Scientology

[Box Burner]

I say we follow, Stranger in a Strange Land ...!

FYI Stranger In A Strange Land was not written by L. Ron Hubbard. It was written by Robert Heinlein. A very good book, well worth the read.

[Green Wood]

I say we follow, Stranger in a Strange Land ...!

FYI Stranger In A Strange Land was not written by L. Ron Hubbard. It was written by Robert Heinlein. A very good book, well worth the read.

Did I say that it was written by Hubbard?

No!

We can take any Sifi book and it can become anyone's religion even a cook book!

AZ

[Rob the Wop]

Higher Evolution equal higher compassion and empathy.

HUGE assumption. If you look around you at how animals evolve, you would be hard pressed to say they are very compassionate or emphathetic. If you look at the entirety of our history, you would say the same.

From a strict standpoint of "survival of the fittest", compassion and empathy are at the bottom of the list. How do we know whether this isn't what a hypothetical God wanted? Methinks thou projects desires not generally known in nature.

[Box Burner]

I say we follow, Stranger in a Strange Land ...!

FYI Stranger In A Strange Land was not written by L. Ron Hubbard. It was written by Robert Heinlein. A very good book, well worth the read.

Did I say that it was written by Hubbard?

No!

We can take any Sifi book and it can become anyone's religion even a cook book!

AZ

Sorry. I figured you knew who wrote the book. did not want anyone else to think it was by L Ron Hubbard.

Your point is well taken.

[BAS]

Higher Evolution equal higher compassion and empathy.

HUGE assumption. If you look around you at how animals evolve, you would be hard pressed to say they are very compassionate or emphathetic. If you look at the entirety of our history, you would say the same.

From a strict standpoint of "survival of the fittest", compassion and empathy are at the bottom of the list. How do we know whether this isn't what a hypothetical God wanted? Methinks thou projects desires not generally known in nature.

While waiting for some floor polish to dry a week or two ago, I read an old science magazine article about dinosaurs, and came to the conclusion that evolution can lead to some pretty goofy critters! (There was one which, as far as anyone can determine, which evolved to eat ferns which grew in abundance along the rivers in the region-- long neck so it didn't burn extra energy moving, lots of little teeth for stripping the ferns, extremely fragile jaw, and some other, odd features I no longer recall. It was a whole, illustrated article about strange dinosaurs.)

Anyway, evolution can take some strange turns, and what it considers "higher" really depends upon the circumstances.

[Apollonaris Zeus]

Higher Evolution equal higher compassion and empathy.

HUGE assumption. If you look around you at how animals evolve, you would be hard pressed to say they are very compassionate or emphathetic. If you look at the entirety of our history, you would say the same.

From a strict standpoint of "survival of the fittest", compassion and empathy are at the bottom of the list. How do we know whether this isn't what a hypothetical God wanted? Methinks thou projects desires not generally known in nature.

A year or more ago, a child fell into the Gorilla exhibit and a large female that had given birth, but was without offspring at this time took the baby into its arms comforting it and protecting it from the males until one of the keepers came and retrived it without incident. There are many other incidents of animals from domestic to wild that have been recorded. I believe that it is an awareness that is a part of all life and those that are higher of intelligence have a greater need to help and protect the diversity of life.

We help to protect animals that are endangered could an Alien life form have those feelings for us? I believe so.

AIIZ

[Ugly Dougly]

"Higher" evolution = myth
Evolution = Adaptation to changing stimuli

Will you look, at that I'm becoming a fucking math teacher.

[Rob the Wop]

Higher Evolution equal higher compassion and empathy.

HUGE assumption. If you look around you at how animals evolve, you would be hard pressed to say they are very compassionate or emphathetic. If you look at the entirety of our history, you would say the same.

From a strict standpoint of "survival of the fittest", compassion and empathy are at the bottom of the list. How do we know whether this isn't what a hypothetical God wanted? Methinks thou projects desires not generally known in nature.

