Iraq War explained

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Mon Feb 02, 2004 3:17 pm

so sorry, can't get you cites. Was a much remembered point from anthropology studies in my college years. Stuck out as it is so counter to conventional wisdom.

as for what choices I would make, I can't honestly say. I have no basis for personal comparison. I do know that I really would like to work less.

BlueBirdPoof · Post by **BlueBirdPoof** » Mon Feb 02, 2004 3:37 pm

I'm not sure about the original research, but it's fairly accepted in anthropological circles. Try Jared Dimond in Guns, Germs and Steel. I can't remember the author, but another book is Eve's Seed, which directly deals with the invention of Agriculture. Not sure if Sarah Blaffer Hrdy talks about it in Mother Nature, but that's another possible source.

BTW these studies are based on hunter/gatherer cultures still extant in the 20th century--which means that they were in pretty marginally productive areas. Which means that the actual time spent may be even less.

Also, it seems that hunter/gatherers were very reluctant to adopt a farming lifestyle--small wonder--they were better fed as well as less obliged to work.

A sudden thought: The Overworked American had a pretty comprehensive discussion of hours worked over historical time. You'd have to look at it yourself to see if you agree with her sources and methodology, but the figures are pretty surprising, as I recall 5+ years later.

DE FACTO · Post by **DE FACTO** » Mon Feb 02, 2004 3:45 pm

Ahhh.......This is the life.

http://www.800padutch.com/

Patience · Post by **Patience** » Mon Feb 02, 2004 5:06 pm

According to the data provided by the U.S. Department of Energy and the Office of Transportation at http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/iea/table81.html and http://www.ott.doe.gov/facts/archives/fotw220supp.shtml, we've got 1018 billion barrels of oil left in the world and use a little over 50 million barrels per day. That gives us somewhere around 55 years of oil left at the current consumption rate, by my count.

So the "long after we've choked on the fumes" stuff doesn't fly for me. We need to come up with alternatives, because this party won't last forever.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Mon Feb 02, 2004 5:06 pm

hydrogen battery pack are on the way as we speak. Get out your lap tops.

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Mon Feb 02, 2004 6:07 pm

That gives us somewhere around 55 years of oil left at the current consumption rate, by my count.

To some folks that sounds like a long time. Two generations at the most is another way of looking at it. A period of time less than the amount of time automobiles have been around is another

Patience · Post by **Patience** » Mon Feb 02, 2004 7:02 pm

Considering the massive worldwide changes that would have to take place to convert to societies not reliant upon petroleum, it seems pretty goddamned soon to me.

DE FACTO · Post by **DE FACTO** » Mon Feb 02, 2004 7:41 pm

So....like .....does that mean that someones got to come up with something like a perpetual motion machine?

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Mon Feb 02, 2004 8:35 pm

A few years ago some guy in the UK lived across the road from a pig yard. He developed a small piastic item to capture the gas from the pig shit. He and the farmer were running there cars on the gas. Never heard another word about it.

In my county we burn everythig so hot even the metals come out ash.
GWB come out strong for the guy that come up with a universal hydrogen chassis. He gave a bunch of money the the auto industry to look at it. Now that's some "black" but funny shit.

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 10:39 am

mMMmmm, guns germs and steel. Always good for debunking of one sort or another in these areas. Certainly takes a big giant crap all over the idea of manifest destiny.

Zane5100 · Post by **Zane5100** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 3:03 pm

DE FACTO wrote:So....like .....does that mean that someones got to come up with something like a perpetual motion machine?

Uh, 2nd Law of Thermodynamics may have an issue with that--if I remember my physics corrctly.

stuart wrote:guns germs and steel

I enjoyed that book too.

BlueBirdPoof · Post by **BlueBirdPoof** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 3:40 pm

Apparently Mayonnaise is a renewable oil resource.

Whoops. Wrong thread.

DE FACTO · Post by **DE FACTO** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 3:42 pm

DE FACTO · Post by **DE FACTO** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 7:03 am

Just to go back on topic for a second........

Sometimes It's difficult for me to belive which Liar I should belive,

A Group of specific liars that have been known to lie for centuries or belive a liar that has lied a few times over a few decades.

Iraq War explained.

ramen · Post by **ramen** » Fri Feb 06, 2004 12:49 am

Patience wrote:According to the data provided by the U.S. Department of Energy and the Office of Transportation at http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/iea/table81.html and http://www.ott.doe.gov/facts/archives/fotw220supp.shtml, we've got 1018 billion barrels of oil left in the world and use a little over 50 million barrels per day. That gives us somewhere around 55 years of oil left at the current consumption rate, by my count.

There very well may be that much oil in the planet, but it's not necessarily easily recoverable oil. The oil we're using today is relatively easy to extract. At some point, the price to extract oil becomes negative...more than one barrel used to extract one barrel's worth of oil.

