Iraq War explained

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Sat Jan 31, 2004 9:16 pm

DF, You may be right but I dont think those that are afraid of you are ready for you.

DE FACTO · Post by **DE FACTO** » Sat Jan 31, 2004 9:23 pm

sigh,

seems you may be right. but cars can and do run on air

Not the most attractive as of yet but they do come out in september.

various styles at that.

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Sat Jan 31, 2004 10:11 pm

That car looks weak.
Where's the specs on it?

Can you back up your claims?

DE FACTO · Post by **DE FACTO** » Sat Jan 31, 2004 10:20 pm

DVD Burner wrote:That car looks weak.
Where's the specs on it?

Can you back up your claims?

Sigh......

never doubt me.

http://www.theaircar.com/

read my threads more often.

you guys and those that run to 3 and precipt's are weak.

ya'll are boring me.

Good night.

Rob the Wop · Post by **Rob the Wop** » Sun Feb 01, 2004 12:47 am

I have an electric vehicle, the Gizmo In the area I live in, with the travel I do most, it is an efficient way to help the environment/oil dependancy issue.

Problem that a lot of folks don't think about is that it still takes fossil feuls most of the time to run it. In my area 90% of the electricity is from hydro-electric sources- so the power used to juice of the car is fairly oil-free.

Not so in most areas. While it is still more effecient to use fossil fuels in a controlled environment, it still burns it up. So crap being burnt is simply not from your vehicle, its just burnt a little farther away to charge the vehicle up.

Same as your "air powered" vehicle. It takes energy to compress the air into the tank in the first place. I'd bet money that it would be more efficient to charge a battery and then use the power to directly run an engine- than to use the energy to run a pump, to fill a tank, and then use the tank to run an engine.[/url]

DE FACTO · Post by **DE FACTO** » Sun Feb 01, 2004 3:02 am

Mr. wop never fails to deliver. A truely intelligent Cacophonist at heart.

Ok so you have a point.

so what is to stop one from making a simple modification? Say, implementing a generator attached to the wheel. Or to clarify, a motor attached to a generator with a quartz like device to monitor the flow of electricity that comes from the generator, and have another device syphon the excess voltage to a battery for storage?

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Sun Feb 01, 2004 9:52 am

DF, It looks to me that your looking for free energy. My father(a millright) look for this all his life. My oldest son (42) took up this mantel when he was very young.

Take todays internal combustion engine.
THey would burn less gas per mile IF: The manufacturer did not have add pacifiers forr the goverment. Take the damn things off and your mileage will go up.

(example) The first smog device was a air pump. The thing took ten HP to drive. It takes that much extra to go up a slight incline. The devices funtion was to pump air through the tail pipe. That way you got less smog per volume. So you have the same amount of smog per gallon. The air pump takes ten more HP to operate=more gas= more smog= dumb public= happy goverment. That was in the 60s. It has been all down hill from there. The enternal combustion engine could be built to run on less fuel. Smaller engine could power generators for hy bred electric car. By changing the mind set the would be a path to other types of transpoation power.

Please excuse the over rant.

DE FACTO · Post by **DE FACTO** » Sun Feb 01, 2004 9:57 am

SED wrote:The only right the various warring factions in Iraq or any other place have to "their" oil is their ability to govern themselves. Muslim culture can't even trust itself with its own women. Do you imagine they can handle oil, or modern economics or even civil discourse?

Anyone who has a real problem with Bush's territorial imperative can go ahead and deed over all their stuff to some local Indian tribe. It's all stolen, anyway.

Muslim culture established itself by conquest. Nothing wrong with that, but there it is. Muslim nationalists are only the latest oppressors.

Not to beat a dead horse but I never got to respond to this the way I wanted to. It's kind of obvious that SED had too much Mad Cow to eat when he wrote this and everyone else already had a crack at the Muslim part of it, but I just wanted to say that what he posted in the above is straight out of the book of the Christian right wing conservative neanderthals. All religions and politics are this stupid.

Worst of it all is that all of this is not even about democrats/republican this religion or that, no one on this board has made mention of the fact that these are all skull and bones little boys and PNAC.

oh well. does'nt matter anyway, I bet by the time november gets here the media will have everyone convinced the so called race to the presidency will be close again, (even though that wont be true) and we'll have the Cheney/Bush admin in again for 4 more and that will be that. That's what everyone wants anyway right?

http://www.pnac.info/

DE FACTO · Post by **DE FACTO** » Sun Feb 01, 2004 10:03 am

unjonharley wrote:DF, It looks to me that your looking for free energy.