A year or more ago, a child fell into the Gorilla exhibit and a large female that had given birth, but was without offspring at this time took the baby into its arms comforting it and protecting it from the males until one of the keepers came and retrived it without incident. There are many other incidents of animals from domestic to wild that have been recorded. I believe that it is an awareness that is a part of all life and those that are higher of intelligence have a greater need to help and protect the diversity of life.

We help to protect animals that are endangered could an Alien life form have those feelings for us? I believe so.

AIIZ

Mothers in the wild sometimes take different species as offspring, this is thought to be in part due to hormonal changes during and after pregancy. These hormonal reactions are vital, otherwise they would have a tendency to eat their own young.
But the vast majoity of the time, omni/carnivores eat other species young. Quite often as a dietary staple, as a matter of fact.
The space aliens think we're a food source by your logic.

[can't sit still]

Dolphins are pretty smart. Does that make them compassionate?
http://www.sexwork.com/family/dolphinrape.html

[theCryptofishist]

Finallly saw that Tom Cruise recruitment video this week and I'm still furious at the asshole. That remark about stopping at auto accidents...

If'n he's ever at a crash, I hope no emts stop by.

*stomach churning*

[DaddyMassive]

The problem with Scientology is it's right up there with the 21st Century. Being savy with modern principles like capitlism, litigation, psychology, mass-media and the internet, strikes a little too close to home at times.

The major religions have been peddling their brand of shit for so long that they've become somewhat marginalised and tame.
And you can recognise the fanatics cos they more oftern than not a wearing silly clothes (not just the muslims!) and shouting God said ....!

In my opinion, it's a mass movement/cult/religion that charges considerable amounts of money for advice on how to be nice to be people & happy with yourself, and employs psychological methods of tantilising secret inclusion and intimidating exclusion on people. Kinda similar to alot of other stuff I try to ignore in life.

But Scientology keeps popping up when I'm trying to enjoy myself.
I was so pissed off when I found out about My Name Is Earl's links to THEM!! & Beck's never quite felt the same after I discovered he was one.

However, I can't seem to get rid of them so maybe I should start having fun with them like I do with the Jehovah's Witnesses.

By the way... I LOVED Battlefield Earth! Watching it was kinda like having a huge shit. Mostly painful, at times eyewatering and I think I passed out towards the end but staring back at what I had accomplished, I couldn't help but feel happy for it being a part of my life experience.

[Isotopia]

The problem with Scientology

The problem is, well, see for yourself. This from Tom Cruise's latest SciTol rant.

The Hollywood actor - who was left furious after a video of him making several absurd claims about the sci-fi cult was leaked onto the internet last week - is seen ridiculing psychiatry and boasting about Scientology's ability to treat drug addicts in new footage.

In the latest clip, which briefly appeared on video-sharing website YouTube before being removed, he says: "We actually have an easier time getting people off heroin and methadone than these psychiatric drugs, and I've worked very diligently to educate people about this. We have the ability to be able to fight drug companies to be able to crush these guys."

Staring intently into the camera, Cruise adds: "Oh, I'm going hard on those guys, and their reign - psychiatrists. I've had, I mean, I've absolutely had it. It's disgusting to me. No mercy - none. Psychiatry doesn't work.

If ya really wanna know the secrets all you have to do is Google:

01/23/2008 08:55 AM 17,788,660 The OTs LEVELS.pdf

to get the whole 84.1 GB of Scientology documents. (NOTE: we're talking
thousands of pages here.) Google results will be many but the best is located at the http://thepiratebay.org/tor/3992707 which is a BitTorrent file. You can easily download the file and then open it with a nice little cross-platform program called TransmissionBT http://www.transmissionbt.com/screenshots.php

These are the papers that Cruise, Travolta, etc. paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to sit and read so they could get 'clear.'

The only thing clear to me is the level of bullshit in the texts. Still, it'd be interesting to see them projected on the Man throughout the week of the event.

