This is for all threads to goto about www.stopburningman.org

[sparks]

I'm afraid you may have missed my point.

Data and facts no longer matter once people feel they are being attacked. By your group's actions--which I've already illustrated--the community that you were trying to reach was moved into an emotional point of view that now feels you're trying to attack it and now it doesn't trust you.

It doesn't matter how good or accurate your data is. You have to win hearts and minds in this situation. Instead, your group's actions have only hardened the heart of this community. Until that changes, you're metaphorically pissing in the wind.

It may not be right or fair, but you've still got to do deal with it.

This community thinks it's under attack by your group. Until your group does something to change that perception, you're not going to get anywhere.

Data and facts no longer matter? Okay, I see where you're coming from. We're speaking two different languages here. I'm the type of person who evaluates facts or data regardless of the messenger, while only evaluating the credibility of the source. On the other hand, you say that it's about 'winning hearts and minds'. If I was pushing my own opinions, I would expect people to take that point of view, but since the information that I'm supporting is not an opinion of my own, I can't personally relate to your frame of mind. That's fine... people have different ways of seeing things. Those who want to evaluate the information know where it is, and those who need their hearts and minds won in order to evaluate data from an outside source are unreachable at this point. In light of how this whole thing has gone, I can accept that, and I think I've done all I can here.

To those who chose to stop slinging insults around and started being calm and collected (Zane, etc), thank you, it's very appreciated.

-Rodney

[Zane5100]

Data and facts no longer matter? Okay, I see where you're coming from. We're speaking two different languages here. I'm the type of person who evaluates facts or data regardless of the messenger, while only evaluating the credibility of the source. On the other hand, you say that it's about 'winning hearts and minds'. If I was pushing my own opinions, I would expect people to take that point of view, but since the information that I'm supporting is not an opinion of my own, I can't personally relate to your frame of mind. That's fine... people have different ways of seeing things. Those who want to evaluate the information know where it is, and those who need their hearts and minds won in order to evaluate data from an outside source are unreachable at this point. In light of how this whole thing has gone, I can accept that, and I think I've done all I can here.

To those who chose to stop slinging insults around and started being calm and collected (Zane, etc), thank you, it's very appreciated.

-Rodney

Thank you for your willingness to discuss this.

Collective mindset and individual mindset have quite different dynamics. Trying to reason with a group is not the same as reasoning with a person one-on-one. It can be done, but the skills involved are not the same. People think differently when they are responding as part of a group than they do on their own.

Once a group feels it's been attacked, it can do some very spooky things that are not altogether rational. Humans defending their "group" can be exceptionally vicious in their defense. Defusing that feeling is tough to do, and it requires a real change in language and mannerisms.

To risk repeating myself, there is still a chance that your group can present its information and your case made--but now there exists some very significant hurdles in the way. Your group needs to radically change its tactics, if it wants to succeed in communicating its message.

If the other members of your group are not ready to change their methods, then it's quite probable that the two groups are at an impasse.

It's not impossible, but it's going to take a fuckload of creativity and work to get in the door now. There's now a shitload of baggage that is associated with this discussion, regardless of what your group does next.

Remember: even if you’re right, you still have to sell it.

Hint #1: Change the site name from "stopburningman" and quit using inflammatory handles. People are not going to ignore that, let alone feel okay about it.

[precipitate]

> You people here criticise me based upon feeling emtion and expressing
> it here?

Oh no, I really don't give a rat's ass about the content. I was simply
criticizing your abysmal use of the English language.

[Rob the Wop]

Hint #2-
Remove insulting language from your Website. This includes "subtle" digs that anyone going to Burning Man is a mindless sheep. Example-

"For years you have been spoon fed propaganda by your controllers, your Larry Harvey, your Maid Marian, and the rest of their faithful followers."

Hint #3-
Don't give the appearance of a having a hidden agenda.
The pictures you claim are from 5 years ago that show people in your group tearing up the playa are known. When you set arguments like-

"We have found 24 inch pieces of rebar in vertical orientations.
Do you want to hit something like that at even 30 mph on the playa?
Do you think landsailers want to hit that stuff? Of course not."

You seem to sanction landsailing, which tears up the playa at 80mph+. It also gives the impression, given your past history with doing brodies on the playa, that maybe you simply want to be able to tear it up like you did in the past- and are using the landsailing example to cover your true intentions.

If you were truely worried about marring the playa surface, why aren't you against anyone flying along over 30mph? Weren't you decrying the destruction of macrobiological life on the playa? Can you see our point of view that people with hidden agendas (know any governmental officials that fit this bill?) might not bring forth the most reliable data?

