Corngas...wait a f-in second

[unjonharley]

The state of Or. has just forced 10% corn in our gas tank..

with this I get 20% less mileage..

this means i have to buy 20% more gas to traval the same distance..

90% of this "more" gas is made from oil..

plus i get to spent twice to three time the normal up keep cost..

not to mention the engine power loss..

way to stick it my ass..

[Toolmaker]

Is this an example of what happens when a hippie turns neocon politian?

Make sure yall vote that retard out when the time comes.

Wait a fookin second is right.. Shouldn't we be concentrating on water power or biofuel made from hemp or that grass that provide more cellulose than the corn and are cheaper too?

[thisisthatwhichis]

Yea, prolly the new MTBE forced on consumers b4 they know what the fuck they do when micro-managing .......

That works the same as hawaii's "price cap on gas"....... kewl, they can always charge the top rate.... even when the costs go down.....

[unjonharley]

THat corn gas is tax payed for from the dirt to your tank..

Then your taxed for being forced to buy it..

You have to use more to go the same distance, so your taxed again to go that distance..

and you polute more by burning 20% more fuel..

So now.. after paying to have the stuff made... i have to buy one gal+ to drive 100 miles..

10 00 miles per car owner amounts to 100 gallons in extra fuel.. @$300per gal.. 100gal X how many cars adds up to a bunch of tax..

[Zulegoona]

And those of us who live in major corn producing stats thank you!

[unjonharley]

And those of us who live in major corn producing stats thank you!

That should attract some illegals.
just follow the free money

[Box Burner]

Yeah lets just burn our food crop in our automobile gas tanks. doesn't that just sound like a brilliant idea?

And once it has started the government and corporations can shake hands and make us pay 12 ways from sunday for it because it's good for us. (well it's good for them)

I didn't really like corn anyway I guess.

[can't sit still]

Be reasonable Harley. How do you expect NWO to do major population reductions if they don't drive up the price of food by taking more land out of food poroduction? It doesn't matter that it takes the eqivalent of 1 1/4 gallons of gas to make 1 gallon of ethanol. What's important is the subsidies to Con-Agra and the diminishment of arable land in food production.
It's your little forced contribution to more death in Bangladesh. 30,000 kids under 5 y.o. die every day. With more ethanol, we can get those numbers up to where they make a big difference.
I'm sure that Oregon thinks that they're being "green" It's blood red,,, and no, there isn't any easy answer.
Wheat is expected to go up 44% this year. Thousands are starving in Zimbabwe. You won't see it on the news because the last thing that Americans want is guilt. Sigh,,, I cut my driving down to food trips only. It's just a good screwing all around.

[BoxaRox]

Everybody whines about the cost of fuel.

How high would the price have to go for you to stop buying it?

Whine all you want. That price is coming.

[Kinetik V]

That tank of Ethanol is indirectly responsible for the death of small towns out here in rural Nebraska. The small farmers are being bought up by corporate farms which exist to chase the corn subsidies. Less small farms means less customers for small businesses which end up closing, and you end up with places that drop from city to village status, then as the population heads off to the I-80 corridor you end up with unincorporated villages at best, and essentially ghost towns at worst.

On top of that all that corn sucks up a bunch of fucking water....every one of those center point sprinklers that's visible when people fly over this place sucks water right from the aquifer...where once a hand dug well could hit water, it now costs $20K to dig deep enough to hit water...and if you're lucky you won't hit salt water first.

But look at the bright side. Making corn into ethanol means less corn for making high fructose corn syrup which seems to be in everything made for human consumption these days. So....make your choice. Do you want corn to help spread your ass or do you want it to haul your ass? Think about it...better yet do some research on it. As you learn more you'll want the corn subsidies to stop...and you'll help save small town americana and a way of life that's dwindling faster and faster.

(I'm all for biofuels...providing they're made from switchgrass)

[The CO]

Just a thought, why aren't we using all the fryer grease in Las Vegas to make bio diesel?

[BAS]

Seriously, I believe I read that Las Vegas DOES use their fryer grease to run their public bus system-- which makes a LOT of sense! (As far as I can tell, the best way to go with biodiesel is to have as much waste veg. oil in it as possible. Or run primarily on waste veggie oil, and use biodiesel for starting and stopping.)

Rising gas prices are the reason I am looking for someone to help me make a customized bicycle-- I want something with three or four wheels, and enclosed body, and some cargo capacity for commuting and stopping at the store on the way home from work! I also want to get into using waste vegetable oil, but need a diesel car (and bus) first.

Unjohn is right-- corn ethanol isn't the way to go. It is being promoted primarily due to the corn lobby. A LOT of other sources are better (though none as good as petroleum, because petroleum has had such a long time to accumulate underground and we humans didn't have to do anything to get it there).