BTW, I had NOTHING to do with the posting or actual distribution of these files.

[mereth]

http://www.religioustolerance.org/scientol4.htm

I posted this link earlier in this thread and am copy/pasting the main part of the article again since I have a feeling none of you have/will read it if I don't:

Copyright conflicts on the Internet:
Starting in 1994, the Church of Scientology began to aggressively defend their copyright on a number of confidential unpublished Church materials that had been stolen and posted to the Internet. These legal cases mark the first time that copyright law was applied to the new digital frontier of the Internet and helped evolve precedents that now safeguard the rights of artists, software developers, businesses and all others on this medium.
The use of copyright law by religious organizations is not new. In fact, the widely distributed Gideon Bible contains the following preface to its Revised Standard Version:

"Because of unhappy experience with unauthorized publication in the two decades between 1881 and 1901, which tampered with the text of the English Revised Version in the supposed interest of the American public, the American Standard Version was copyrighted, to protect the text from unauthorized changes."

Legal precedents in application of copyright law to religious materials have been set already by cases brought forward involving the Seventh Day Adventists, Methodists and Church of Christ, Scientist. As a result, courts in the United States fully recognize that religious use of copyright law is totally appropriate for safeguarding religious doctrine.

For example, in a 1986 decision the Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia, in a case involving the First Church of Christ, Scientist, commented that:

"religious works are eligible for protection under general copyright laws, and for decades Science and Health [the central theological text of the Christian Science faith] was unproblematically the beneficiary of that security, as more than thirty editions and translations of the Bible currently are."

Consequently the Church of Scientology in applying copyright protection to its scriptures on the Internet was forwarding an already well-applied tradition of religion to use secular laws to maintain the purity of its religious doctrine and materials.

The unpublished Church of Scientology materials that had been posted to the Internet were advanced works that had been stolen from a Scientology church in Denmark. Although the culprit was arrested and convicted of the crime, the materials had been copied and sent into the United States. Altered versions of the materials then made their way onto the Internet and into other court cases in an effort to make these confidential materials public . The Church regards these materials as confidential because they represent advanced levels in the religion for which an individual needs to be spiritual prepared. Such a belief in Scientology is as basic as the resurrection is to Protestants or as important as literal interpretation of the Bible is to Fundamental Christians. It is an inviolable stricture of the faith.

In this regard again the Church of Scientology is no different than other religions. While the vast majority of Scientology scriptures are openly available to anyone, the maintaining of unpublished, confidential scriptures for those initiated in the faith is a well-documented tradition that religious scholars recognize.

Professor Darrol Bryant at the University of Waterloo in Ontario Canada has stated that:

"The distinction between 'esoteric knowledge' available only to initiates, and 'exoteric knowledge' available to all, has long been part of the religious life of humankind. The distinction is commonly based on the belief that only those initiated in a particular tradition or having achieved a certain level of spiritual development should have access to the esoteric or higher teachings."

Another scholar, Dr. Lonnie Kliever of Southern Methodist University finds this distinction in other religions including ancient Judaism, early Christianity, some forms of Hinduism, Zen Buddhism and Gnostic groups. Dr. Kliever characterizes the Church of Scientology as having "...a religious duty and legal right..." to keep some of its materials confidential.

Consequently, courts around the world have recognized the Church of Scientology's proprietary interests in protecting their spiritual material from unauthorized release.

I'm not interested in arguing this point.

That said: can we please be done with this thread already?
Enough is enough.

[Isotopia]

can we please be done with this thread already?
Enough is enough.

Remember Mereth, your option is to make the choice to not read this thread if you feel enough is enough.

BTW, I don't believe hardly anyone's not aware of the copyright issues that the CoS has brought to bear not only in the courts but on the internet. It really isn't a point worth arguing in this forum. Wrestling with pigs and all of that. Still, I like that there's still enough monkey-wrenching, wild asses in the world who challenge laws and their applications to organizations that seek to make a business out of a belief system.

