This is for all threads to goto about www.stopburningman.org

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.
Post Reply
stopbmorg
Posts: 36
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 10:48 am

The reactions are interesting

Post by stopbmorg » Mon Jan 26, 2004 1:03 pm

But certainly not unexpected. We have done our best to further clarify our stand on the issue. Sadly, reporters don't always print what you tell them and the AP article was not 100% accurate. However, it was accurate where it counted. Especially the last quoted statement from BLM that not enough is known. At the same time, Marian got a good soundbite in on the 25-30 second news story run by KCBS 740AM last night and this morning about the issue. What that soundbite amounted to was:

What we do we learned from the LNT organization
BLM says we're OK
So we're OK.


That's fine. That's certainly one way you can look at the issue. Or you can say "well, what about documents X, Y and Z that seem to say something different?" And then you can make your own investigations and draw your own conclusions.

How the "game" has changed, I don't understand. First, it is not, never was, and never would be a "Game". This was an effort to raise some awareness about the fallacy of LNT as applied to the event and to expose information that the general public would otherwise have never seen. If there is harm in offering an opinion and making public a handful of documents, then the whole system under which we live is flawed.

The reporter from the RGJ seems to have made a number of phone calls, looked at the documents, and conducted his own research. It would seem he did his job, nothing more and nothing less. That, coupled with the very public statement that there is no desire to shutter or force a change in location on the event, would seem to indicate that our goals are/were rational.

So BMORG will appeal to the media outlets to counter this, just as they did in 2000 when John Bogard filed his appeal of the event permit. That's fine, I respect the right of BM to appeal to a free press to tell whatever side of the story is, as of yet, unknown. If they have an independent review under way or other information that was unobtainable, then let them put some sunshine on it. Prove us wrong. Prove the BLM and other FOIA documents are incorrect in their conclusions. That's the nature of debate.

Another interesting thing asked last night during the KCBS interview was whether there was a meeting scheduled between us and the LLC. The answer is, quite simply, no. First, if the LLC wanted such a meeting, the email addresses and phone numbers are out there. Second, this isn't really a matter to compromise on. We made people aware and 90% of our goals have been met or exceeded.

User avatar
Tancorix
Posts: 956
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2003 6:56 pm
Location: Not here, not there. I'm somewhere though.

Post by Tancorix » Mon Jan 26, 2004 2:01 pm

Badger, you of all people should know that the best way to handle an individual dispute is by PM, not in the main channel. Thank You.

I think De Facto is right, silence on the board at least is the best option. Meanwhile I've already received 2 contacts from the RGJ so at least I can say I'm doing something about this. Badger, please stick to your scientific investigations, remove your own feet from your mouth, and leave the lobbying to those of us who have experience with these things.

User avatar
KellY
Posts: 321
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2003 11:32 am

Re: Burning Man Project Responds

Post by KellY » Mon Jan 26, 2004 2:44 pm

Okay, don't feed the troll, I know, however, I'd like to remind al & co. that none of them responded to Metric's post directly (except for Sparks who said he was glad to hear we were taking good care of Frog Farm and being so thorough picking up trash). So, what part do you take issue with?

metric wrote:This post was compiled by Burning Man Project staff members in reply
to questions recently raised on this list concerning Burning Man and
its environmental policies in the Black Rock Desert and at Frog Farm,
a nearby hot spring sited on private land.

Frog Farm (actually called the Garrett Ranch on most maps) is
privately owned by the C-Punch Ranch, Inc. and is used by the owners
as a cattle watering site. It is not subject to Bureau of Land
Management regulation. It's history of use includes a hunting lodge,
saloon, produce farm, and frog farm. When we first leased the
property it was not frequented by water fowl because all of the
former large cold ponds were choked with vegetation. There are 8
artesian wells on the property. We developed ponds on 3 of them and
now, happily, migratory birds are again landing there. Wildlife has
not "died off en mass", as has been falsely claimed. Before we leased
the property the fence and gates were not maintained. Year-round
public users of the hot springs would drive their vehicles onto this
private land and camp for extended periods of time right on the edge
of and all around the hot springs, denuding the land and leaving
garbage and human waste.

We repaired the fence and locked the gate, leaving a walk-in opening,
and posted the private land as a no camping/ day use only area. We
also spent many hours cleaning up the garbage, abandoned cars, old
farm equipment and human waste, including used toilet paper that was
left in the bushes by campers next to the hot springs. The diesel
tank has been removed. Since then the land is showing signs of
recovery. A plan to further improve the ecological condition of the
property is being developed by our organization, though this is not
required by either state, county or federal authorities. We do use
some of the water from the large cold pond that we developed for
required fugitive dust abatement in Black Rock City. This use is
approved by the Nevada State Water Authority and represents a very,
very small portion of the annual flow of the artesian wells that
exist on this property and an almost infinitesimal portion of the
total water contained in this aquifer. Furthermore, our use of this
water for the brief duration of our event cannot reasonably be
compared to the far greater amount that is used year-round in this
region for agricultural purposes.