Hint #4-
You haven't contacted BMORG apparently. They will be the ones that will have to implement the changes you propose. Business relationships start with communication. Vilefying them in a public forum (which they allow you the priveledge to do) automatically puts you on bad footing. This likewise gives the impression of a group uninterested in solving the problem, but instead performing no action but slander.

These actions erode your credibility. People can fake documents and pictures. The only time you would believe someone would do this is when the group producing the data appears fanatical, irrational, or to have a hidden agenda.

[BlueBirdPoof]

Did you knwo that on this board I have been told
1. kill myself
2. I am a corporate raider wantign to buy land
3. I am a geote. . .

for a total of 10

Dang it people--we forgot whiner!

allanon2--You had a gold plated opportunity to come in here and say "I was there way back when. . .I was at a clean-up when such and such happened. . ." in other words to create a narrative that would have drawn us in on YOUR side (if there is any merit to it.) What I learned from the best berkeley liberal public school teachers was to suspect grandiose statements of fact backed by an expectation of instant acceptance and obidience. I have no faith that my classmates learned substantially the same lessons. In fact, I tend to suspect that the moral and civics lessons learned in school can have little relation to the actual peadagogy used.

Do you talk down to your students and then retreat into maudlin musing about what favors you're doing to them?

[Badger]

All are really good points.

At this stage of the fuck fest though it reminds me of any number of events I've been to (or worked at) where the crowd has gone, the lights in the auditorium are slowly getting shut off and the janitor has come into the hall with his big broom. Nothing to see here. Watching someone piss off an ant hill is only entertaining for so long.

Personally, there's not much that anyone of the SBM.org fuck-o's could do to ever get me to take them seriously in any way. Even the most seemingly lucid of the bunch side-skirts every salient objection any of the the folks here have brought up.

[BlueBirdPoof]

But having been churned up, I'm still suffering from lots of staircase wit. . .

A little bad French is a terrible thing.

[Zane5100]

Personally, there's not much that anyone of the SBM.org fuck-o's could do to ever get me to take them seriously in any way. Even the most seemingly lucid of the bunch side-skirts every salient objection any of the the folks here have brought up.

I said there was a chance--maybe not a good one--but perhaps a very remote one.

Sort of.

Kinda.

Maybe.


I'm trying to be positive... if anything just to be contrary.

[bgirl]

> I am a teacher now.

Owie.[/quote)

Then Allanon2 wrote:

(quote)sigh people are idiots and thats the main reason i got into teaching to help stop the next generation from being so closed minded and learn to think for themselves.

just amazing just amazing

Allanon2 ,you are truely amazing ,"people are idiots," huh.Like anyone would want their child to be taught by someone possesing such an inherent disrespect towards human beings.Maybe ,if you looked at the way you choose to approach or think about people ,you would have more success in your ability to enlighten or teach them something you deem important.

[Rob the Wop]

i dotn know, i thinc that allanon wuld make a wodnerflu Englash teechur. he shows ggreat promies for teachign my keds how two reed and wrighte.

[Rob the Wop]

Y'know, I need to quit taking pot shots.
But it's just so damn easy that its hard to resist the urge.

[blyslv]

[I have 50 or 60 emails/letters (from a FOIA with BLM) from residents in gerlach and empire that say to BLM don't have the event
they say this for a varieity of reasons.

Based on you behavior, I think you're lying, plain and simple.

[BlueBirdPoof]

I can believe that there's a diversity of opinion, some of it hostile, in Gerlach about Burning Man. I don't know that that's a good reason to stop the festival.

NIMBYism aint ever pretty and it's hard to decide when meritous arguements end and "It's just annoying to me" begins. And I think that a homeless shelter in Orinda deserves serious consideration.

[BlueBirdPoof]

Y'know, I need to quit taking pot shots.
But it's just so damn easy that its hard to resist the urge.

You know Rob, what I'm wondering about is if "racing high-speed across the playa after the seventh beer" was meant as praise, or in the context of this conversation, subtle damnation. Oh well, he felt vindicated; and if that shuts him up or calms him down, good enough.

[blyslv]

I can believe that there's a diversity of opinion, some of it hostile, in Gerlach about Burning Man. I don't know that that's a good reason to stop the festival.

Yeah, there're probably some Gerlach residents who would prefer that the event not happen. I just doubt that 50 or 60 bothered to write letters to the sbm.org people.

[Chai Guy]

I just doubt that 50 or 60 bothered to write letters to the sbm.org people

I guess I didn't even realize that 50 or 60 people lived in Gerlach.