[mereth]

Remember Mereth, your option is to make the choice to not read this thread if you feel enough is enough.

Fair enough. Notice how I haven't posted on this thread much recently. I was hoping it would die out through neglect, just like any other thread.
Unfortunately, I don't have a way to plonk this thread so it stays off my radar, though and it just BOTHERS me (if I can use as mild a term as that) that I'm the only one here trying to say anything other than negative things about a subject that is near and dear to my heart.
I know that Scientology/religion in general is a fish in an orca tank on this forum, but that doesn't mean I should stop swimming to attempt to get the fish out of the pool.

[Rob the Wop]

I question the religious tolerance website. I've heard rumors that its backed by Scientology. I have no way of knowing whether this is true or not, but some of the reading I've done on that website makes me seriously question their impartiality.

Regardless, it looks like the same spin put on the record company's persuit of copyright infringement. Europe has a different viewpoint on copyrights than we do.

My personal opinion is that religious doctrine should be freely available. All of it. For any religion. The concept that you must be 'prepared' for reading it is ludicris. I can get advanced books on any of the physical sciences. Simply the fact that I may not understand them means nothing.

In this context, 'prepared' seems more akin to 'brainwashed'. If I need to think enough in a specific manner before I can 'see the light', then I simply wouldn't understand. Let people make their own descisions about a belief system by being open about it.

[dana]

Finallly saw that Tom Cruise recruitment video this week and I'm still furious at the asshole. That remark about stopping at auto accidents...

time for the devil's advocate?

Somehow I missed the horror in that video clip. As far as Cruise' zealous enthusiasm, have you ever spent much time talking to some extreme athletes (kayakers, climbers etc.) Some of them sound even worse. I actually read one guy referring to a certain run as "ultra-nectar". Cracked me up!
The auto accident comment seems more to point out that a lot of people are pretty oblivious to a lot of the day to day suffering of our fellow humans. Getting involved and trying to make some difference is a moral idea put out there by most religions, I think.
The only thing which I could really hold against Cruise applies equally well to most religions. They never seem to get it that what works for some people is garbage to someone else. Its not like we have some universally accepted standard to judge these things by.




Thats my 2 dollars worth. Please leave your donation in the dish on your way out.

it just BOTHERS me (if I can use as mild a term as that) that I'm the only one here trying to say anything other than negative things about a subject that is near and dear to my heart.

For what its worth Mereth, I plan on giving a big hug and big sloppy kiss to the next Scientologist that I meet.

provided she's cute and seems receptive....

[mereth]

Dana, thank you for the "Devil's advocate"...

To add to that:
There is a well-known (at least amongst Scientologists) policy/reference that first-aid always comes first and indeed that trying to help someone spiritually when they are under physical duress/pain or there is some underlying physical problem does nothing or even makes them worse. You're supposed to handle the physical problem first - that way they don't have their attention stuck on their body/the physical half of the equation.
Amongst Scientologists, this is a given - a DUH.

And I would always always ask if someone WANTS help, first.

And Dana, I'd be more than happy to be a recipient of said

big hug and big sloppy kiss

. As far as my cuteness: well, my measurements are...

[dana]

first-aid always comes first and indeed that trying to help someone spiritually when they are under physical duress/pain or there is some underlying physical problem does nothing or even makes them worse.

Yeah. There's a quote I heard: When you meet a person who is starving, do you start talking to them about how they "create their own reality" or do you give them a sandwich and see if they want the ideas later.

And Dana, I'd be more than happy to be a recipient of said

big hug and big sloppy kiss

. As far as my cuteness: well, my measurements are...

Damn!! Another reason to make sure I make it to BM this year!
standing invites!!

[mereth]

Yeah. There's a quote I heard: When you meet a person who is starving, do you start talking to them about how they "create their own reality" or do you give them a sandwich and see if they want the ideas later.

Give them a damned sandwich, DUH. That's usually ALL I'd do.