The serpentine dunes that form on the Black Rock Desert dry lake bed
are a natural, periodic occurrence. Our detractors have incorrectly
tried to identify the surface disturbance from recreational use as
the cause of this phenomenon. This reasoning would not explain the
dunes that have formed up wind from the event site. Geologists have
studied this phenomenon starting in the 1950's and have concluded
that the cause is a combination of naturally occurring conditions.


The BLM has studied the potential ecological effect on the water
table and on migratory water fowl from motor oil that might leak from
recreational user's vehicles onto the Black Rock Desert playa,
specifically during the Burning Man Event. This study, conducted over
a two year period, concluded that there is no significant negative
impact. We do check vehicles at the gate for hazardous fluid leakage
(among other things) and do tell our participants not to bring leaky
vehicles to the Black Rock Desert. If fluid leakage is suspected,
participants are required to place some form of catchment basin
beneath their vehicles. This issue, along with the charge that
Burning Man is responsible for dune formation, was raised in an
appeal of our annual land use permit. The BLM determined that it had
no merit. It was not supported by reliable scientific evidence, and
the entire appeal was ultimately rejected by a permit appeals board.

Lastly, the method used to inspect the Burning Man event site is
determined by the Bureau of Land Management, not the Burning Man
Project. The method of inspection is as follows. First, a transect is
randomly selected (a transect consists of an area 100 feet by 1500
feet long). Then volunteers in close-set rank walk slowly along its
length, collecting everything that they discover. Disinterested third
parties are present to observe this process. The allowable amount of
litter is 5 square feet per transect. In 2002, three transects done
at our site post-event netted a TOTAL of 4 square feet of material
(no engine blocks or other large objects were found, despite alarmist
claims). In 2003, this same inspection yielded less than 2 square
feet of debris! These transects have included many high use areas of
our city.

Any method employed to inspect so large an area as our event site can
be portrayed as arbitrary or incomplete, since many hundreds of
people would be required in order to inspect every inch of this area
in a limited period of time. It takes our cleanup crew many days to
accomplish this very task. However, this is only half of the story.
The BLM has also conducted transects in the Black Rock Desert in
recreation areas that are NOT used by Burning Man, and many of these
areas have failed to meet this official standard. Particular methods
of inspection can always be improved, but the baseline standard
employed by the BLM, when matched against the condition of other
sites, is very far from being arbitrary or irrelevant. Ours is an
extraordinary achievement. This is why we have been publicly praised
by the BLM for setting new national standards.

The Bureau of Land Management is not involved in a conspiracy to harm
public lands. The Burning Man Project is environmentally responsible
on both public AND private land. We not only leave no trace, we tend
to leave places cleaner than we've found them. We have nothing to
hide. We even host a website that allows our critics to speak out in
a public forum. However, in recent instances, an anonymous critic who
hides behind multiple identities has cited spurious information on a
website with a falsified registration address. You be the judge. More
contentious and misleading posts employing sock puppets can probably
be expected. Our advice is simple: think twice before you feed the
troll.

Signed, Burning Man Staff
"Of what use is a philosopher who doesn't hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes

User avatar
KellY
Posts: 321
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2003 11:32 am

Just one more thing...

Post by KellY » Mon Jan 26, 2004 2:45 pm

Also, one of you guys asserted: "For the record, we (people that actually care) *do* go up against corporate polluters. Black Rock LLC just happens to be on the list of corporate polluters." So, what other corporate polluters have you "gone up against"? This is the third time I've put this question to you, by the way.

And of all the possible targets, why Burning Man? A bit of research (try googling for Nevada, pollution, and mining) shows that Nevada is the top state for toxic releases, with over a billion pounds per year, almost all from mining. Why focus on the event unless you've got a fucking axe to grind?
"Of what use is a philosopher who doesn't hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes

allanon2
Posts: 252
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 10:27 pm

i go after BMORG for 2 reasons (my reasons not others)

Post by allanon2 » Mon Jan 26, 2004 2:56 pm

i was at the lake bed before you guys. i think the first time was 1987 or something. (i was 17) I also have gone many times since. I dont like seeing what is happening to the lake bed


and 2 i was around in the very begining of Burning man and I was involved in cacophony when we help decide to move the evnt to Black rock desert. Back then it had no lies and now all i see is propaganda and half truths given to its masses by BMORG.

and who else? i won't say as maybe i don't want them to know about me yet?:)
and isn't this place about BMORG and not other happenings in this world.
KellY wrote:Also, one of you guys asserted: "For the record, we (people that actually care) *do* go up against corporate polluters. Black Rock LLC just happens to be on the list of corporate polluters." So, what other corporate polluters have you "gone up against"? This is the third time I've put this question to you, by the way.