[Box Burner]

corn lobby = corporations.

pay attention folks. Corporations have no soul and only go for maximum profits. They do not care who suffers as a consequence.

Ethanol is a good idea. But it is not the answer to all our fuel needs. Certainly not the blanket answer that they seem to think it will be.

The blanket answer is (ta daa) Radical Self Reliance. Now where have we heard that before?

The solution is to use it where it makes the most sense. On farms. A farmer could conver his farm machinery to run on ethanol, and then distill his own fuel. either from biproducts of his crops or from crops that he grows for that purpose, and save on fuel costs.

Do not wait for corporate Ameriika to solve the problem. they are already shaking hands with the Repulicrumbs and Democraps. And when they are done making deals and shaking hands they will turn around with a big smile and give us a wooden nickel.

[BAS]

I've toyed with the idea of running of running for Corngas, maybe as a Green....

[lurker]

unintended consequences.

Stupid ill-thought out ideas chasing 'green' policies bring us this mess.

[BitterDan]

or that grass that provide more cellulose than the corn and are cheaper too?

Switch grass.

And on the same topic, did you know that the Ford Model T ran on ethanol? Do you know why it was converted to gasoline? Because gasoline is a LOT cheaper to produce than ethanol is. This is what it comes down to. If you want to save the planet, it is going to cost you. Just going the cheapest route is what got us into the mess we are in right now. Get used to higher fuel prices, no matter the source.

[unjonharley]

or that grass that provide more cellulose than the corn and are cheaper too?

Switch grass.

And on the same topic, did you know that the Ford Model T ran on ethanol? Do you know why it was converted to gasoline? Because gasoline is a LOT cheaper to produce than ethanol is. This is what it comes down to. If you want to save the planet, it is going to cost you. Just going the cheapest route is what got us into the mess we are in right now. Get used to higher fuel prices, no matter the source.

\/
Aaa, dan, it's hard to understand what you are saying in your last post..

If the goverment in trying to get us to us less gas.. They can put the arm on the auto makers.. it take a bunch of gas to hual one of those fancy cars down the road.. Tax the fuck out of the guy with the big truck to carry his short dicked, ass around town..

So far I have gotten better mileage by: going less and useing a plug in electric for short/store runs and about town.. also I carry the electric in the van.. I drive to a point, get the electric out of the van and away I go.. The electric cost about a dime for 20 miles..Right it's $3.00 in gas for 20 miles.. But that's my math.. I'm sure the goverments or media's math would read it much different..

But they just like talking out both sides of there mouth..

[BitterDan]

If the goverment in trying to get us to us less gas.. They can put the arm on the auto makers.. it take a bunch of gas to hual one of those fancy cars down the road.. Tax the fuck out of the guy with the big truck to carry his short dicked, ass around town..

Considering that nearly every politician is in the pocket of the automobile manufacturing industry, you probably won't see these taxes hit them. So, who absorbs the cost? The consumer does. This is how it's always been and how it will always be. Even if the tax was somehow routed to the manufacturer, the cost will still be passed to the consumer because the manufacturer will simply raise their prices.

I would agree with taxing the guy driving the Hummer a LOT more but, here in California, the governor drives one of those gas-guzzlers so I doubt that law will get passed here.

[BitterDan]

Aaa, dan, it's hard to understand what you are saying in your last post..

Is it? Basically I stated that it is cheaper to produce gasoline from fossil fuel than it is to produce ethanol from biomass. THIS is the number one reason that we use gasoline instead of ethanol. So far, we have yet to discover a fuel source that we can build cheaper than simply using gasoline. Until such a source is discovered, fuel prices will continue to rise (actually the price of gasoline will rise, in the very near future, to the point where these other methods are cheaper and, hence, will become more utilized).

You're right that you have some politicians who "jumping the gun" in my opinion by forcing people to switch to an ethanol blend (by the way, they blend ethanol so you can't drink it. It is, after all, pure moonshine). However, I think their heart is in the right place. By forcing the switch sooner than later they are, in a sense, helping to move alternate energy programs forward. Are they going about it in the wrong way? In my opinion, yes. Will it balance out in the long run, I think so.

[CapSmashy]

Actually, Henry Ford was running all his stuff on hemp oil until it was outlawed.

[CapSmashy]

Now... is this Oregon statute adding 10% over the already federally mandated 10% ethanol additive?

And you do not start seeing any significant fuel millage degradation until you start getting into the 85% ethanol blends, or E85.

At most, you will see a drop of about 1 to 3% in mpg in E10 and E20. Ethanol has 95 to 97% of the energy of gasoline with a higher combustion rate. ANyhting beyond 20% requires modifications to the fuel system.

[BitterDan]

Actually, Henry Ford was running all his stuff on hemp oil until it was outlawed.

