What do you do when...

mereth · Post by **mereth** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:43 pm

I think my signature line says it allllll.

Toolmaker · Post by **Toolmaker** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:07 pm

Teo del Fuego wrote:But just imagine looking out across the deep playa and all of a sudden seeing a mushroom cloud ignite and billow into the night time sky. That would be awesome, I think.

Indeed it would.

Think hydrogen.. a little more "legal" and alot cheaper. This could be done without the shrapnel. But than again.. what the fun without shrapnel. As someone once said "Can I truly be free if I am not in danger?".

Crude Awakening was the most AWESOME thing I have seen in my life. PERIOD!

It really is a shame that DisneyMan has taken over BurningMan. I wish I could have been there in the early 90s when it was still lots of fun.

Teo del Fuego · Post by **Teo del Fuego** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 8:48 am

Toolmaker wrote: a little more "legal" and alot cheaper.

Naw, cant beat free as in cousin who's a disgruntled Army supply officer with access to 60's-era tactical warhead. I just need to run some numbers to figure out how big the blast zone will be sos I can be safe an' all that shit.

Any physics majors out there?

Dustdevil · Post by **Dustdevil** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:26 am

Below is the formula and reasoning I used to determine the perimeter for Crude Awakening. This was based on the energy output of propane. The nozzle size for the fuel systems gave us a heat output of 176,000 watts of heat energy per second. This formula told us that the human pain threshold would be reach in 3 min and 30 seconds at a distance of 500'. The calibrated the flow to run out of fuel in 3 minutes. This we took from NFPA part 160.

A-5-1 An audience should be located so that the incident thermal radiation received does not exceed that calculated by the following equation:

where:

t = time in seconds

q = incident thermal flux in kW/m2 or as taken from Figure A-6-1.

Figure A-6-1 Time required for pain due to exposure to thermal radiation.

When applying the preceding equation to an effect with a duration of 4 seconds or less, the time used in calculating the maximum acceptable level of incident thermal flux should correspond to the root mean square (RMS) value of the peak incident thermal flux.

The incident radiation should not cause the surface temperature of the exposed skin of a member of the audience to exceed 44Â°C (111Â°F). Incident radiation can be measured with a radiometer. Skin temperature can be measured with an infrared surface thermometer or other equivalent means.

Teo del Fuego · Post by **Teo del Fuego** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:37 am

wow, that's interesting, but can the formula be modified to help me calculate a reasonably safe detonation distance when using Plutonium?

Dustdevil · Post by **Dustdevil** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:17 am

Absolutely, the formula is based on time, distance and heat energy. The source of the heat is not a factor. You will need to convert to watts of heat energy. The thermal flux factor will remain constant. To convert from mega tons to watts, you must first convert to a known heat producing factor. Sixty sticks of dynamite will produce the energy factor of 1 gallon of gasoline. Propane being approx 20% less energetic than gasoline will give you the second conversion factor. These are rough figures, but close enough for what you are doing. You will only need the weight of dynamite to complete to formula. Well that and a TI engineering calulator. You will also need to know the output of your device. Hope this helps.

Token · Post by **Token** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:02 pm

Dustdevil wrote:Below is the formula and reasoning I used to determine the perimeter for Crude Awakening. This was based on the energy output of propane. The nozzle size for the fuel systems gave us a heat output of 176,000 watts of heat energy per second. This formula told us that the human pain threshold would be reach in 3 min and 30 seconds at a distance of 500'. The calibrated the flow to run out of fuel in 3 minutes. This we took from NFPA part 160.

Holy Fucking Shit! You set the perimeter with only a 1/7 margin? That is 15% safety margin. You got cajones made of solid steel!

I have a feeling that the graph in NFPA160 (~ t=100-q) has an order of magnitude safety margin built in. Few things in thermodynamics are linear.

Dustdevil · Post by **Dustdevil** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:22 pm

Holy Fucking Shit! You set the perimeter with only a 1/7 margin? That is 15% safety margin. You got cajones made of solid steel!