And of all the possible targets, why Burning Man? A bit of research (try googling for Nevada, pollution, and mining) shows that Nevada is the top state for toxic releases, with over a billion pounds per year, almost all from mining. Why focus on the event unless you've got a fucking axe to grind?

talisen
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2003 2:43 pm
Location: Becalmed in Hell

Post by talisen » Mon Jan 26, 2004 3:08 pm

Also, one of you guys asserted: "For the record, we (people that actually care) *do* go up against corporate polluters. Black Rock LLC just happens to be on the list of corporate polluters." So, what other corporate polluters have you "gone up against"? This is the third time I've put this question to you, by the way.


It seems the question was ignored.

Yet again.

stopbmorg
Posts: 36
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 10:48 am

Who I've gone up against

Post by stopbmorg » Mon Jan 26, 2004 3:33 pm

For the record, it hasn't been, on my part, corporate polluters. It has been the government.

In the early and mid-90's it was the Army Corp of Engineers over the San Francisco Bay Dredging Project (ship channel improvements) and the dumping of spoils within the bay. Now they dump farther out to sea. But the area still hasn't recovered. Marine life probably won't ever be the same in the dumping areas.

Then later (and currently) it has been CalFed over Delta water diversions. Though some progress has been made (fish screens, limits on pumping, etc) there is much more still to be done. That is what currently takes up most of my time right now (specifically salinity levels).

Next on the agenda was working re: invasive species, but that's an egg I'm not sure how to crack, yet. And in all honesty, it seems (for now) the government actually wants to get a handle on it (though they speak one thing and still do another).

Then there is the time I contribute to trying to get the US Navy to clean up it's mess in the Gulf of the Farallones. Leaking casks of nasty material on the bottom of the ocean. Of course, once you involve the Department of Defense, the matter becomes incredibly more difficult.

Anyway, hope that gives you some insight there.

User avatar
DE FACTO
Posts: 1263
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2003 12:02 am

Post by DE FACTO » Mon Jan 26, 2004 3:34 pm

talisen wrote:
Also, one of you guys asserted: "For the record, we (people that actually care) *do* go up against corporate polluters. Black Rock LLC just happens to be on the list of corporate polluters." So, what other corporate polluters have you "gone up against"? This is the third time I've put this question to you, by the way.


It seems the question was ignored.

Yet again.
was'nt ignored, just needs to be clarified.
So, what other corporate polluters have you "gone up against"? This is the third time I've put this question to you, by the way.?
Just who is that part of the question posed to?
And I think I understand this part of the question.
Also, one of you guys asserted: "For the record, we (people that actually care) *do* go up against corporate polluters. Black Rock LLC just happens to be on the list of corporate polluters."
Just trying to understand the relevence of this being on the board. seems like it wont get resolved here.

I think I will try to stick with genghis's
advise

User avatar
Patience
Posts: 297
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2003 10:52 am
Location: Ess Eff
Contact:

Post by Patience » Mon Jan 26, 2004 4:23 pm

Maybe if we keep posting it, one of these guys will eventually respond to it.
metric wrote:This post was compiled by Burning Man Project staff members in reply
to questions recently raised on this list concerning Burning Man and
its environmental policies in the Black Rock Desert and at Frog Farm,
a nearby hot spring sited on private land.

Frog Farm (actually called the Garrett Ranch on most maps) is
privately owned by the C-Punch Ranch, Inc. and is used by the owners
as a cattle watering site. It is not subject to Bureau of Land
Management regulation. It's history of use includes a hunting lodge,
saloon, produce farm, and frog farm. When we first leased the
property it was not frequented by water fowl because all of the
former large cold ponds were choked with vegetation. There are 8
artesian wells on the property. We developed ponds on 3 of them and
now, happily, migratory birds are again landing there. Wildlife has
not "died off en mass", as has been falsely claimed. Before we leased
the property the fence and gates were not maintained. Year-round
public users of the hot springs would drive their vehicles onto this
private land and camp for extended periods of time right on the edge
of and all around the hot springs, denuding the land and leaving
garbage and human waste.