If they stick around afterwards, ask them what's going on that they don't have food and go from there if they seem to be interested in further discussion. The ultimate answer might be something stupid-simple like they forgot their lunchbag at home that day and you could help them with suggestions on how to remember their lunch like leaving yourself a sticky on the front door. If they take the sandwich and head for the hills or are otherwise uninterested in discussion on the subject, then be glad that you helped someone eat and leave it at that. That's the MOST I'd do.

As I've said earlier, though, I'm leaving my religion at the gate. If someone comes up to me at BM and wants to know more about Scientology, I'll get their contact data and tell them I'll talk to them about it after the burn.
Is that an equitable solution for everyone?

[dana]

As I've said earlier, though, I'm leaving my religion at the gate. If someone comes up to me at BM and wants to know more about Scientology, I'll get their contact data and tell them I'll talk to them about it after the burn.
Is that an equitable solution for everyone?

Naw, you're over-reacting and being defensive.

I've had some great conversations at BM about my own beliefs. Its a big community. I happen to believe that its possible to gravitate towards people with whom you'll have some really fun (not superficial or perfunctory) conversations.

or you could find yourself talking to a complete embicile....

How did I create this!!! lol

[theCryptofishist]

Dana, do you know how my husband died? That fucking weak bastard has no fucking bussiness saying that crap if he can't stand up to my heat, thank you very much.

[dana]

Dana, do you know how my husband died? That fucking weak bastard has no fucking bussiness saying that crap if he can't stand up to my heat, thank you very much.

(shit I'm over-posting, but this seems to need a reply)

No, I have no idea. car accident?
But what does that have to do with Meistercruise? Was there a lot of people just driving by, or something? (While your husband was dying)

I do know from experience that what is being done while someone is dying on the part of the bystanders can be a major focus of grief.

[DVD Burner]

SHIT!

Fuckin great thread!

[Apollonaris Zeus]

HUGE assumption. If you look around you at how animals evolve, you would be hard pressed to say they are very compassionate or emphathetic. If you look at the entirety of our history, you would say the same.

From a strict standpoint of "survival of the fittest", compassion and empathy are at the bottom of the list. How do we know whether this isn't what a hypothetical God wanted? Methinks thou projects desires not generally known in nature.

A year or more ago, a child fell into the Gorilla exhibit and a large female that had given birth, but was without offspring at this time took the baby into its arms comforting it and protecting it from the males until one of the keepers came and retrived it without incident. There are many other incidents of animals from domestic to wild that have been recorded. I believe that it is an awareness that is a part of all life and those that are higher of intelligence have a greater need to help and protect the diversity of life.

We help to protect animals that are endangered could an Alien life form have those feelings for us? I believe so.

AIIZ

Mothers in the wild sometimes take different species as offspring, this is thought to be in part due to hormonal changes during and after pregancy. These hormonal reactions are vital, otherwise they would have a tendency to eat their own young.
But the vast majoity of the time, omni/carnivores eat other species young. Quite often as a dietary staple, as a matter of fact.
The space aliens think we're a food source by your logic.

My logic- you dream!

Why do we have protection for endangered species, because we only want to eat them!

Live in fear and drive a big SUV!

AIIZ

[lurker]

'Higher' in evolutionary terms means the ones who breed most. Sad but true.

Whatever the hell our intellect is doing right now it sure doesn't seem to be serving evolution. What good is a species that can convince itself that there should be fewer of themselves?

But it's okay, evolution seems to have taken matters into it's own hands--see 'Idiocracy'.

A higher consciousness maybe, AZ, that's probably the source of things like compassion. But I don't think that necessarily correlates to higher evolution.

And I think most would prefer the Curch of All Worlds to the Church of Scientology. More sex, no fees, and you get to learn Martian! And eat people!

Say what you want, but nothing can top that sweet, sweet cannibalism.

[Toolmaker]

But it's okay, evolution seems to have taken matters into it's own hands--see 'Idiocracy'.