[allanon2]

I can believe that there's a diversity of opinion, some of it hostile, in Gerlach about Burning Man. I don't know that that's a good reason to stop the festival.

Yeah, there're probably some Gerlach residents who would prefer that the event not happen. I just doubt that 50 or 60 bothered to write letters to the sbm.org people.

umm read the post
it said from a FOIA with BLM from past events.

and thats is what i mean by idiots. And non informned peopel can't be idiots. but many people can be if they are informned yet don't listen/read.

to me idiots are people that don't think for themselves, one that blindly follow others and not think for themselves.

[BlueBirdPoof]

And what I mean by idiot--and by rudeness--is not being able to properly use the quote feature, thereby misrepresenting what I say.

(When I wrote this I could have sworn that his post didn't have the external quote around my internal one. Oh well. Edited once to admit foolishness in hopes of looking slightly less foolish.)

[Zane5100]

...so much for radical changes in tactics.

[BlueBirdPoof]

"to me idiots are people that don't think for themselves, one that blindly follow others and not think for themselves."

Anyone else under the impression that our supposed ovinity would be less of a problem if he were the shepherd?

[Chai Guy]

This is interesting (if a little dated). I had no idea there were 500 people living out there (but I guess most of them would be considered to be living in Empire rather than Gerlach). And did you know that even back in 2000 Burning Man contributed to 30% in commercial sales to the local economy? I'm guessing that it's probably gone up since then because our population has tripled (from 10,000).

Gerlach-Empire is a town located in Washoe County, Nevada. As of the 2000 census, the town had a total population of 499.


Geography
Gerlach-Empire is located at 40°37'22" North, 119°20'29" West (40.622883, -119.341273)1.

According to the United States Census Bureau, the town has a total area of 243.6 km² (94.1 mi²). 243.6 km² (94.1 mi²) of it is land and none of it is covered by water.


Demographics
As of the census of 2000, there are 499 people, 234 households, and 146 families residing in the town. The population density is 2.0/km² (5.3/mi²). There are 297 housing units at an average density of 1.2/km² (3.2/mi²). The racial makeup of the town is 91.18% White, 0.00% African American, 2.81% Native American, 0.20% Asian, 0.00% Pacific Islander, 4.61% from other races, and 1.20% from two or more races. 11.02% of the population are Hispanic or Latino of any race.

There are 234 households out of which 26.1% have children under the age of 18 living with them, 48.3% are married couples living together, 9.8% have a female householder with no husband present, and 37.2% are non-families. 34.2% of all households are made up of individuals and 6.8% have someone living alone who is 65 years of age or older. The average household size is 2.13 and the average family size is 2.71.

In the town the population is spread out with 22.6% under the age of 18, 7.0% from 18 to 24, 31.5% from 25 to 44, 29.5% from 45 to 64, and 9.4% who are 65 years of age or older. The median age is 38 years. For every 100 females there are 116.0 males. For every 100 females age 18 and over, there are 120.6 males.

The median income for a household in the town is $35,089, and the median income for a family is $43,125. Males have a median income of $36,000 versus $23,056 for females. The per capita income for the town is $14,793. 14.6% of the population and 10.3% of families are below the poverty line. Out of the total people living in poverty, 15.8% are under the age of 18 and 12.7% are 65 or older.


Economy
The economy of Gerlach and Empire focus on gypsum mining near Empire and tourism in the nearby Black Rock Desert. For over five years, Burning Man, a week long countercultural festival with over 10,000 participants has been held nearby. Due to the appearance of the participants, local enthusiasm is mixed, but the event is responsible for over 30% of the sales in most of the commercial establishments in the area.

[michaelmichael]

Allanon2, Michael2. Welcome home. It would be honor to visit your camp at Trego. Thank you. Without proof, you have proven that a small group can have a large effect. The environment you have to save is bigger than Black Rock and the world you have to change is larger than ePlaya. A webpage dedicated to bionomics will help both. For all of this, Burning Man is our best hope.

[blyslv]

Chaiguy, awesome post.

My first year I met a young woman from Gerlach. She gave me a very pretty gift and told me that she was really enjoying the event and was glad for it's presence. Her parents on the other hand...
-------------------------------------------
iz hred 2 B an iodit.

[Isotopia]

I'd do darshan with Bill at the Gerlach Texaco any chance I get.

His message is you don't even have to pretend to like someone if you really don't like them.

[aforceforgood]

to me idiots are people that don't think for themselves, one that blindly follow others and not think for themselves.