We repaired the fence and locked the gate, leaving a walk-in opening,
and posted the private land as a no camping/ day use only area. We
also spent many hours cleaning up the garbage, abandoned cars, old
farm equipment and human waste, including used toilet paper that was
left in the bushes by campers next to the hot springs. The diesel
tank has been removed. Since then the land is showing signs of
recovery. A plan to further improve the ecological condition of the
property is being developed by our organization, though this is not
required by either state, county or federal authorities. We do use
some of the water from the large cold pond that we developed for
required fugitive dust abatement in Black Rock City. This use is
approved by the Nevada State Water Authority and represents a very,
very small portion of the annual flow of the artesian wells that
exist on this property and an almost infinitesimal portion of the
total water contained in this aquifer. Furthermore, our use of this
water for the brief duration of our event cannot reasonably be
compared to the far greater amount that is used year-round in this
region for agricultural purposes.

The serpentine dunes that form on the Black Rock Desert dry lake bed
are a natural, periodic occurrence. Our detractors have incorrectly
tried to identify the surface disturbance from recreational use as
the cause of this phenomenon. This reasoning would not explain the
dunes that have formed up wind from the event site. Geologists have
studied this phenomenon starting in the 1950's and have concluded
that the cause is a combination of naturally occurring conditions.


The BLM has studied the potential ecological effect on the water
table and on migratory water fowl from motor oil that might leak from
recreational user's vehicles onto the Black Rock Desert playa,
specifically during the Burning Man Event. This study, conducted over
a two year period, concluded that there is no significant negative
impact. We do check vehicles at the gate for hazardous fluid leakage
(among other things) and do tell our participants not to bring leaky
vehicles to the Black Rock Desert. If fluid leakage is suspected,
participants are required to place some form of catchment basin
beneath their vehicles. This issue, along with the charge that
Burning Man is responsible for dune formation, was raised in an
appeal of our annual land use permit. The BLM determined that it had
no merit. It was not supported by reliable scientific evidence, and
the entire appeal was ultimately rejected by a permit appeals board.

Lastly, the method used to inspect the Burning Man event site is
determined by the Bureau of Land Management, not the Burning Man
Project. The method of inspection is as follows. First, a transect is
randomly selected (a transect consists of an area 100 feet by 1500
feet long). Then volunteers in close-set rank walk slowly along its
length, collecting everything that they discover. Disinterested third
parties are present to observe this process. The allowable amount of
litter is 5 square feet per transect. In 2002, three transects done
at our site post-event netted a TOTAL of 4 square feet of material
(no engine blocks or other large objects were found, despite alarmist
claims). In 2003, this same inspection yielded less than 2 square
feet of debris! These transects have included many high use areas of
our city.

Any method employed to inspect so large an area as our event site can
be portrayed as arbitrary or incomplete, since many hundreds of
people would be required in order to inspect every inch of this area
in a limited period of time. It takes our cleanup crew many days to
accomplish this very task. However, this is only half of the story.
The BLM has also conducted transects in the Black Rock Desert in
recreation areas that are NOT used by Burning Man, and many of these
areas have failed to meet this official standard. Particular methods
of inspection can always be improved, but the baseline standard
employed by the BLM, when matched against the condition of other
sites, is very far from being arbitrary or irrelevant. Ours is an
extraordinary achievement. This is why we have been publicly praised
by the BLM for setting new national standards.

The Bureau of Land Management is not involved in a conspiracy to harm
public lands. The Burning Man Project is environmentally responsible
on both public AND private land. We not only leave no trace, we tend
to leave places cleaner than we've found them. We have nothing to
hide. We even host a website that allows our critics to speak out in
a public forum. However, in recent instances, an anonymous critic who
hides behind multiple identities has cited spurious information on a
website with a falsified registration address. You be the judge. More
contentious and misleading posts employing sock puppets can probably
be expected. Our advice is simple: think twice before you feed the
troll.

Signed, Burning Man Staff
It's not that I hate you. It's just that I'm a much better person than you.

User avatar
aforceforgood
Posts: 330
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 8:49 pm

Post by aforceforgood » Mon Jan 26, 2004 4:28 pm

stopbmorg wrote:Prove us wrong. Prove the BLM and other FOIA documents are incorrect in their conclusions. That's the nature of debate.
What conclusions? I've read those (unsigned) documents, and I sure didn't see any conclusions, other than; since there's life in the desert BM MAY BE having too much impact on it and therefore we should do further study on it? Says who? Not your "experts" (I'm referring of course to the unsigned letter scans on your website purportedly from various ecological experts [the word "expert" itself being a slippery definition]).