There's still oil in the ground at that point, but it costs more oil to get it out than the end results, there's no reason to actually go and get it.

At that point, it's time to start sharpening up your spear points.

Re SED's comments about Muslin culture. The Koran teaches that all people not Muslims are infidels, that Jews are monkeys and pigs, and that all non-Muslims should be taxed extra until they convert.

This is not to say that there aren't beautiful and compassionate Muslims, only that the basis of that religion discriminates in powerfully antagonistic ways between the Muslims and all other people. This is a warrior creed seeking to convert through the house of war when all other means fail.

ramen · Post by **ramen** » Fri Feb 06, 2004 12:54 am

stuart wrote:
they toiled long, hard hours in conditions the average, modern hipster could not handle.
and as far as heating your house in a snowstorm, while solar won't do it at that moment, a geo-thermal exchanger will.

Stuart,

I'm familiar with the geothermal application that involves burying hose in the ground to recirculate air into a cool zone and then up into living spaces, but that's not going to heat a house from below freezing into a livable environment. Tell me if I'm wrong here....just never heard of it being used for heating, just cooling.

The hunter-gatherers were also bigger than their neolithic descendants. They ate better, were larger and, absent the diseases of childhood or trauma, lived longer as well.

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Fri Feb 06, 2004 10:52 am

I saw a cool science program that showed folks in the midwest heating their homes in winter with a thermal exchanger. They seem to be quite pricey to install but over the course of a decade or so they pay themselves off with energy bill savings.

oh, and as far as the Koran being bigoted, remember that in our fine nation there are folks effectively culling verses from the bible in order to justify their hatred of 'the other' whether it be gays, blacks, catholics, jews, you name it. Not to mention those verses that endorse killing your children.

Can I get a witness?

DE FACTO · Post by **DE FACTO** » Fri Feb 06, 2004 3:27 pm

Can I get a witness?

halleluea and praise the Stuart. Thank ya Stuart. Stuart have mercy. Amen.

So and now let me get this straight again....not to get too off topic here.

Bush is appointing the pres. of Yale (big time Skull and bones good ol boy) as one of the ones that will investigate the Iraq intelligence fuck up.

SED · Post by **SED** » Fri Feb 06, 2004 11:10 pm

stuart wrote: oh, and as far as the Koran being bigoted, remember that in our fine nation there are folks effectively culling verses from the bible in order to justify their hatred of 'the other' whether it be gays, blacks, catholics, jews, you name it. Not to mention those verses that endorse killing your children.

Can I get a witness?

q

Our fine nation was founded by the Euro Taliban of the 17th century. My own ancestor fled Puritan Boston for Rhode Island. The tradition remains in greater or lessor degree in various parts of the country.

It's far less likely that those to whom you refer can wield as much influence as the clerics of Islam do. We do have that pesky separation of church and state clause which though perhaps inadequate, clearly leaves us in better shape than those Musli, countries whose government functions purely at the pleasure of the mullahs.

Militant religious extremism of any sort is evil. I'm mainly interested in Islam because we're economically (oil) and politically (Israel) entangled with tribal cultures whose thought systems seems to differ so sharply from ours (American style capitalists and consumers).

Islam as it is widely, if not generally, practised subjugates women, discourages economic growth, cenures the will of the common citizens, all while fixating on a particular ethnic minority (Jews) as the source of its problems.

DE FACTO · Post by **DE FACTO** » Sat Feb 07, 2004 12:41 am

SED wrote:
stuart wrote: oh, and as far as the Koran being bigoted, remember that in our fine nation there are folks effectively culling verses from the bible in order to justify their hatred of 'the other' whether it be gays, blacks, catholics, jews, you name it. Not to mention those verses that endorse killing your children.

Can I get a witness?
q

Our fine nation was founded by the Euro Taliban of the 17th century. My own ancestor fled Puritan Boston for Rhode Island. The tradition remains in greater or lessor degree in various parts of the country.

It's far less likely that those to whom you refer can wield as much influence as the clerics of Islam do. We do have that pesky separation of church and state clause which though perhaps inadequate, clearly leaves us in better shape than those Musli, countries whose government functions purely at the pleasure of the mullahs.

Militant religious extremism of any sort is evil. I'm mainly interested in Islam because we're economically (oil) and politically (Israel) entangled with tribal cultures whose thought systems seems to differ so sharply from ours (American style capitalists and consumers).

Islam as it is widely, if not generally, practised subjugates women, discourages economic growth, cenures the will of the common citizens, all while fixating on a particular ethnic minority (Jews) as the source of its problems.