And yet you insist that because we don't blindly accept what you say is true that we're idiots. Hopefully critical thinking is not one of the subjects you teach your students if you're that bad at it yourself.

We have asked you over and over again for some real evidence from independent sources.

Kindly present some or please shut the fuck up.

[aforceforgood]

I wanted to post this last night, but I had just recommended we stop feeding the troll, so it seemed hypocritical, and lord knows we've had enough of that lately... plus it seemed to be working, at least for a little while- it was kind of nice to pop back onto the thread and almost hear crickets chirping, as a lone figure down on the theater floor ranted on, his voice echoing onto empty seats... but since I guess we're still feeding the troll...

And the 2004 award for most egregious, stupid, and transparent use of a sock puppet goes to.... the stopbmorg people!

Really, you're not very good at this, that was obviously an attempt to prove/show that the stopbmorg people are burners, and burners who were there at the very beginning, as if that would make their comments somehow more worthy of consideration.

Shut the fuck up until you have some evidence to support your conclusion.

Does this count as feeding the troll? I'm sorry, but I just couldn't resist poking fun at this...

michaelmichael
Joined: 22 Jan 2004
Posts: 1
Location: Earth

RexSkates... hummm? ...the data string registers dimly in memory but it was the webpage visual which trips facial recognition.....early Cacophony Society. I knew you then... computers, costumers, music & dancing in the dark unclaimed corners of SF, the parties at the GG house...racing high-speed across the playa after the seventh beer and the glow of neon.

We were a part what created this thing.

How have you been?

-michael2

yes i came out of email lurking to say hello.

Michael yep its me. we have spent a good 4 years together.

been doing well. I am a teacher now. Did a 5 year stint running a sterile MFg. facilty. Like to make homemade fireworks, do blacksmithings, I still teach/attend dances and yes still into computers.
glad to see your still around. If you ever get a chnace stop by trego duringthe Burn weekend and say hello. We have a encapment there for the last 5 years or so.

Please. Go back to the children's table.

If you'd like to refute the idea that the various stopbmorg people are socks, then a picture of you guys with your left finger in your right ear and holding up 3 fingers on your right hand posted here would do nicely. Any other denials will be ignored so please don't waste our time. Thanks.

[Badger]

Once a group feels it's been attacked, it can do some very spooky things that are not altogether rational. Humans defending their "group" can be exceptionally vicious in their defense.

No apologies from this playan.

None.

The stick was stuck in the wrrrrrong fucking hole. I'm watching.

Know that.

[Tancorix]

When I first came onboard the old e-playa there was some discussion about if I was a sock puppet. I was requested to post a picture of the two people in question with our left hand to our right ear and after that the sock puppet discussion evaporated faster than a light shower on the playa in August.

If the sbg.org group wants to restore credibility, AFFG's request would go a long ways towards rebuilding the bridge to our community. It's not that expensive to implement and wouldn't take long to do either.

So I second AFFG's request. Right now this discussion has all the hallmarks of a master sock puppeteer running 4-5 different socks at once, again something I tried not long ago to understand how it works. I see a lot of similarities here from posting techniques to strategies and more. Anyway post a picture and the sock thing goes away. Otherwise, does anyone have some Clorox 2 they could quickly run over to these people if they gave us valid addresses? It's smelling kinda rank in here, like dirty socks.

And as good as the software is, AFFG's suggestion is hard to forge in Photoshop. So the doctored photo argument won't be a problem.

[Chai Guy]

If you'd like to refute the idea that the various stopbmorg people are socks, then a picture of you guys with your left finger in your right ear and holding up 3 fingers on your right hand posted here would do nicely. Any other denials will be ignored so please don't waste our time. Thanks.

While it seems like a good idea at first glance, couldn't you just round up 3 friends and snap a picture and post it? I'm not exactly sure how such a picture would refute the idea that these are sock puppets.

I still have a theory about this guy, he went to Burning Man and got shunned somehow, maybe he was a volunteer and got kicked off a project or maybe his girlfriend dumped him at the event for another guy who works for Burning Man LLC. There is just way to much animosity directed towards Larry and Co. to be just an "environmentalist" or even some yahoo trying to drive his Dodge Neon on the playa (I seriously doubt the event would really interfere with that in anyway).

[aforceforgood]

true, it's not foolproof, but I doubt even one picture will surface. Those posts from michaelmichael and alannon were way too "focused" if you catch my drift, even while they tried to appear not to be in a basic childlike fashion.

It's kind of telling, given the subject matter, that they surfaced as posts rather than as pms, now isn't it?

I'm sure many others including myself agree with your analysis of him.