And I could say that I believe that people picking their noses causes global warming, challenge someone to prove that wrong, and when they ask for more data or evidence, start railing at them that they're being obstinate, uncooperative, etc. like you're doing, and then sit back with a smug sense of self-satisfaction. You haven't produced any EVIDENCE to show ANY damage whatsoever, you dumbfucks. But you sure seem to want to stir up a lot of shit-
allanon2 wrote:i was at the lake bed before you guys. i think the first time was 1987 or something. (i was 17) I also have gone many times since. I dont like seeing what is happening to the lake bed
Well, that's telling, now isn't it? Sure seems like we have the old story of the people who got there first wanting to keep others away from their neck of the woods so that they can keep it all to themselves.
stopbmorg wrote:Another interesting thing asked last night during the KCBS interview was whether there was a meeting scheduled between us and the LLC. The answer is, quite simply, no. First, if the LLC wanted such a meeting, the email addresses and phone numbers are out there. Second, this isn't really a matter to compromise on. We made people aware and 90% of our goals have been met or exceeded.
Then your goal must be to be an asshole. Congrats on that, you've succeeded with spectacular success.

I don't know the contents of the BM letter to you, but I would be willing to bet it asked for what I've asked you for on this board many times- real evidence to show that there's even a possibility that BM is causing some damage to the ecosystem from you before they waste their time meeting with you. What, are they supposed to meet with every eco-nut with a camera who can take a picture of something and accuse them of causing the damage?

This whole shitstorm is likely to catch the attention of some idiot politician who will pass some retarded law that will likely complicate matters so that neither stopburningman.org or Burning Man people will be able to enjoy the place. Nice going, fucktard.

You could have come to us with EVIDENCE, at which point we'd have tried even harder (here's a question for YOU; What event does a BETTER job of Leaving No Trace than Burning Man?) to do a better job of cleanup, but no, you ATTACKED us, you dipshit.

And why is it that you're not responding to the letters that have been sent to you by BM staff?

And exactly what other polluters are you going after?

That's relevent because you're widely suspected of having ulterior motives, and your actions seem to support that. Your weaselly avoidance of that question is not exactly going unnoticed. And please don't give us that "please clarify" bullshit again, unless you specify exactly what you don't understand about "what other polluters are you going after?".

Nor is the fact that there's apparently been some recognition on your part (stopburningman.org's) of the fact that your conduct from the beginning has not been one of fairness and wanting to point out how we could do a better job of LNT, but rather one of condemnation, basically a smear campaign, to the point where now that there's an article in RGP, you've rewritten your website to try and make it seem like you're not the rabid frothing at the mouth illogical eco-nuts that at least some of your members are.

You've even deleted some of your petty points like how an art car was outside the event (horrors!). You yourself admit it was after the event. How else were they supposed to get home?

But don't worry, the comedy that is your website is not lost to the ages- I've archived it, and I'll make sure that side of the story gets out.

Again, kindly produce some real evidence of damage being done that links BM to it or please shut the fuck up.
Last edited by aforceforgood on Mon Jan 26, 2004 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Be the dime you seek.

User avatar
Rob the Wop
Posts: 1814
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2003 4:06 pm
Location: Furbackistan, OR
Contact:

Post by Rob the Wop » Mon Jan 26, 2004 4:34 pm

They're not interested in stupid things like facts, or open communication, or other silly crap like that...

jeez...

They are far better things to devote their time. Like denying trying to shut down the event over and over again on their "stopburningman.org" site. Or whining about the precious and fragile desert ecosystem (that happens to taste fairly good after you shoot it and eat it). Or the tiny ripple created from dust kicked up by Burning Man (wouldn't want to scratch the Neon's paint job while doing 360s at 60mph).

They are just like Mother Teresa. Or Mother something or others.
[b]The other, other white meat.[/b]

User avatar
BlueBirdPoof
Posts: 627
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2003 11:44 am
Location: SF Bay Area

Re: The reactions are interesting

Post by BlueBirdPoof » Mon Jan 26, 2004 4:40 pm

aforceforgood wrote: You've even deleted some of your petty points like how an art car was outside the event (horrors!). You yourself admit it was after the event. How else were they supposed to get home?
My goodness--there was an art car driving off the playa. Since I refused to spend much time on that hysterical website, I didn't get that far and I assumed from the fuss that it had been abandoned on the playa.

A few posts ago, I was asked what I expect these people to do. After mulling it a few hours I have to say that I don't have a theory of mind bizarre enough to have any real predictive power; therefore I can have no expectations of their behavior, except that a) it will make no apperent sence to me, even though b) I will inevitably given the chance interpret it in a milder way than they do, and c) they will exude enough sturm und drang to out sturm und drang 50 artsy, depressed teens.

allanon2
Posts: 252
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 10:27 pm

here is the only BMORG letter directly addressed to us

Post by allanon2 » Mon Jan 26, 2004 4:41 pm

(I don't know the contents of the BM letter to you, but I would be willing to bet it asked for what I've asked you for on this board )




our response
Michael Michael of BURNING MAN LLC wrote the email from which someone
at [email protected] repsonded from.

the the original message
was from a LLC member for BMORG. Michael Michael


tyl
allanon


see email below. the > is from michaelmichael. the no > is from us.
>Congratulations on a most effective, if not elegant, hoax.
>
It's not a hoax at all.