I have a feeling that the graph in NFPA160 (~ t=100-q) has an order of magnitude safety margin built in. Few things in thermodynamics are linear.[/quote]

Sharp! I'm impressed, but you forgot one thing. The first 1/3 of the fuel burn off took place in the air. That made the distance even greater. The last part of the burn off was close to the ground, but it had a shorter burn time. We actually calculated all of this and then ran my figures by a mechanical engineer just to make certain that I had not forgotten something. Our biggest worry was crowd panic if the effect lasted too long and people began getting "warm".

Token · Post by **Token** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 2:00 pm

I was ear to ear grin when the JP8 fired. That one did hurt and I had to cover my face.

It reminded me of 2001 with the five kero cannons right before the man burn. That one hurt too.

Great job to everyone who had to twiddle the numbers.

Can't wait for the next one.

Teo del Fuego · Post by **Teo del Fuego** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:35 pm

Dustdevil wrote:Absolutely, the formula is based on time, distance and heat energy..

Dynamite? Propane? Dude, Im talking freaking surplus tactical nuclear warhead!

Are there any physics majors in the house?

Chief · Post by **Chief** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:07 am

Teo del Fuego wrote:Are there any physics majors in the house?

I don't believe you need a physics professor to figure that on out. I think Phil summed it up nicely.

phil wrote:There are too many variables to let me provide a generalization. I'm all for standing back and lettting the fools fall where they may, I say.

Oldguy · Post by **Oldguy** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:52 am

Teo, We need to know device yield: ex. 20 MT or 100 KT ? Also, is this a surface blast, or on a tower, or dropped from air? What is the air visibility? Perhaps you might want to purchase a yield calculator from US Documents [ www.fourmilab.ch/bombcalc/instructions.html ]. Thermal radiation may be the least of your concern: reflected overpressure can pop your eardrums; hemorrage your lungs; or slam you against an RV, or against a fellow burner; or that trashfence may cut you in two. Radioactivity is also a bitch.

Teo del Fuego · Post by **Teo del Fuego** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:40 pm

Ok, I give up. No one took the bait. But it is amazing that there is such thing as a bomb blast calculator, no?

Token · Post by **Token** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 3:24 pm

What??!! You did not have the ordinance you claimed in your possession!

What a letdown.

I suppose we gotta go back to JP8 and pressure accumulators.

Sigh ...

Token · Post by **Token** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 3:28 pm

BTW, you know you triggered all sorts of internet backbone filters to scream bloody murder and all our personal information is being screened by your friendly homeland security office as we type here...

jus sayn

Teo del Fuego · Post by **Teo del Fuego** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 4:09 pm

ya know, that thought DID occur to me, which lead me to a daydream sequence where two MIBs knock on my door to ask me a few "questions." I then try to explain what a kidder I am and point to my prior posts about using food coloring to dye my graywater so I could dump it directly on the playa only to be met with knowing glances and a syringe filled...oh, gotta go, someones at the door...

Toolmaker · Post by **Toolmaker** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:03 pm

Let me just say for the record that I have NO PROBLEM with a small thermonuclear event at BM as long as the right folks are making it happen.

We will likely never get to see this though.

Why JP8? Nothing better to get the shroom effect thats legal?

erri2000 · Post by **erri2000** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:33 am

phil wrote:There are too many variables to let me provide a generalization. I'm all for standing back and letting the fools fall where they may, I say.

Hey Phil, I want to apologize, being that 2007 was my first year and I am still acclimating all the info, I threw everybody into the mix, the little ones as well, (under 18 by law).

After reading what you wrote again. I am pretty sure I get what you mean. Myself, I am going to "Scream fire in the hole." Because I like to scream "Fire in the Hole" when there is a fire in the hole.

Teo del Fuego · Post by **Teo del Fuego** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:19 am

yeah, well I think you still look like the actor who played Ed on the TV show "Ed."

Dustdevil · Post by **Dustdevil** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:53 am

Hey Toolmaker,

We have three very good reasons for JP8 in the BLEVE cannons. 1) It mixes well with the other fuels. It has no oil or additives that diesel fuel has (burns with less smoke) 3) I get large quantities at no cost. I guess a fourth reason would be that the fuel we get was to be taken away as Hazmat and burned anyway.

Token · Post by **Token** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:56 am

Plus it smells like victory after combustion.

studebaker hoch · Post by **studebaker hoch** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 3:42 pm

OK look, the playa burn scar thing is just dumb.