Actually it was ethanol from both corn and hemp-based biomass. It wasn't prohibition that stopped him actually, it was the cheaper gasoline fuel source. Ford actually stopped making the Model T in 1927, 10 years before hemp was outlawed.

Not trying to be a smartass, just correcting the facts.

[Toolmaker]

So far, we have yet to discover a fuel source that we can build cheaper than simply using gasoline. Until such a source is discovered, fuel prices will continue to rise (actually the price of gasoline will rise, in the very near future, to the point where these other methods are cheaper and, hence, will become more utilized).

[youtube][/youtube]

[youtube][/youtube]

[youtube][/youtube]

I have a feeling the salt water might be cheaper to get than gas.

Magnets are dandy too

[youtube][/youtube]

Lets not forget about perpetual motion.. been around longer than Ford.

[youtube][/youtube]

[BitterDan]

Hey toolmaker, I'm not sure if you quoted me to discount my statement or just because it's related. I'll answer to each video as I watch them.

Video 1: This "seems" be an interesting concept. However I don't see how his prototype works. I realize that it's "top secret" (which also means it is not available so we cannot estimate a cost relationship between gas and this) but from what I understand about the conversion of H2O into pure hydrogen some sort of catalyst is needed. The video says "an alloy is used' but that could mean any number of metals and combinations of metals. The current hydrogen production methods are strikingly similar to what this person is claiming to have created (I say claiming because we have not been able to examine th inner working of this machine). The problem with current hydrogen production is the use of VERY expensive catalysts (i forgot the actual name of the catalyst) which price it higher than "current" gasoline production rates. The hydrogen engine is great but we expend more power to extract the hydrogen from water than we get back in the form of hydrogen power. I know this video claims to be more efficient (by 1000x) but, again, we have not seen proof of this. If it turns out that he is indeed genuine and this contraption is indeed viable then I could easily see it taking over in the near future. Of course, that would depend on this person making it available at a reasonable price.

Videos 2 & 3 seem bascially the same and both are using a undisclosed catalyst. Like I said above, converting water to hydrogen is nothing new. It just costs more than gasoline production at this time.

Video 4: I have no idea how this thing works. What is powering his "generator" again? It seems to me that he has an electric motor hooked up to a generator and battery. That is not really "free" power considering that you must initially power the electric motor though it may be cheaper power. Again, we'll have to wait for this technology to become publically available before making any judgements.

Video 5: Again, no idea how this works but i do know that mankind has been trying to make a perpetual motion machine for 100 years without success. They have come close and made highly efficient models but, alas, not perpetual. By all laws of physics you cannot have perpetual motion as long as you are effected by gravity and friction. Since gravity is universal, you cannot make a perpetual motion machine. The only way to make it perpetual is to supply it with a source of power to overcome any gravitational and/or effects of friction.

[BitterDan]

And I should mention that I am not trying to be a know-it-all or anything like that. You have just caught me on an unusually philosophical and contemplative day. By no means do I claim to know the answers to all of our modern problems but the debate and exploration helps me to clarify my own views of such things.

[unjonharley]

Before we drift to far,,

If I lose 4 mpg driving on 10% corn gas.. @20mpg means I lose 20% of my mileage..

yesterday I could drive 100 miles on 5 gallons of gas..

today i can only go 80 miles on the same amount of gas..

now i must buy another gallon to complet my trip.. total 6 gal.

of that 6 gallon .6 gallon was corn gas..

instead of burning 5 gal of gas, i burn 5.4 gal. per 100 miles..

this .4 X 10 ooo miles per year X how many cars..

that's when I start calling bullsshit

[BitterDan]

Other than your saying so, I do not know that you have lost 20% of your mileage. I can only take your word for it. Just a little research (we're talking 2 minutes here) I discovered this:

Q: Doesn’t the use of ethanol-blended fuel cause a decrease in fuel mileage?
A: There are so many variables that relate to fuel mileage, such as the season, the weather, how the vehicle may be driven, etc., that it is hard for the average vehicle owner to accurately check fuel mileage. Every vehicle is somewhat different in driveability characteristics, as well. Some carbureted vehicles that run rich may experience an increase in fuel economy. The most current information derived from controlled environmental testing is that on fuel injected vehicles, fuel mileage may decrease by approximately 2%. A vehicle that averages 30 MPG on the highway would average 29.4 MPG using ethanol-blended fuel, a small price to pay for a cleaner environment.

Source

[unjonharley]

Dan, I m going by the state hand out to the media..

very few car get 30 mpg..

anything above is the auto makers #'s

[BitterDan]

I won't call you a liar and you make a valid point if what you say is true.

BTW, I posted responses to the other vids in my post above if you are interested.

[unjonharley]

lets not forget that it take 3/4+ gallon of gas to produce the .6 gallon of corn gas I burn per 100 miles travel..

that don't look like the greater good to me..