, Torbern Bergman and Pierre Macquer. Another important step was made by Antoine Lavoisier (Father of Modern Chemistry) through his recognition of oxygen and the law of conservation of mass, which refuted phlogiston theory. Proof that all matter is made of atoms, which are the smallest constituents of matter that cannot be broken down without losing the basic chemical and physical properties of that matter, was provided by John Dalton in 1803. He also formulated the law of mass relationships. In 1869, Dmitri Mendeleev composed his periodic table of elements on the basis of Dalton's discoveries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of ... rn_science
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Post by Donna Matrix » Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:06 pm

erri - I am busy finding cites... silly little mouse....
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Post by Rob the Wop » Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:08 pm

Donna Matrix wrote:There were many many underground groups during the inquisition that kept their faiths. Jewish ones, Christians one, and probably Islamic ones, but then they were kicked out by Queen E and King F. I never said anything about torture, not was Galileo ever tortured... Where did that come from? It wasn't in the discussion until you brought it up in your post.

I never said that
the scientific basis of Western Civilization, is in fact based upon the belief in Christ.
But I did say
Western Civilization IS based in the Christian religion, there is no dodging that fact.
Still clueless about why the hell you brought up people keeping their faith during the Inquisition or what that has to do with anything.

Let me amend my statement about Western civilization, so as you don't misinterpret my meaning.

Western Civilization is based upon an organized Christian totalitarianistic theocracy. This has very little to do with the actual teachings of Christ.

Better?
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Post by erri2000 » Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:13 pm

Donna Matrix wrote:erri - I am busy finding cites... silly little mouse....
You are going to be a great lawyer Donna
Do you want to know why?
It is alot like sex,
Some people just don't get it

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Post by Donna Matrix » Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:14 pm

Individuals beliefs often were quite different from
organized Christian totalitarianistic theocracy
.

Many "modern" Scientists were "Christian" and the "Church" had little or nothing to do with what they did.

The Church (in what ever day) is often FAR different than individuals beliefs. To equate the two is mis-leading.
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Post by capjbadger » Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:17 pm

Donna Matrix wrote: Chemistry
Main article: History of chemistry
The history of modern chemistry can be taken to begin with the distinction of chemistry from alchemy by Robert Boyle in his work The Sceptical Chymist, in 1661 (although the alchemical tradition continued for some time after this) and the gravimetric experimental practices of medical chemists like William Cullen, Joseph Black, Torbern Bergman and Pierre Macquer. Another important step was made by Antoine Lavoisier (Father of Modern Chemistry) through his recognition of oxygen and the law of conservation of mass, which refuted phlogiston theory. Proof that all matter is made of atoms, which are the smallest constituents of matter that cannot be broken down without losing the basic chemical and physical properties of that matter, was provided by John Dalton in 1803. He also formulated the law of mass relationships. In 1869, Dmitri Mendeleev composed his periodic table of elements on the basis of Dalton's discoveries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of ... rn_science
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemistry

This refutes your incorrect assumption. While yes, Antoine Lavoisier was the catalyst for chemistry to "come of age" and is referred to as the "Father of Modern Chemistry", he is not in fact the source or anywhere close to it. He, like most great men and women in history, stood on the shoulders of giants before him.

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Post by erri2000 » Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:19 pm

Hey Donna Baby?

You there?

I am not going to tell you until you ask.

You are going to be a great lawyer Donna?
Do you want to know why?
It is alot like sex,
Some people just don't get it

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Post by Donna Matrix » Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:20 pm

erri2000 wrote:
Donna Matrix wrote:erri - I am busy finding cites... silly little mouse....
You are going to be a great lawyer Donna
Do you want to know why?
Sure erri... tell me what you think.
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Re: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair

Post by theCryptofishist » Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:27 pm

capjbadger wrote:Oook... I read the first link which still backs up what I was saying about that he was in fear of the church. The had him under house arrest for a good chunk of his life and forced him to recant his heresy (which was usually punishable by death if you didn't have connections in that day and age).
As I recall, they showed him the instruments of torture and he gulped and recanted. I'm sure that they took some tortures from others, but that is a place where they were inventive.
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Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

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Post by erri2000 » Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:28 pm

A friend once told me, who is a lawyer, that he felt law had become not about who was right or wrong, but how much sh*t you could get to stick on the walls.

You are like a freaky monkey!

Now settle down. Lets get back to the game.
It is alot like sex,
Some people just don't get it

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Re: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair

Post by erri2000 » Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:31 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:
capjbadger wrote:Oook... I read the first link which still backs up what I was saying about that he was in fear of the church. The had him under house arrest for a good chunk of his life and forced him to recant his heresy (which was usually punishable by death if you didn't have connections in that day and age).
As I recall, they showed him the instruments of torture and he gulped and recanted. I'm sure that they took some tortures from others, but that is a place where they were inventive.
I miss something. What are you guys talking about?

Edit ---

I found the link, it look very interesting, I will read it now.
It is alot like sex,
Some people just don't get it

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Post by theCryptofishist » Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:32 pm

Since I plonked the fair Donna way back when she insulted people for not jumping on the Ron Paul bandwagon, it's hard for me to know if she's really as stupid and self rightious as everyone's responses would imply. Can someone give me the skivvie?