The enternal combustion engine could be built to run on less fuel. Smaller engine could power generators for hy bred electric car. By changing the mind set the would be a path to other types of transpoation power.
Please excuse the over rant.

Thanks for further intellectual
stimulation unjonharley.

I'm not looking for free energy however you hit the nail on the head.
it's all in the mind set.

You have not over ranted. your point is quite clear. I've been trying to do the same.

ramen · Post by **ramen** » Sun Feb 01, 2004 12:57 pm

DE FACTO wrote:
ramen wrote:Yah sure. You hear this from people who believe in zero-point energy...[snip]... PR lies or collateral effects.
So let me understand you here.........

Cars cannot run on air?

Good DF. Misquote then attack the poster in terms of the misquote. Classic political strategy. I think that's also called a straw man attack.

You should run for office. Never once said cars couldn't run on air, only that there's no replacement for oil in our current technological structure.

Your air cars need oil to power the infrastructure that builds them.

ramen · Post by **ramen** » Sun Feb 01, 2004 1:04 pm

DE FACTO wrote:I must apologize to Ramen and SED for over estimating thier intelligence.

...[SNIP]...

I like a good debate as well as the next person.

I guess what you really don't like is actually having to think your way through an argument, hence your slur on the person rather than their argument, also known as an ad hominem attack.

I guess I better bone up on rhetoric before I sling any more Latin around.

Tancorix · Post by **Tancorix** » Sun Feb 01, 2004 1:46 pm

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacie ... minem.html

This is something I'm guilty of using...until someone pointed it out to me I didn't even realize I was doing it. And I still have some slip through, old habits are hard to break.

Fallacy: Ad Hominem

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Description of Ad Hominem
Translated from Latin to English, "Ad Hominem" means "against the man" or "against the person."

An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument. Typically, this fallacy involves two steps. First, an attack against the character of person making the claim, her circumstances, or her actions is made (or the character, circumstances, or actions of the person reporting the claim). Second, this attack is taken to be evidence against the claim or argument the person in question is making (or presenting). This type of "argument" has the following form:

Person A makes claim X.
Person B makes an attack on person A.
Therefore A's claim is false.
The reason why an Ad Hominem (of any kind) is a fallacy is that the character, circumstances, or actions of a person do not (in most cases) have a bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made (or the quality of the argument being made).

Example of Ad Hominem

Bill: "I believe that abortion is morally wrong."
Dave: "Of course you would say that, you're a priest."
Bill: "What about the arguments I gave to support my position?"
Dave: "Those don't count. Like I said, you're a priest, so you have to say that abortion is wrong. Further, you are just a lackey to the Pope, so I can't believe what you say."

DE FACTO · Post by **DE FACTO** » Sun Feb 01, 2004 1:51 pm

ramen wrote:
I guess what you really don't like is actually having to think your way through an argument, hence your slur on the person rather than their argument, also known as an ad hominem attack.

I guess I better bone up on rhetoric before I sling any more Latin around.

Touch'e Sir Ramen. please accept my appology. You truely are a human of substance.

To confuse your intellect to be amoungst the Likes of SED was wrong.
You at least had balls enough to stand up to 1/10th the use of my N.Y. state of vicious mind.

Again, please accept my apology.

DE FACTO · Post by **DE FACTO** » Sun Feb 01, 2004 2:04 pm

Now please note, and this is to no one in particular.

I belive I have just demonstrated that I have no problem acknowledging when I am wrong.

This is a feature in my persona that I enjoy because it allows me to move on rather quickly.

It leaves me with an open mind and capable of accepting new ideas.

It would be nice if more could be able to adjust this way about the use of other types of energy also to see what's wrong with people like Cheney/Bush and the like.

(the things I will do sometimes to make a point.)

DE FACTO · Post by **DE FACTO** » Sun Feb 01, 2004 2:23 pm

And technopatra warned me about that.

Tancorix · Post by **Tancorix** » Sun Feb 01, 2004 2:25 pm

DE FACTO wrote:Now please note, and this is to no one in particular.

I belive I have just demonstrated that I have no problem acknowledging when I am wrong.

