Dear BMORG, A request about the Potties,

ibdave · Post by **ibdave** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 7:36 pm

Dear BMORG,
I just read the AfterBurn report 2007 http://afterburn.burningman.com/07/
In reading I would like to comment about the lighting of the portApotties banks in the open Playa. http://afterburn.burningman.com/07/dpw/potty.html
"Potty Beacons: after many years of trial and error it seems that we have finally found a solution for making the remote potty banks more visible. This year we used off-the-shelf, battery-powered emergency beacons affixed to poles. This simple solution was cost effective, easy to install and- most importantly- it actually worked. Look for them again in 2008." This in my ( and many others) opinion clearly didn't work as well as the "ORG" thinks it did.

The use permit, http://www.nv.blm.gov/Winnemucca/NEPA/b ... ndices.pdf from the BLM states (page 10 item #60c)c. Banks of toilets will be placed in the Art area and will be prominently identified at night.

The off the shelf lights just don't work well with the 1000s of blinking light in the background.
I would like to suggest using solar floodlights on poles to shine down on the banks. Just not on the ends, but add poles in the middle to truly and more importantly prominently light the banks up.

Thanks, ibdave

Captain Goddammit · Post by **Captain Goddammit** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 7:50 pm

I'll back up that opinion; the porta potties were NOT well identified or easy to find. Taking matters into my own hands, this year the Land Yacht will have GPS.

DragginLady · Post by **DragginLady** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:05 pm

whew....g etting worried when you said you were gonna take matters into your own hand....

Token · Post by **Token** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 12:28 am

Captain, you should use an off-the-shelf, battery-powered emergency beacon affixed to a pole mounted on the yacht.

Then drive at a very slow walk pace in deep playa with dimmed headlights ...

thirt33n · Post by **thirt33n** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 2:40 am

...so much creativity. there should be large, huge illuminated these

the strobes were fine for me but i gots good eyes and sense of direction....

Captain Goddammit · Post by **Captain Goddammit** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 7:21 am

Token wrote:Captain, you should use an off-the-shelf, battery-powered emergency beacon affixed to a pole mounted on the yacht.

Then drive at a very slow walk pace in deep playa with dimmed headlights ...

Problem is, what if someone catches up?!

Dr. Pyro · Post by **Dr. Pyro** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 7:56 am

I spoke at length with Robbidobbs about this exact problem, and let me assure you she's forgotten more abou the JOTS than you people know. The biggest problem is theft: If the BMOrg (or anybody else) puts solar lights out there or any other kind, unless they are chained to the ground with two-ton test, somebody will figure out a way to steal them on Day One. The problem therefore isn't lighting but the sad fact that some citizens of Black Rock City are inherantly dishonest.

ibdave · Post by **ibdave** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 8:11 am

Dr. Pyro wrote:I spoke at length with Robbidobbs about this exact problem, and let me assure you she's forgotten more abou the JOTS than you people know. The biggest problem is theft: If the BMOrg (or anybody else) puts solar lights out there or any other kind, unless they are chained to the ground with two-ton test, somebody will figure out a way to steal them on Day One. The problem therefore isn't lighting but the sad fact that some citizens of Black Rock City are inherantly dishonest.

Roddi, is THE unsung hero on the Playa. It's the BMORG's job to develop the lighting fix.
Sad thing about theft , but it's the "American Dream" for some..

I posted this to try to generate feedback and idea's. So lets hear them burners..

Post by **trilobyte** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 8:42 am

Personally, I would much rather try to figure out which of the lights on the horizon was a porta-potty bank than have the night-time vista polluted by dingy streetlights shining down on JOTS.

Perhaps to help make the porto's easier to find, they could use a standard color and publicize it. If people knew potties were always pulsing green, for example, they'd be easier to spot amidst the sea of sparkles.

My biggest complaint about the potties in 2007 was that they seemed to not do a very good job. They never bothered to put the hand sanitizer dispenser up on the bank on 9:30, and after the man burned on Saturday night they stopped servicing them altogether. In years past porta-potties were cleaned all day Sunday as well. For those of us who stayed after to get their camp sites cleaned up (and survive those terrible, terrible post playa storms), it got really disgusting after a few days.

Token · Post by **Token** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 11:21 am

Captain Goddammit wrote:
Problem is, what if someone catches up?!

Oh Captain, my Captain. I think you are creative enough to handle that situation.

Hand them some Depends ...

phil · Post by **phil** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 12:09 pm

> let me assure you she's forgotten more abou the JOTS than
> you people know.

That's _not_ reassuring. :->

> The problem therefore isn't lighting but the sad fact that some
> citizens of Black Rock City are inherantly dishonest.

I recall raising a similar issue about defacing the public art on the playa and being taken to task for not encouraging creativity, repurposing, and destruction. It's Burning Man, I was reminded.

Intubater69 · Post by **Intubater69** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 1:32 pm

Captain Goddammit wrote:
Token wrote:Captain, you should use an off-the-shelf, battery-powered emergency beacon affixed to a pole mounted on the yacht.

Then drive at a very slow walk pace in deep playa with dimmed headlights ...
Problem is, what if someone catches up?!

Well, u could zig-zag like the supply convoys during WWII, and if ur lucky, u won't be hit by an errant "torpedo"

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 5:53 pm

phil wrote:> let me assure you she's forgotten more abou the JOTS than
> you people know.

That's _not_ reassuring. :->

> The problem therefore isn't lighting but the sad fact that some
> citizens of Black Rock City are inherantly dishonest.

I recall raising a similar issue about defacing the public art on the playa and being taken to task for not encouraging creativity, repurposing, and destruction. It's Burning Man, I was reminded.

Someone tagged some of my property here.
Besides facing multiple felony counts when they are found, I have been using their very recognizable tag to deface gang graffiti.
Perhaps they will object?

