The Contraption 2.0

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:39 pm

LeChatNoir wrote:Lookin good unjon... when will you test the coaster/brake multihub out?

Have to build a tinny hub and sprocket for the electric motor.. The set up in the picture is on one frame . The rear axel on another.. Will have to marry them.. Had the right chain hanging in the shop "save 40$"

The axel sprockets are to bulky.. So will have rebuild them..

My mind can't get hold of a steering.. Have the front axel and spinddels figured but not steering

LeChatNoir · Post by **LeChatNoir** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:17 pm

My mind can't get hold of a steering.. Have the front axel and spinddels figured but not steering

If I was there, we could brainstormâ€¦ otherwise, can you unload a pic so we can all pitch in and toss ideas around?

I was gonna fire the boiler tonight, but a big storm rolled through. We needed the rain around here, so Iâ€˜ll not complain one bit. However, the olâ€™ rust bucket is parked on the outside (under a tarp), so I couldnâ€™t see if the engine mods made any difference or not. Instead, I took the opportunity to machine out the Teflon â€œsealsâ€

LeChatNoir · Post by **LeChatNoir** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:26 pm

Dusza Beben wrote:

Nice!!

I've always loved Steinlen's work. His cats are terriffic.

Zulegoona · Post by **Zulegoona** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 4:23 am

with the tolerances already being so tight before the Teflon, Iâ€™m wondering how the fit will change with heat expansion once everything is up to running temperature. It seems like things could get a little tight

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:08 am

This problem must have been solved by someone before.
It seems like I even read about someone coming up with sleeve valves for a two cycle that sealed well.
Maybe the UP steam shop would help out?

What kind of teflon are you using?
My understanding is that for some uses like suspension bushings, pure teflon is too soft and they use a reinforced teflon.
Is that what you are using?
A matrix?

Looks really good.

LeChatNoir · Post by **LeChatNoir** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 6:08 am

It indeed might become a problem, Z. We'll see soon enough I suppose. it is possible, since steel and bronze have different coefficients of expansion. But its not like Iâ€™m heating them to 900 degrees either. 2-300 or so. Time will tell.

And most of the steam folks I've talked to tell me rotary valves are always an issue of some sort. One fellow said he made his shaft tapered with a matching teflon seat for it, backed it up with a spring and got good results.

There's a reason most steam engine use a "steam chest" type of valve... its lots more reliable and lots less trouble.

Oh... and the inserts are machined from mechanical PTFE.

LeChatNoir · Post by **LeChatNoir** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 6:13 am

Zulegoona wrote:with the tolerances already being so tight before the Teflon, Iâ€™m wondering how the fit will change with heat expansion once everything is up to running temperature. It seems like things could get a little tight

I just remembered...

The other day when I couldnâ€™t get the engine to work, it still go very warm, too hot to lay your hand on, because Iâ€™d been running the steam through it and out the vent lines for the inner chamber.

Upon hooking it back up to the compressed air it seemed to actually run smoother and quieter while this warm. So who knows?

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 6:15 am

Dusza Beben wrote:

We named our youngest son Jontom.
Prononeced in French it would be about "Yelow Cat"

LeChatNoir · Post by **LeChatNoir** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 7:45 pm

Yellow Cat is better than Yellow Dog any day!!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So...

The engine moved under steam power for the first time tonight!!

This is progressâ€¦ well, sort of.

It is a mile stone, certainly. But it was less that desirable since it still seems Iâ€™m loosing energy between the boiler and the engine.

Also took a lot of fiddling and the feed water thermostat failed again. Iâ€™m thinking that Iâ€™m putting too much antifreeze into it. I need enough to boil and pressurize the piston that activates the valve, but not enough to pop a seam or anything. Gotta play around with less and see how that does (Its worth mentioning how glad I am that this stuff is housed inside two layers of 18 gauge sheet steel sandwiching an inch of ceramic insulation).

But either way, by again manually messing with the feed water, I was able to get a pretty consistent amount of steam for short durations to keep the engine turning. If I could keep it at around 70 psi it seemed to really hum along well.

At first I could only get around 40-50 psi and this was not enough to start the flywheel, but it was enough to turn it and even pick up speed after I gave it an assisted start.

I donâ€™t know if it would have started it spinning on its own at 70 psi or not, since Iâ€™ve not yet cut the keyway into the one of the shafts (relying on a set screw only at this point) and a sprocket started slipping around it. I just disconnected the linkage and let it freewheel. If I can get it up to around 100psi, I think Iâ€™ll be in good shape. Problem is Iâ€™m using the garden hose for feed pressure and thatâ€™s 70-80psi at most, so Iâ€™m limited for the moment.