This is a feature in my persona that I enjoy because it allows me to move on rather quickly.

It leaves me with an open mind and capable of accepting new ideas.

Ok, so you can admit when your wrong. Did you learn the lessons though? Every situation where I'm wrong and am called out on it is an opportunity to improve. I like to move on too but sometimes doing so causes you to miss points and sub-lessons that might not be apparent at first glance.

DE FACTO · Post by **DE FACTO** » Sun Feb 01, 2004 2:32 pm

Tancorix wrote:
Ok, so you can admit when your wrong. Did you learn the lessons though? Every situation where I'm wrong and am called out on it is an opportunity to improve. I like to move on too but sometimes doing so causes you to miss points and sub-lessons that might not be apparent at first glance.

Sure I do as I have just said.

"Touch'e Sir Ramen. please accept my appology. You truely are a human of substance."

In reply to the use of this statement.

"hence your slur on the person rather than their argument, also known as an ad hominem attack."

Did you learn what I have just done and how I provoked a response?

DE FACTO · Post by **DE FACTO** » Sun Feb 01, 2004 3:13 pm

Hey,

The exchange of insults between Ramen and I were no where as bad as SED, Trey and Precipts uncalled for insults twords me.

And I've been nice to them first.

I truely did owe Ramen an apology. Plus Ramens insults were much more challenging. A show of signs of life and intelligence. an earned respect.

Ramen got caught in a crossfire.

Now that's not to say that I agree with Ramens point of view on perpetual motion machines.
Now can we move on?

Rob the Wop · Post by **Rob the Wop** » Sun Feb 01, 2004 5:04 pm

DE FACTO wrote:Mr. wop never fails to deliver. A truely intelligent Cacophonist at heart.

Ok so you have a point.

so what is to stop one from making a simple modification? Say, implementing a generator attached to the wheel. Or to clarify, a motor attached to a generator with a quartz like device to monitor the flow of electricity that comes from the generator, and have another device syphon the excess voltage to a battery for storage?

Attaching a generator to the wheel would add extra friction/drag, which would require more power to turn the wheel. Depriving the vehicle of HP plus shortening the range of the vehicle.

So if you wanted to use an air powered vehicle, the only place you could effeciantly add a generator would be regenerative braking. But then the batteries would add a bunch of weight. Plus to utilize the power generated, you would need a motor- which adds weight.

Now if you used a water/wind mill to manually power a pump that fills the air tank- you transfer mechanical power directly to the gas and back when in the car. Bingo! Efficiency!

The problem happens when you transfer one form of energy to another. There will always be a loss somehow. Electric cars also have a problem in that in order to get the horsepower needed for larger vehicles- you need more batteries. Which weight more (RV batteries are heavy bastards), which require more HP to push them, which require more batteries, etc.

People in the US are horsepower crazy. You can pretty much figure more HP to equal more power required. The Gizmo has a 7HP engine. That's all. It goes 43mph max with a 45mile range (best case- temperature makes a huge difference with bateries). You can make incredibley effecient vehicles if you don't mind a lower top speed and slower acceleration.

You can also run propane or various other fuels to make things cleaner. Unfortunately it all comes down to the almighty buck. Simply put- oil from the Middle Eastern region is cheaper. Car manufactorers discovered that people buy cars with more "oomph" than slower cars that are more efficient. Plus gas cars (since they are mass produced) are far cheaper per HP than hybrid, electric, air, etc.

So it's not just our politicians. A lot of car manufacturers started on the electric trend to quit when few were willing to dish out big bucks for a slower, less powerful vehicle. We need to drill it into the pimply-faced 18 year olds that he/she should buy the electric "Yugo" over the gas powered "Mustang".

DE FACTO · Post by **DE FACTO** » Sun Feb 01, 2004 5:18 pm

ah ha, ok so give me a minute to figure out another alternative.

Even though..... I still have a problem understanding how if you use an electric motor connected to a generator why that should'nt work.

if you turn them on it's side,cyntrifical force should deal with the friction/drag problem no?

SED · Post by **SED** » Sun Feb 01, 2004 6:04 pm

Ad hominem?

Ad simian, maybe.

I'll apologize to the readers of this thread who were offended by my attack on DF, but not to him. He so clearly enjoys it. Perhaps I should also apologize to all the fucking idiots of the world for grouping DF among them.