A quote from Nine Inch Nails....(Trent Resnor.) ;

he sewed his eyes shut because he is afraid to see
he tries to tell me what i put inside of me
he got the answers to ease my curiosity
he dreamed a god up and called it christianity

god is dead and no one cares
if there is a hell i'll see you there

he flexed his muscles to keep his flock of sheep in line
he made a virus that would kill off all the swine
his perfect kingdom of killing, suffering and pain
demands devotion atrocities done in his name

god is dead and no one cares
if there is a hell i'll see you there
your god is dead and no one cares
if there is a hell i'll see you there

"will you die for this?
will you die for this?
will you die for this?
will you die for this?"

god is dead and no one cares
if there is a hell i'll see you there
(your god is dead)
god is dead (and no one cares)
and no one cares (drowning in his own hypocrisy)
if there is a hell (see you)
i'll see you there (you there)

SED you do it every time.

Wind_Borne · Post by **Wind_Borne** » Sat Feb 07, 2004 12:57 pm

News today from Iraq: another mass grave uncovered.

I'm sure the formerly oppressed ethnic groups in Iraq rejoice in the end of Saddam's horror. They probably care little about WMDs, oil, or Howard Dean's rhetoric.

If my neighbor was a cheat and a thief, I would despise him.
If my neighbor kept a cache of weapons, I would fear him.
But if my neighbor beat his kids, I would kick his door down and stop him -- right now!

KellY · Post by **KellY** » Sat Feb 07, 2004 1:21 pm

But how many of your neighbor's kids would you kill to save the rest?

Wind_Borne · Post by **Wind_Borne** » Sat Feb 07, 2004 2:53 pm

I would endeavor to kill none.
I would endeavor to save those by my action that would have been lost by my inaction.
I would pray for the wisdom to see clearly, and the courage to act accordingly.
I would accept that I might fail.

Your question stirs me to pull Beowulf of the shelf and read it again.

LeChatNoir · Post by **LeChatNoir** » Sat Feb 07, 2004 3:42 pm

In the sincere interest of honest discourse and not emotionally charged flaming back and forth, may I chime in?

If my neighbor was a cheat and a thief, I would despise him.
If my neighbor kept a cache of weapons, I would fear him.
But if my neighbor beat his kids, I would kick his door down and stop him -- right now!

I admire the sentiment of this comment. I mean that. Compassion is all to thin these days and we need more of it anywhere we can get it. The only problem is that the situation in Iraq seems, to me, to be much broader in scope. It simply is not a black and white issue. No one will ever hear me say that I miss Saddam. He was a dirty rotten turd and that’ll get no argument from me. I don’t know that Iraq is better off without him, at least not for the moment. Women don’t go outside for fear of rape and kidnapping, when under Saddam the youth used to be able to attend a disco until the wee hours of the mornings... truth (not everywhere, mind you, but Iraq did/does have discos). It is apparently pretty damn rough over there. But aside from that, Saddam is a rotten little turd... one that the US Government helped get into place. When he was valuable to the powers that be, “we” were all too eager to give him a hand. In fact that infamous picture of Rummy shaking his hand was taken shortly after the Kurds were gassed. But there were things to gain by letting that slide... Iran needed minding.

There are lots and lots of despots around the globe. Heck... Africa has enough to go around, much less Central and South America. Most, if you dig into it you’ll find, are of “our” own making. Pinochet for example. The argument can’t be made convincingly that we had to do something “right this second” to Saddam because we are not doing anything about all the others out there (nor would I want the US to undertake such a task). More folks die of violence in Africa every year than Saddam ever killed. But it is better for “our” interests to keep the violence going there. Gotta keep those diamonds flowing. Seems to me that a better idea would be to not mess with other nations under the guise of political interest” (read money and power interests for the already established powers). In war one thing is for certain... the poor always pay the biggest bill.

I support the troops over there. They are all somebody’s husband/wife/son/daughter/father/mother. I wish that not a single person were hurt on either of the many sides to this conflict... not one. But it doesn’t work that way. I only feel in my heart that there was a better way of doing this... even if it was just being open, honest, and have a good plan before diving in. But it may be too much to ask of a government... and I don’t think honesty was ever in the reasoning of invading.

My two cents worth... As I stated at the start of this, I am offering my opinion in the interest of having a conversation and would like hear what you all say. I will listen to all points... I promise, but I expect the same in return. Fair enough???

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Feb 07, 2004 5:14 pm

LCN, great post. one only needs to look at the lack of u.s. action in places like rwandato get a feel as to the capriciousness -- or lack of it -- in the iraq situation.

Wind_Borne · Post by **Wind_Borne** » Sat Feb 07, 2004 5:47 pm

LaChatNoir -- well said.

I hope my remarks were taken as a statement of compassion and not emotional flame throwing.

I think we went into Iraq too quickly; but Iraq's future will be better for it.
I think the Europeans refused to see the genocide in Bosnia; and we were slow push the point.
I think we have neglected to help people we should be helping.
I think we should stand for humanity, not for stability.