>This comes after wading through all the BM ePlaya posts, looking at
all the
>images on sbm.org, following a huge number of links, searching old
>Cacophony databases, tracking down domain registrants, sending a
couple of
>trick emails which exposed more trails, which led to more websites
>belonging to friends of sbm.org, which meant more registration
searches,
>and then digitally enlarging images, checking for matches on vehicle
makes,
>colors, license plates, and checking peoples faces and hair colors,
and
>matching playa images and events...
>
Ok, Jr. Detective.. let's see what you have.

>I notice that "This Letter" FOIA is to our friend and writer Brian
Doherty:
>http://www.stopburningman.org/images/scans/debunksm.jpg
>
So what?

>and that "This" evidence is lifted from the 2000 permit protest
materials:
>http://www.stopburningman.org/images/scans/eco1sm.jpg
>
Again, so what? It's still relevant.

>"North Tree Fire" -this photo of the water truck was taken WEST of
the
RR
>track, probably on a return run from FrogPond:
>http://www.stopburningman.org/images/northtree.jpg
>You can see the RR crossing marking pole in the background.
>
You are hopelessly & completely wrong. It was NOT on a return run
from
Frog
Pond.

http://www.stopburningman.org/images/20 ... tree01.jpg
http://www.stopburningman.org/images/20 ... tree02.jpg

The telegraph poles in the background are NOT from the railroad
tracks.
There are no railroad markings whatsoever in this photo. The photo is
looking almost SOUTH. If it was West, you'd see the playa. But you
don't,
because you're wrong. Note that these are 2 additional photos that
were
*not* linked from the stopburningman.org website.

>"Participants" -is that a Plymouth Neon?
>http://www.stopburningman.org/images/visitor.jpg
>
Quite possibly, but we didn't ask the Burning Man attendee that
violated
the
permit rules by driving out there.

>"These People" -submitting proof of hot spring violations with a
photo
>which includes you and your friends in the water is very clever.
>http://www.stopburningman.org/images/visitors.jpg
>That damn dog shows up on too many of your websites.
>
Since you did an oh-so-careful evaluation of the photos, you should
realize
that the people in the springs are *not* members of our group. Each &
every
one was a Burning Man attendee.

Burning Man attendees are FORBIDDEN from using the local hot springs.
Read
your own land use permit.

>"Toxic Waste" -You showed this:
>http://blackrock.the7thbeer.com/pictures/mvc-012s.html and called it
"toxic
>waste from Burning Man. What you didn't show was this:
>http://blackrock.the7thbeer.com/pictures/mvc-011s.html
>Funny how the color and pattern match the 1st hole of the 1999 Black
Rock
>Golf Classic. http://www.keisterphoto.com/golf/hole05_99.htm
>
Nice coincidence, but incorrect. We didn't show what you linked to
because
it's not the same material. It appears to be greywater drained from
an
RV.

>"Pits & Digging" -outdated info.
>http://www.stopburningman.org/images/fpond2.jpg
>
How is that outdated? The complete destruction of Frog Pond is still
evident. If anything, that shows that it's been going on for quite a
long
time.

>As for "Dedication" -a swipe on the Earth Guardians:
>http://www.stopburningman.org/images/wimpout.jpg
>the other logbook pages pictured on Ed's website tell a different
story:
>http://blackrock.the7thbeer.com/pictures/pdrm0623.html
>Nice poetry Ed.
>
And that changes the fact that the Earth Guardians wimped out... .how?

For the record, I'm not Ed. Like we've said before, there are multiple
people behind this but you stubborn morons insist on the term "sock
puppets."
MORE THAN ONE = NO SOCK PUPPET.
Clear? Good. Moving right along...

>By the way, which puppet is Ed Mitchell?
>http://blackrock.the7thbeer.com/pictures/br98_me.html
>
Not that guy. That's not me either. Actually, I'm not sure WHO the
hell
that
is. I think it's Jeff.

>And which puppet is Rex Skates:
>http://blackrock.the7thbeer.com/pictures/mvc-020s.html
>
That's Rex, alright. A scary sight in the morning, don't you think?

>Sorry that you cant drive 100 MPH during the event any more, that
the
BLM
>now requires a permit & insurance for the Golf Classic, that you
can't
use
>FrogPond like you used to, and that I can't spend any more time on
this.
>The world is changing for all of us.
>

If you (or any of the Burning Man attendees that we've encountered so
far)
really *were* sorry, then you might not be so conceited and hostile
towards
us. We've noticed that quite a lot of the eplaya denziens are unable
to
refute any of our information, so they devolve into petty mud
slinging
and
childish insults. Several of us have brought up very valid points
that
have
not really been addressed. Instead, the eplaya zealots went off and
pretended to be little detectives. How does that solve the situation?
Trying
to scare those that speak out?