I'll apologize directly to Technopatra and Stuart, whose opinions and attitudes I respect and have failed to live up to.

But we still need oil for everything. What's the paint on that little go-cart made of, and how was it delivered to the factory? What powered the computer that regenerated it's image?

I'll stand by my remarks about Islam and oil reserves. Specifically, if anyone with oil doesn't want to play our game, that's fine. The planet is oozing with the stuff and we'll choke on the fumes long before we'll ever run out.

Any country whose people allows their government to cross us, or protects those who do is looking for a fall.

Islam subjugates women and vilifies Jews. It's their book. Their theology is even more repressive than Catholicism, which also sought to control the world by violent conquest.

There is no justice. There is only law. It is far better to go with the United States than to go against it. It doesn't matter who is in the White House, either. GWB is only more bald faced than previous presidents. For my part, I don't have som much a problem with his foreign policy as I do with his attitude. He's an arrogant little prick. He's also short sighted in terms of his tax policy, but Clinton and Gore (and Nader, though he too is a fucking idiot) would say anything to get elected too, so why singkle out W as a devil?

It is far better that we have the largest military in the world than anyone else. Our soldiers are not conscripts. The profits from our military suppliers can be readily shared by anyone who wished to buy stock in their corporations. The media is only as liberal or conservative as the companies that own them, who are inturn governed by shareholders.

Islam forbids usuary, which is the engine of modern comerce. It purports to forbid this practice on the grounds that interest taking perpetuates poverty, yet the opposite is true.

A handful of Arab mathematicians made significant contribution quite a while ago. Yet those who flew the plane into the towers are incapable of building them. That's a quote from Thomas Friedman.

Rob the Wop · Post by **Rob the Wop** » Sun Feb 01, 2004 6:15 pm

DE FACTO wrote:ah ha, ok so give me a minute to figure out another alternative.

Even though..... I still have a problem understanding how if you use an electric motor connected to a generator why that should'nt work.

if you turn them on it's side,cyntrifical force should deal with the friction/drag problem no?

Nope. The drag is in turning the generator. Take an RV battery, attach an electric motor, and an electric generator. Should run forever, right? Nope. The power to turn the wheel will always be less than the power generated. Adding a motor and generator inline with the air powered motor would only decrease the power to the wheels and not add enough power to the battery to make much difference.

Hybrids are great in that they use the gas motor to build battery power, then use that power on short juants. But they rely on the gas motor for long trips. 'Cause electric motors have the most "power" available from a dead standstill and don't need to "idle".

As an example of the HP issue I raised, here's some stats on some of the more popular "hybrid" cars-
Toyota Prius
Gas engine - 70HP
Electric enigine - 44HP

Honda Insight
Gas engine - 67HP
Couldn't find the electric motor HP specs on their site.

Anyway, that kinda gives you an idea of what we're up against. You want to go zoom zoom- you won't be doing it cheaply with alternative fuel vehicles. Not when the price of a hybrid car will get you a 200HP+ gasoline car.

If you want to make a difference, convince others that the sacrifice from towing, hauling, accelrating, and top speed will be better in the long run. In reality most driving is done alone to work, or a trip to the store. But most people can't afford two cars, and some solutions don't work for distance. I have a Forester and the Gizmo. If I need to hual, I have a trailer hitch on the Forester. If I need long distance, I take the Forester. I got it because it has a fairly strong 4-cyclinder engine (165HP), yet gets about 30 mpg. So I can camp, hual, and go places. But 90% of the time I drive around the Gizmo. Or walk.

DE FACTO · Post by **DE FACTO** » Sun Feb 01, 2004 6:19 pm

Out of great respect to Technopatra I will (as difficult as it is ) restrain from making any comment and from insulting SED any further than he has just insulted himself.

(because I'm sure he cant figure it out for himself.)

DE FACTO · Post by **DE FACTO** » Sun Feb 01, 2004 9:12 pm

Ok,

So Mr. Wop, do you use CAD?

Rob the Wop · Post by **Rob the Wop** » Mon Feb 02, 2004 12:28 am

DE FACTO wrote:Ok,

So Mr. Wop, do you use CAD?

I learned AutoCAD lite a long time ago.
I deal with electronic schematics on a daily basis at work.

But the answer is NO! If I'm not at work, I'm not going to invest that much time looking through CAD drawings. I give up, you have a device that will defeat all gasoline powered cars and is more efficient than electric cars (which really isn't that hard to do).