And where is Oneeyeddick with his ruler to put some order into this thread?
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Re: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair

Post by capjbadger » Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:34 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:
capjbadger wrote:Oook... I read the first link which still backs up what I was saying about that he was in fear of the church. The had him under house arrest for a good chunk of his life and forced him to recant his heresy (which was usually punishable by death if you didn't have connections in that day and age).
As I recall, they showed him the instruments of torture and he gulped and recanted. I'm sure that they took some tortures from others, but that is a place where they were inventive.
Couldn't find anything about that, but I do know they burned a monk at the stake in 1600 for saying the same things Galileo was. I'm sure they reminded him at the time. ;)

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Post by the fire elf » Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:37 pm

it's hard for me to know if she's really as stupid and self rightious as everyone's responses would imply. Can someone give me the skivvie?
it's the taste she leaves in 'me brain...

like she's not even reaching to get out of the mind bot.. er. box

and is seemingly perturbed at those who do...

what the fuck is that here f4?

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Re: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair

Post by erri2000 » Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:39 pm

capjbadger wrote:but I do know they burned a monk at the stake in 1600 for saying the same things Galileo was.
Why didn't they just tell him to take it somewhere else?
Time would tell.
Did they go to the monks house and get him?
Did he do something else wrong?

And they burned a lot of people back then, why Do you know his name?

Am I wrong to say that deserves a big WTF?
It is alot like sex,
Some people just don't get it

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Post by Rob the Wop » Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:40 pm

Donna Matrix wrote:Individuals beliefs often were quite different from
organized Christian totalitarianistic theocracy
.

Many "modern" Scientists were "Christian" and the "Church" had little or nothing to do with what they did.

The Church (in what ever day) is often FAR different than individuals beliefs. To equate the two is mis-leading.
The Roman Catholic Church might disagree with you. Unless you define modern by post 1800s. Even today they have a very loud voice in regards to new research. And to say they had little influence into Western science and art prior to that would be insane.

And to equate individual Christian beliefs with the rise of Western Civilization would also be misleading, wouldn't it? Civilizations are based primarily on who the ruling power is at the time. Or to be more accurate, who has the most influence.
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Post by Rob the Wop » Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:50 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:Since I plonked the fair Donna way back when she insulted people for not jumping on the Ron Paul bandwagon, it's hard for me to know if she's really as stupid and self rightious as everyone's responses would imply. Can someone give me the skivvie?

And where is Oneeyeddick with his ruler to put some order into this thread?
As far as I can tell, she's implying/claiming
a) The physical sciences and what we know as modern devices are a result of Western Civilization (by way of Christianity - though she heavily implies it, but doesn't actually state it)
b) The Roman Catholic Church had no influence on the sciences in 'modern' times (assumption is mid 1400s to late 1700s)
c) Something about the Inquisition and people keeping their faith, which I haven't been able to piece toghether
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Post by mereth » Tue Jan 08, 2008 4:17 pm

OK - BREATHE! Time for an exercise in logic:

At a school, 20 students took a math test. Out of the 20 students 15 of them passed. 15 of the 20 students are girls.
Which one is true?:
a) all the girls passed the test
b) all the boys failed the test
c) a mixture of boys and girls failed the test
d) none of the above

The correct answer is d.
Circumstancially, the "correct" answer is the majority of the girls passed the test.

My point is:
Yes, the "Western World" is commonly attributed (correctly or incorrectly) with the more modern furthering of the sciences and I agree that the majority of these were not initially "invented" by Westerners depending on which definition of "Western" you use:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_world
this wiki gives a good overview about how the definition of "Western" has changed to incorporate or not defferent areas all over Europe, Asia and the rest of the world.
(Perhaps we are simply fighting semantics over what is considered "Western"!)
However, I have to agree with Rob and CapJ: assuming that a Judeo-Christian religious choice meant that you're better at perceiving the world around you and thus doing experiments/developments in order to understand it or solve problems by using it is fallacious at best. The actions heretofore mentioned are those of Man, regardless of religious belief or geography.
Donna, I'm not sure that that's what you're saying though, right?
I will however concede with the statement that all "Western" civilizations (regardless of which version of "Western" you are using) seem to have an inherent need to develop NEW solutions to problems or keep on analyzing something until they've reached what they were looking for whereas many Eastern civilizations had developed things until they were happy and left it at that or until they were interrupted by invading Westerners. It's hard to say which it might be, looking back.
I will concede, Donna, that had Jesus never been around the world would be a different place (though I will not state whether it would be better or worse as I am in no place to judge).

NOW! Getting back to One Eye's last question:

How does God kill whiners?

A. What? God wouldn’t kill people just for complaining.
B. Fire.
C. Earthquakes.
D. Terminal illness.

Donna guessed C. Anyone else want to take a stab at it?

Hey, where's OneEye?

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Post by Simon of the Playa » Tue Jan 08, 2008 4:22 pm

i just talked to my sensei regarding my karma and he said it was ok to nuke you like nagasaki because you are obviously not sentient.


i am preparing my text now......give me time, it takes awhile for the monkey to read my handwriting and type it all in...
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