WE USED to burn stuff right there on the ground, and guess what? You could *maybe* find it next year, if conditions were just right, and it generally looked like just another playa serpent dune.

No harm done.

This current thing of "no burning directly on the playa" is a bit like saying "no walking directly on the ground. Huh? What it means to most people is *we can't burn shit anymore because we'll get in trouble if we do".

So what happens? Shit doesn't get burned. People go to the big, officially sactioned burns instead, and stand behind the safety line. The sponteneity, danger, and *beauty* of burn night, with it's hundreds of independent fires, are gone baby gone.

Who the heck even said a playa is an ecologically sensitive area in the first place? They have to be the LEAST sensitive! We used to test nuclear weapons on playas and guess what, they left burn scars(!). Today...none to be found. Playas are a low-energy sink, they heal quite well on their own, in fact they will *eat* things left on them and what they can't eat, they will bury under silt, forever. It may take time, but you could leave a mac truck on the playa and come back in a decade or two and be lucky to find it.

Stop the pussification, please oh please?

Dustdevil · Post by **Dustdevil** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 4:13 pm

[quote="studebaker hoch"]OK look, the playa burn scar thing is just dumb.

Who the heck even said a playa is an ecologically sensitive area in the first place?

The BLM said so. Agree or not, when we are in their playground, we are required to play by their rules.

Teo del Fuego · Post by **Teo del Fuego** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 4:17 pm

I'm all for stopping the pussification of Burning Man, but I think the problem is not how the Playa looks a year later when we all return, it's how it looks two months later when other folks may venture out there. The Playa belongs to everyone, not just Burners. Not trying to prech at you, just trying to state another side.

Personally, Im proud that Burning Man is te worlds largest sccessful LNT event.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:35 pm

studebaker hoch wrote:Who the heck even said a playa is an ecologically sensitive area in the first place?

apart from wrecks, I don't know. Although it's not true nothing lives out there. But I dont' think it's about protecting things for ecological reasons; there is protecting that weird empty mooonscape as a moonscape. And there's something about not going ot someone's house and crapping on the table.

And it just me that thinks someone who uses "pussification" is a sexist asshole? With negative gender identity issues? Although, I suppose that respect for other people's experiences is pretty degrading for you.

Teo del Fuego · Post by **Teo del Fuego** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:03 am

theCryptofishist wrote:And it just me that thinks someone who uses "pussification" is a sexist asshole? With negative gender identity issues? Although, I suppose that respect for other people's experiences is pretty degrading for you.

Let the record reflect I was merely using the word of the author to whom I was responding. In theory, "pussification" could also be a species-biased term casting negative implications onto our friends in the feline community. A thick skin is often as virtuous as sensitivity.

Post by **AntiM** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:17 am

And here I thought more pussy at Burning Man was desirable.

studebaker hoch · Post by **studebaker hoch** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:48 pm

A 100 kt tower shot would do nicely.

Remember kids, stand back behind the safey line, and be considerate to your fellow burners by taking a seat if you're in the first fifty rows.

ibdave · Post by **ibdave** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 4:07 pm

studebaker hoch wrote:A 100 kt tower shot would do nicely.

Remember kids, stand back behind the safey line, and be considerate to your fellow burners by taking a seat if you're in the first fifty rows.

Ha......

chiefdanfox · Post by **chiefdanfox** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 4:45 pm

Generally ecology does include both the environment and the critters, but I think with respect to LNT we are preserving recreational resources as defined in a plethora of NEPA studies, requirements and documents.

Those resources do include things like views, multiple use, etc. Leaving a shitload of junk or burn scars on the playa would diminish those resources, irregardless of their subjective value. The American people have decided that this land has an intrinsic recreational value and should be preserved, restored and used without wholesale abuse and abandonment.

I also think it is astounding that 40k people can create an ephemeral city, and leave so little impact. I guess it goes to show just how wealthy we really are: We can create a city the size of Hutchinson KS for a week, just for the leisure of it all.

What do you do when...

playa burn scars and the further Pussification of BRC

Re: playa burn scars and the further Pussification of BRC

Re: playa burn scars and the

Re: playa burn scars and the

please oh please let it happen

Re: please oh please let it happen

Ecology