But mostly I think we must engage the world and not slip into isolationism or America-First-ism. One's compassion should not end at the US border. Sure, we can't and shouldn't try to fix all the world's troubles. But we shouldn't be as infants, who believe that by looking away a thing will cease to be.

If you say to me that the Iraq war was not justified, I'll say "perhaps you're right -- tell me more." If you say to me that no war is justified, I'll ask "if a man is struggling for life and liberty, do you think I should forsake him?"

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. ~ Edmund Burke

LeChatNoir · Post by **LeChatNoir** » Sun Feb 08, 2004 10:32 am

I hope my remarks were taken as a statement of compassion and not emotional flame throwing.

Rest assured that they were not taken that way by me.

I think we went into Iraq too quickly; but Iraq's future will be better for it.

I sure hope it will. I fear it will be a long road though. And the fact that those who are orchestrating the power structure are completely unaware of what it means to be an Iraqi won't help matters any. Western models of governing may not work, or even be what they would want. Hope springs eternal, though, and the deed is done. The question is now, “What is the right thing to do?”

I think the Europeans refused to see the genocide in Bosnia; and we were slow push the point.

True... I would like to add that Americans, in general, don’t have any real idea of what happens outside of our borders. The domestic media should be just one of many places you look for information.

But mostly I think we must engage the world and not slip into isolationism or America-First-ism.

I agreed wholeheartedly. Like it or not, there’s other folks on this planet and we’d better learn to live with them. Xenophobe... Bad. I believe a nation can remain sovereign and still be a good neighbor. If neighborhoods worked by the example most governments set forth, I don’t think there would be anyone who wouldn’t cry foul. And on a similar note, often people confuse jingoism with patriotism.

If you say to me that no war is justified, I'll ask "if a man is struggling for life and liberty, do you think I should forsake him?"

Boy, that’s a good point. This is at the heart of one of the conundrums I face. I don’t like war. I don’t like other people in pain, even if you call yourself my enemy. This can case me great emotional distress if I let it. But there are cases where war could certainly be justified. The fact that someone else is fighting for freedom does not mean that we, as a nation, should go off fighting the good fight. One man’s terrorist is often another man’ freedom fighter, so it is often better to let those who differ sort out there differences (assuming they are playing by “rules of war”... Oh, God... rules of war... is that just not bizarre to even say, much less seriously?) But your question does boil things down to their essence. If I see someone else in need of help, do I help them? Of course I do... that is at the core of who I am. But to take this line of reasoning a step further and use it to justify war may or may not work. I believe war should be the absolute, last, last, last, option. After all other diplomatic means have failed only. But then the argument could be made, and quite convincingly, that there are times when force is needed and needed quick. The previous article on Rwanda, for instance (Thank you genghis). If anyone has not read it, I recommend you take the time to do so.

What is the right answer? Jeez... I don’t yet know. Perhaps it lies in the individual moment with a heavy dose of mutual respect for other lives?

Sure, we can't and shouldn't try to fix all the world's troubles

Allow me to put forth the thought that maybe, yes we should try... just not with guns a bombs. A good start would be to stop and ask, “Why is this happening and what can I do differently to help alleviate the situation?” Thanks, Wind_Borne, for rasing some valid points.

DE FACTO · Post by **DE FACTO** » Sun Feb 08, 2004 3:23 pm

So not to piss anybody off, even though there are those here that will be pissed off with anything I say......

Anyone have any opinions on the Tim Russert's interview with Bush about not answering 2 of the most important questions anyone could ask?

When asked about the fugitive Osama bin Laden the suspected mastermind of the Sept. 11 attacks his answer," Bush said. "I have no idea whether we will capture or bring him to justice. ..
and as to the Skull & Bones question....no comment.

For those that did'nt see the interview and only want a quick read....here

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s ... _interview

Wind_Borne · Post by **Wind_Borne** » Sun Feb 08, 2004 7:12 pm

And thanks for your feedback, LaChatNoir.

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Mon Feb 09, 2004 10:59 am

as a matter of perspective, we have someone in office who hit triple digits on the execution front during his brief tenure as governor of texas. It would be interesting to compare pop. vs time vs number killed. I am sure hussein would end up the enigmatic winner, still, it would be an interesting comparo. Well now, you might say, those folks in Iraq were innocent. Sure, for the most part that is more than likely true. But we must also understand that Bush executed the severely mentally retarded and also those (the groups are not mutually excusive) who were represented by attorneys who were drunk, sleeping, or both during the trial.

glass houses and all that.

I don't mean to equate the two, I think that is a useless excersise. Just understand that we aint all chaste and shit and although we have the power to do so, there are other countries in this world whose sense of social justice would be much better if applied and probably much more appreciated.