Great film.. sadly I think most of it will come true. The language is already leaning towards that direction.

[theCryptofishist]

Gee, you're right, Dana. Compared to the great humanitarian who starred in Risky Business and Cocktail, my husband's twenty years in first aid and search and rescue, his trips to Florida and Louisiana after hurricanes, to Palau after typhoons, the babies he delivered, the weeks at Arthur P. Murrah and the Twin Towers, the overdoses and madnesses he soothed, the cpr he performed, and yes the brutal traffic accidents he stopped at to pull out survivors and corpses alike are as nothing. and I am a mere parvenu, desparately trying to make herself self=important by claiming that a superstar like Tom has insulted me.

[erri2000]

The thing about actors trying to persuade or recruit you to do something you don't like is you can just push the button on the remote and they disappear.

[DVD Burner]

Hackers Hit Scientology With Online Attack
Hacker group claims to have knocked the Church of Scientology's Web site offline with a distributed denial-of-service attack.
Robert McMillan, IDG News Service
Friday, January 25, 2008 5:10 PM PST

http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,14183 ... ticle.html

A group of hackers calling itself "Anonymous" has hit the Church of Scientology's Web site with an online attack.

The attack was launched Jan. 19 by Anonymous, which is seeking media attention to help "save people from Scientology by reversing the brainwashing," according to a Web page maintained by Anonymous.

Anonymous claims to have knocked the Church's Web site offline with a distributed denial-of-service attack, in which many computers bombard the victim's server with requests, overwhelming it with data in the hope of ultimately knocking the system offline. True to its name, Anonymous does not disclose the true identities of its members.

The attacks were spurred by the Church's efforts to remove video of movie star Tom Cruise professing his admiration for the religion, according to an Anonymous video manifesto posted to Youtube.

"For the good of your followers, for the good of mankind and for our own enjoyment, we shall proceed to expel you from the Internet and systematically dismantle the Church of Scientology in its present form," a creepy computerized voice states in the video. Anonymous followed up this dispatch with a second video blasting the media for failing to completely report the group's criticisms of the church. This video was taken down Friday by Youtube, citing a "terms of use violation."

Anonymous has managed to generate a measurable attack against the Scientology.org Web site. Over the past few days, the site was hit with several DDOS (distributed denial-of-service) attacks, which flooded it with as much as 220M bps of traffic, according to Jose Nazario, a senior security engineer with Arbor Networks, whose company compiles data on Internet attacks.

The Anonymous campaign shows some level of organization. "220M bps is probably about in the middle of attack sizes," Nazario said. "It's not just one or two guys hanging out in the university dorms doing this."

On average, the attacks lasted about 30 minutes and used up 168M bps of bandwidth. In the past year, Arbor has seen attacks on other sites hit 40G bps, or 200 times the strength of the Anonymous event.

Shortly after it was hit with the DDOS flood, the Scientology.org Web site was moved to a server hosted by Prolexic Technologies, according to data compiled by Netcraft, an Internet monitoring company. Prolexic specializes in protecting companies from DDOS attacks.

A Prolexic spokeswoman confirmed that the Church of Scientology is one of the company's clients, but declined to offer more details on the matter. The Church of Scientology did not return a phone call and e-mail seeking comment.

The secretive Church of Scientology's practices, including its efforts to use copyright law to restrict the dissemination of information about the church, have engendered a lot of criticism within the Internet community. But one Web site set up to criticize Scientology -- called Operation Clambake -- called the DDOS attacks a bad idea. "Attacking Scientology like that will just make them play the religious persecution card," wrote Andreas Heldal-Lund, the Web site's owner. "They will use it to defend their own counter actions when they try to shatter criticism and crush critics without mercy."

If publicity was Anonymous' ultimate goal, the group has had some success. Late in the day Friday, seven of the top 10 stories on the Digg.com news-linking site related to Scientology or to Anonymous' communiques.