I was also getting some steam leakage around some of the fittings and figure that didnâ€˜t help, either. Tomorrow afternoon, Iâ€™ll tighten everything up and try to get the lines insulated too.

Iâ€™m also going to take unjon's advice (again) and hook up a gauge at the engine and see how that matches up with the one at the outlet of the boiler.

But hey!! Mark it downâ€¦ on June 27th the engine ran or the first time on steam! Optimum or not, its an accomplishment. Iâ€™ll get back to pulling my hair out tomorrow, but tonight Iâ€™m going to go sit down.

fciron · Post by **fciron** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:19 pm

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:20 pm

Hey LCN, Grab a wooden spoon from the kitchen.. Use it to find small steam leaks..They will show up on the raw wood.. And save your hands

I was shown a demonstration on steam leaks.. They used a pin hole leak to saw the handle off a wire brush.. I have always had a healthy respect for boilers..

I was part of the replacement crew on my first ship.. A wayward shell hit the forward boiler.. It cooked seven men..

I never worked in a ships boiler room.. But over the years have maintained low pressure heating plants.. even had a lic. back in the days

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:31 pm

I know you have your design already..

BUT is there a way you can preheat the feed water? Maybe with some of the exiting heat.. From the engine or a coil around the boilers stack..

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:58 pm

Wonderful!

Check out the superheating type of boilers.
You probably don't need any more complication, but it's way too late to say that now anyway, isn't it?

LeChatNoir · Post by **LeChatNoir** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 9:22 pm

I was thinking of that earlier. Maybe a coil inside the stack?

I think it'd help. I'm starting to worry that the boiler should have been a little bigger in diameter with maybe an extra coil too.

But then again, when it seems balanced right, it appears to hum along fine. I think it'll have to be tweaked until it is efficient as it can possibly be in order to perform with any consistency at all.

The boiler's steam side comes out as a 3/8" tube. From there, it continues on as 3/8â€

capjbadger · Post by **capjbadger** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:10 pm

Awesome!!

Badger

bigbluedoggy · Post by **bigbluedoggy** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:30 pm

Woohoo!!! Tis a good day in the cathouse!!! Congrats LCN!

pinemom · Post by **pinemom** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 7:41 am

Awesome LeChat!

These are days when I miss my step dad...I wish I could ask him what might help you.

He was a Blue Angels lead mechanic, then moved onto Head engineer for Atlantic Richfield Big ass fleet of oil tanker ships, then became head steam engineer for MGM grand hotel...now known as Grandsierra...

He rebuilt alot of the steam systems....
He would have loved this!

LeChatNoir · Post by **LeChatNoir** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:06 pm

The steam upgrade suffered two pretty good setbacks over the weekend.

#1) I found where some of the power loss was coming from. Steam is bypassing the pistons and getting into the crankcase.

I found this out when watery oil began bubbling out of the crankcase vent. Apparently steam bypasses the pistons with ease where the air doesnâ€™t? maybe the heat?

Regardless, this must be addressed to continue on. So I tore it down to an empty casting and examined the pistonsâ€¦ no rings at all and it was built this way. Mozy seems to think this was an ammonia compressor and apparently these were designed to work like that. Wowâ€¦

This is a pretty sight, huh?

There is enough meat on these little cast iron pistons to machine a couple of o-ring grooves in them which should deal with the blow-by problem. Okâ€¦ I can handle that.

#2) This is a bigger problem. After discussing it with a couple of folks, the general consensus is that the boiler needs more BTUâ€™sâ€¦ its simply not big enough. It will provide a measured amount of consistent, high pressure steam, but not at the continued volume needed to keep the engine turning at any rate that would work. The steam is consumed, pressure begins to drop, so I give it more water to make more steam. It will pick back up, but soon the water is coming faster than it can boil, and then its all over.

This is probably more of a factor as to why the air will run it but the steam won't. More than what is being lost around the pistons, its about flow rateâ€¦ CFM. The shop's air compressor will give out 27 CFM all day long. The boiler will give a flow rate enough to turn the engine only for only a short time.

Hmmmâ€¦.

I physically cannot cram any more burner in there than is already there and more surface area (I.e. more tubing) would help matters a lot too, since Iâ€™m afraid that simply putting more heat into that small of an area could cause problems with the copper tubing over heating nearer the flame.

Saturday evening, for a moment, I was almost ready to throw in the towel. I was so frustrated over this that I was at a loss as to what to do. But a little pep talk from good friends and a good nightâ€™s rest can really helps things sometimes.