Maybe it's time that someone spoke out against the rampant drug use
and
alleged sexual assults. Notice that we're not going there - but it is
still
a valid concern.

See, what we've asked for really isn't that hard. Seriously, it's not.
>And, at the time, we didn't know about the Neon Club:
>http://www.billboardliberation.com/imag ... 66_lrg.jpg
>



Regards,
[email protected]
http://www.stopburningman.org

Not Ed. Not Rex. Not Rodney, and not Jeff. I'm Jonathan. Nyah. :P
Last edited by allanon2 on Mon Jan 26, 2004 8:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Isotopia
Posts: 2848
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2003 11:26 am

Post by Isotopia » Mon Jan 26, 2004 6:32 pm

Someone PLEASE hand these folks a bigger shovel.

allanon2
Posts: 252
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 10:27 pm

so you are saying you agree with michaelmichael

Post by allanon2 » Mon Jan 26, 2004 8:05 pm

you are argreeing about what michael michael from the LLC said?
?
1.that the north tree fire truck picture was on a return trip from frog pond yet it clearly shows it at trego

2.or that we are the ones in the hotspring? yet it doesn't match any of our faces?

3. see above emails from michael michael and our repsonse for more examples.

i don't think we need the shovel. if you beleive the email that michaelmichael of LLC wrote us then you are the delusional one.

you beleive our website is all a hoax as he does? if so then why did the reno gazette after days of research publish this? are you saying that he is on the hoax also?

sorry michaelmichael but i had to post your email as it was the only one from the LLC. I know we used to be friends and i am hoping that you were forced to write such accusations to make the rest of the LLC happy. You used to have morals and and a beter sense of the truth.
but comeone on people. do you all still beelive its a hoax? that we are all socks? humm was i a sock on the radio today?
was ed and rodney socks?
and one of you even thought i was michaelmichael.

have a great day. And if you want offocial responses from us. We have already responded to the LLC on the only official questions we received from them.
I know i will be repsonding during the comment period of this years permit. It is my hope that peopel after seeing our website will get more involved and show that you truely care about more than just the burning man event and realy care about the pliya.

ttyl
rex
Isotopia wrote:Someone PLEASE hand these folks a bigger shovel.

User avatar
DE FACTO
Posts: 1263
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2003 12:02 am

Post by DE FACTO » Mon Jan 26, 2004 8:18 pm

1.that the north tree fire truck picture was on a return trip from frog pond yet it clearly shows it at trego

2.or that we are the ones in the hotspring? yet it doesn't match any of our faces?
Ah the good ol days. reminds me of when I was young here on the eplaya and someone decided to take my identidy by adding a period after the name.



Sounds like some pretty desperate mesures.
BM will prevail in the end. :lol:
Last edited by DE FACTO on Mon Jan 26, 2004 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
DE FACTO
Posts: 1263
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2003 12:02 am

Post by DE FACTO » Mon Jan 26, 2004 8:21 pm

Oh sorry.

I did'nt realize this was the same silly thread.

User avatar
Isotopia
Posts: 2848
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2003 11:26 am

Post by Isotopia » Mon Jan 26, 2004 9:08 pm

I know i will be repsonding during the comment period of this years permit.
I

am

so

looking

forward

to

this.

User avatar
Tancorix
Posts: 956
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2003 6:56 pm
Location: Not here, not there. I'm somewhere though.

Post by Tancorix » Mon Jan 26, 2004 9:59 pm

Image

The above is a reminder of this group practicing "Leave No Trace" principles.

User avatar
Tancorix
Posts: 956
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2003 6:56 pm
Location: Not here, not there. I'm somewhere though.

Post by Tancorix » Mon Jan 26, 2004 10:06 pm

Image

Despite all the bluster to the contrary, I think we have some dirty socks around here.

Edited to draw attention to the fact there is now an Allanon03 on the memberlist. That's the whole reason for this post.

precipitate
Posts: 746
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 10:51 pm
Location: Somewhere near an ocean and a desert and a mountain

Post by precipitate » Mon Jan 26, 2004 10:25 pm

> was ed and rodney socks?

Owie.

User avatar
sparks
Posts: 25
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2004 8:19 am
Location: Sacramento, CA

Post by sparks » Mon Jan 26, 2004 11:22 pm

Tancorix wrote:Image

The above is a reminder of this group practicing "Leave No Trace" principles.
Congratulations. You've found pictures taken SEVEN years ago. Nice try.
"Corduroy pillows... they're making headlines"
- unknown wise man

User avatar
calsur
Posts: 322
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2004 10:15 pm
Location: Eureka, CA

ignore them

Post by calsur » Mon Jan 26, 2004 11:23 pm

"Never get into an argument with an idiot...he'll drag you down to his level and beat you with experience."