If it's too complicated to turn into a .gif, it'll just be another thing taking up my time. Nor will I invest the time to determine the number of kWh it takes to fill a air tank on the aformentioned car, create a chart of kWh vs. available HP over time, then determine the same stats on a purely electric car. Mine works fine and I'm happy with it. If you like your air powered car, and it's a viable solution for you- go get it. It could very well be that it is more efficient to compress the air into the tank using electric means. I simply think it might be a case of converting energy from electric (pump) -> mechanical (compressed air engine) would me more wasteful than simply mechanical (directly from electric). The only advantage I see is forgoing the added weight expenditure for batteries.

Plus I can't tell from your link what
a) the top speed is
b) the HP is
c) the range is
d) the full stats on the refilling time

So I have no way of knowing how efficient the vehicle really is.

DE FACTO · Post by **DE FACTO** » Mon Feb 02, 2004 12:33 am

Thanks Mr. wop.

I'm gonna give it a go and just show the end results..

I still think it's possible.

Apollonaris Zeus · Post by **Apollonaris Zeus** » Mon Feb 02, 2004 7:43 am

programing resumes.

Religious insurgents killed 26 kurds today expanding their destabilization plan of Iraq. And the intelligence Agencies want immunity from the administration's gung-ho sexing (I like that Brit adaptation) of the information!

Who were they using for informants, Al Quaeda!

When you see GW.

Tell him AZ sez, "Thanks!"

A II Z

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Mon Feb 02, 2004 10:53 am

they toiled long, hard hours in conditions the average, modern hipster could not handle.

actually, research shows that the average hunter gatherer works a hell of a lot less than the average american. They spend most of their time hanging about the hearth gossiping.

and as far as heating your house in a snowstorm, while solar won't do it at that moment, a geo-thermal exchanger will.

SED · Post by **SED** » Mon Feb 02, 2004 2:19 pm

Well, all right Stuart. A rational response. A welcome break from the shrillings of Chimp and the feculent maunderings of DF.

What research shows this? Can you cite a source? Please do.

And even so, as they sit 'round the fire laughing and singing, what condition are their teeth in? Not as good as yours, I'll bet. Do their women have mass produced and certifiably sterile tampons? Are they subject to the vagaries of climate and geography?

And ultimately, would you choose this life, not just for yourself, but for your children? My contention is that such folk generally choose modern industrial conveniences and health programs over their hunter-gatherer lifestyle.

All of which require petroleum based products and economic systems.

Now, I'm not a booster of such, but I've yet to encounter a cogent rationale for any other system. It's a wonderful dream, and we should all keep dreaming, so as to avoid the cynicism of Bush, Inc.

Their might have been a time a time when we could have escaped the petroleum trap, but it has passed. That is, for most of us. It could work for those fortunate few of us who live in the United States. But the average African just wants the frigging lights to stay on, and for the airports to stay open.

And as always, the question remains, what powers our computers which let us ramble on like this? Can anyone come up with a non-petroleum based computer and power grid? Will it sell?

These are obnoxious points.

I believe we can change things, but I don't believe we have the will to do so. The moment we develop such fortitude, fucktards such as DF will either change their tunes, be strung up from the nearest pole, or simply starve in oblivion.

DE FACTO · Post by **DE FACTO** » Mon Feb 02, 2004 2:27 pm

would you choose this life, not just for yourself, but for your children? My contention is that such folk generally choose modern industrial conveniences and health programs over their hunter-gatherer lifestyle.

All of which require petroleum based products and economic systems.

Now, I'm not a booster of such, but I've yet to encounter a cogent rationale for any other system. It's a wonderful dream, and we should all keep dreaming, so as to avoid the cynicism of Bush, Inc.

Their might have been a time a time when we could have escaped the petroleum trap, but it has passed. That is, for most of us. It could work for those fortunate few of us who live in the United States. But the average African just wants the frigging lights to stay on, and for the airports to stay open.

Bofoon. most Africans dont care about planes. They dont even have enough money to fly let alone worry about having an open airport.

woops I'm sorry, were you speaking of white africans?

Ok now I'm tearing...

Iraq War explained

Hate to bust a bubble...

Re: An apology is in store.

Re: An apology is in store.

Just a brief message on this topic and before your regular..