On thing that's a knownâ€¦ I do not have the time or funding to start over and build a bigger boiler. Just not possible at this point. So any fixes I come up with must be with stuff already on hand and readily accessible and it must make sense both in application and aesthetics. Iâ€™ve got an idea that Iâ€™m already exploring and hope to know something in the near future.

I am also forming a contingency plan incase I have to drop back and punt. But this is only if what Iâ€™m thinking doesnâ€™t work. The weeks are rolling by incredibly fast and Iâ€™m running out of days. Time now for sleep, wake, work all day, but then at nightâ€¦

back to contraptioneering.

Tiahaar · Post by **Tiahaar** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:27 pm

AARRGHH*#@@!! That's what I imagine hearing coming forth from your shop Mr. Black Cat, and I've milked cows and know a few choice phrases. Well. Got to be a shocker, no rings on the pistons??? Crazy compressor. You'll get that thing steam running yet, and betcha a rootbeer float one solution to more BTUs you're looking into is an RV 5 gal propane water heater before the boiler...there are some tankless high BTU gas water heaters for home use too but they're kind of big, Paloma is the brand my dad had in his house...get yer hot water injection system on line and you should be steaming for sure! I'm rooting for you!

bigbluedoggy · Post by **bigbluedoggy** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:34 am

Let me add whatever pep I can to all the other pep talks you've had! I have every confidence that you're going to figure out how to make it work!! Keep at it!!!

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 6:52 am

Kinda cross dressing BUt, Is there enough room to put a shirt on the sleeve.. Then again you may lose some from a back pressure along the sides of the pistons.. +- who knows.. Just working the two cells i have left..

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 7:20 am

It is possible to get the 10 gallon rv heaters used.

Would better insulation help?
What about a more conductive system for the coils?

I think you'll get this working.

Would gapless rings help?
They are available.
It is possible to get parts teflon coated too.
Maybe that would be useful?

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 7:43 am

gyre wrote:It is possible to get the 10 gallon rv heaters used.

Would better insulation help?
What about a more conductive system for the coils?

I think you'll get this working.

I used one of those heaters on remote locations..re: fire restoration. It gulped fuel like crazy and the pressure droped like a rock..

MozyBonz · Post by **MozyBonz** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 7:57 am

He needs one of these. Who is going to help him get one?

I am not kidding. our cat needs help! find him a hit and miss motor people.
then we can come back and brain storm the steam system.

Le Chat knows I don't mean shit can the steam. But he has little time left and I don't want to see a burned out cat on the playa trying to make steam happen for us.
To much of a redesign on the steam system would put a big resource and time drain on our friend. I don't want to see that.

So I'm putting the call out for a 1 1/2 hp hit and miss motor for the contraption.

I know every one wants to see steam I do too but the hit and miss is the best backup. and makes the most sense at this time.
The sooner we find one the sooner he can get back to the steam system.

We found this one but it is $2250.00

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:20 am

MozyBonz wrote:

He needs one of these. Who is going to help him get one?

I am not kidding. our cat needs help! find him a hit and miss motor people.
then we can come back and brain storm the steam system.

Le Chat knows I don't mean shit can the steam. But he has little time left and I don't want to see a burned out cat on the playa trying to make steam happen for us.
To much of a redesign on the steam system would put a big resource and time drain on our friend. I don't want to see that.

So I'm putting the call out for a 1 1/2 hp hit and miss motor for the contraption.

I know every one wants to see steam I do too but the hit and miss is the best backup. and makes the most sense at this time.
The sooner we find one the sooner he can get back to the steam system.

We found this one but it is $2250.00

Damn I like those things.. Every year I go to the local "Steam UP".. They have hit and miss from the size of two foot balls to the cab and hood of a Peter Built.. Anf that would be with out the flywheels

I asked why so many could be found? The guy told me: In wwII all iron was collected for the war.. But almost every body hide on of these engines..

No use in finding LCN one from this neck of the woods.. Shipping is $$$.. I'd be into chipping in if he want to go that way for this year..

MozyBonz · Post by **MozyBonz** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:56 am

thanks john.

If you find one for a good price.

I will guarantee shipping from any where in the united states.

Tiahaar · Post by **Tiahaar** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:06 am

there's this little IH beauty on our favorite cash-drain site: hit-miss engine

MozyBonz · Post by **MozyBonz** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:18 pm

http://cgi.ebay.com/Maytag-hit-and-miss ... dZViewItem

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:54 pm

MozyBonz wrote:http://cgi.ebay.com/Maytag-hit-and-miss ... dZViewItem

We had one of those on the washing machine.. I used it when Grandmother was ill..

The guy across the marsh pumped his water with one..He'd yell (bout3/4 mile) " good morning Jon" then start the pump. That ment it was time to go to work for me.. bout sun up and just after morning milking..