These people are idiots, ignore them.

The Quote above is directly from a burner on this site.

Use your energy to post to new people like me and our questions rather than idiots.

User avatar
aforceforgood
Posts: 330
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 8:49 pm

PLEASE DON'T FEED THE TROLL!!

Post by aforceforgood » Tue Jan 27, 2004 12:25 am

It's pretty obvious that;

rational communication is something Allannon is not capable of.

he has no hard evidence of damage or he would have presented it by now.

he has no hard evidence showing damage was caused by Burning Man or he would have presented it by now. (unless his true goal is to stop burning man, and he's planning on sandbagging bmorg with that at permit hearings)

he's not willing to have a back-and-forth discussion (answering questions raised to him) about points he has no answer for.

so it's futile to try and communicate with him. So let's stop. We're only feeding his ego.

I'm hereby swearing off posting here. Only a fool wastes the precious seconds of his life arguing with a fool. I've given Alannon the benefit of the doubt, but he's proven over and over again he is a fool. Let him rant all he wants, that will only reveal more of exactly how much and of what kind of fool he is. He doesn't need any help for that.

Oh, and it's been recommended that we not swamp the Reno Gazette Journal with emails, stand by for who is the point person in this matter that you should send information to.
Be the dime you seek.

User avatar
enthropic
Posts: 54
Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 8:37 pm
Location: Denver Colorado
Contact:

Post by enthropic » Tue Jan 27, 2004 12:50 am

calsur wrote:"Never get into an argument with an idiot...he'll drag you down to his level and beat you with experience."

These people are idiots, ignore them.

The Quote above is directly from a burner on this site.

Use your energy to post to new people like me and our questions rather than idiots.
Oh how refreshing it is to have a Intelligent nuwbie. However, if you have Questions there is a place for them. I understand your point, I made it my self about a mounth ago. This has been a heated...(I cant even call it a disscusion) more like a linguistic ethics battle. Tempers and emotion are just cooling. People are still need time to vent.

I will expect great posts from this one!


BUT IT"S TIME TO CRUSH THE THREAD!
Knothing is seperate. Everything is One.
Illusion blinds us. Understanding is enlightenment.
James

User avatar
Tancorix
Posts: 956
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2003 6:56 pm
Location: Not here, not there. I'm somewhere though.

Post by Tancorix » Tue Jan 27, 2004 7:45 am

It appears serious opposition is forming to counter the lies, half-truths, media manipulation and spin control that have been spread by the StopBM group. It's past time for me to shut up on this topic and let others will more skill in this particular arena do their work. I'm going back to fighting transit issues and streamway access rights problems here in the Midwest and leave this battle to others who are closer to Nevada, California, and the ORG.

Thanks to all who listened to my POV, I really appreciate it. This battle is not over, not by a long shot. To those who are taking them on: Just win, baby! Good luck!

SED
Posts: 1359
Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2003 10:26 pm

Post by SED » Tue Jan 27, 2004 8:05 am

I'm a banana!
It ain't the hanging, it's the drop.

User avatar
rodent
Posts: 416
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 12:21 pm
Location: Santa Cruz, California
Contact:

Post by rodent » Tue Jan 27, 2004 8:18 am

enthropic wrote:


BUT IT"S TIME TO CRUSH THE THREAD!
***holds thumb and finger up to eye, squints, makes squshing motions***

I'M CRUSHING YOUR THREAD!!! I'M CRUSHING YOUR THREAD!!!




sorry, I couldn't help myself... ya keep sett'n em up and I'll keep knock'n em over, eh?
---
rodent (putting the eek in geek)

User avatar
Isotopia
Posts: 2848
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2003 11:26 am

Post by Isotopia » Tue Jan 27, 2004 10:11 am

I don't think for a minute that there's a 'point' person here that's 'handling' the situation. I suspect that there are folks from near and far who feel invested enough to take on the lies and deceit.

How they'll do it is anyone's guess - assuming they have have time to wrestle pigs in the mud.

If they do anything I'd expect it to be creative but assuming the SBM site is the standard for creativity in all of this wrangling the use of crayons would be a bump up the creativity ladder IMO.

User avatar
stuart
Posts: 3325
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 10:45 am
Location: East of Lincoln

Post by stuart » Tue Jan 27, 2004 10:52 am

did anyone notice how it seems, if you read his rebuttal to michael michael, that allanon2 took a crash course in english between that post and previous ones. He sure is a quick study!

Post Reply

Return to “Philosophical Center”