On lighting-
I think that lighting the outline with a flood might be more effective even with very low light levels.
A string of lights would be my second choice.
A blinking light needs to be color coded.
I would think clear would be the most unusual for a strobe out there.
Yellow seems a bad choice.
Maybe a light with a very fast blink rate?
There are flasher systems for bulbs with a distinct pattern.

If that can't be done, reflective diamond grade strips would work.
I don't know how they could be theftproofed without sticking them on though.
Maybe if they could be bolted on?
If not, then bolting them to as a rail sunk in the ground would make them not worth the trouble to take.

Anyone considering this, take note that they come in horizontal or vertical orientations.
They do come in colors, so blue could be used for color coding perhaps?
There is a fluorescent orange also which works in daylight and dust storms.
White is brightest.
A good headlamp works at some distance with this material.

Post by **trilobyte** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 11:40 pm

Ugh... floods look awful, look at any streetlight or parking lot in North America - sad to think that people would want that out on the playa (especially illuminating porta-potties). People can find Medical tents without floods, people can find center camp without floods, why should potties get lamer-than-thou treatment?

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 12:06 am

I'm talking about the equivalent of 5 watts of incandescent for each pottie, say a 13 watt fluorescent for a bank.
You could go out and decorate them so they look better.
Many camps do that.

Someone could come up with a burny symbol to light up instead.

As far as the med tents go, I got lost three times in the dust storm trying to get to the tent.
And I was about a hundred feet away.
The ambulance had already gone out, but we needed to be sure.

And there is no excuse for street lights that are unpleasant.
They could all be works of art.

http://www.holophane.com/hlp_library/ca ... llmary.asp

capjbadger · Post by **capjbadger** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 12:39 am

trilobyte wrote:Ugh... floods look awful, look at any streetlight or parking lot in North America - sad to think that people would want that out on the playa (especially illuminating porta-potties). People can find Medical tents without floods, people can find center camp without floods, why should potties get lamer-than-thou treatment?

No floods at center camp? Funny, seemed pretty bright to me...

There we go... Giant flags (blue house emblem?) lit by floods, a la center camp!

Badger

Post by **trilobyte** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 1:06 am

I recall floods hitting the flags on center camp, but not the whole area. I could be wrong - I honestly don't spend much time over there at night other than when I'm ducking into Spike's.

Sorry to hear you had a hard time locating a med tent - to me that particular blue glow has always stood way out. Of course, things are always different when you're in the middle of a particular emergency... Porto's seem like a much lower level emergency... and the idea of lighting up a bank of generic JOTS units at different locations on the open playa seems disheartening. I mean, while we're at it, why don't we add those amber-glow streetlights all throughout the city?

I'm of the opinion that the people who piss and shit on the open playa will continue to do so, no matter how much time, expense, and energy is spent on illumination of the potties. Conscientious burners will always take the time and make the effort to find the porto's, whether they're on the open playa or in the middle of the city.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 2:42 am

The med blue is pretty good if you can see it.
I knew the roads and the location and I still can't work out that nothing was where I thought it was coming and going.
It is one thing to know about desert weather and another to find your way in it.

I think those fixtures at center camp are one kilowatt each.

Ribbons and pennons are great for attracting attention in the daytime, anywhere there is a wind. Great markers to locate a camp rather than arrows.

I have seen potties so well disguised I had to ask what they were.
One was right on the street too.

Teo del Fuego · Post by **Teo del Fuego** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:21 am

the lights were a little hard to see, but I'd rather not have spotlights shining on the portapotties as that would not be a real esthetic nighttime visual. It didnt take long to learn to look for the two colors. It worked for me.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:28 am

It only needs to be bright enough to be barely visible.
They should blend into the background if you aren't actively looking for them.
Visiblity testing with aircraft indicates shapes are recognized at much lower light levels than very bright point lights.
Perhaps a combination?

thirt33n · Post by **thirt33n** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:42 am

i'm with tril. floods suck.
unless you're illuminating a flag with this or some identifiable logo.

thirt33n wrote:...so much creativity. there should be large, huge illuminated these

motskyroonmatick · Post by **motskyroonmatick** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 6:09 pm

I was able to find the beaconed potties very easily at night until thursday night. The numerous Mutant Vehicle lights made it nearly impossible to find the lights after that. I usually just headed for a dark spot like a shadow or break in the lights and I nearly always found the potty bank quickly. If anything I'd just add one more beacon a different color and make it easier to recognize from the pattern. I like the potties but definitely don't want to see a restroom sign.

thirt33n · Post by **thirt33n** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 6:37 pm

yeah. i hear ya.
a large illuminated 'something' that is code for restroom would help those who had trouble finding them. i also had no trouble.

Post by **mdmf007** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:28 pm

Some sort of day shape is easy enough, but at night, you are definately right a blinky or rotating light just blends in.

A laser pointed straight up is cheap enough, and at night there is planty of dust to reflect the light.

just an idea.

motskyroonmatick · Post by **motskyroonmatick** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:13 pm

Laser. Not bad. might even be able to wire a low power but sufficient one on to one of those solar landscape lights.

capjbadger · Post by **capjbadger** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:36 pm

Lasers pointed up are hard to tell how far away they are. I still think a flag with a spotlight on it would be best.

Badger

Captain Goddammit · Post by **Captain Goddammit** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:34 am

motskyroonmatick wrote:I was able to find the beaconed potties very easily at night until thursday night. The numerous Mutant Vehicle lights made it nearly impossible to find the lights after that. I usually just headed for a dark spot like a shadow or break in the lights and I nearly always found the potty bank quickly. If anything I'd just add one more beacon a different color and make it easier to recognize from the pattern. I like the potties but definitely don't want to see a restroom sign.

I think you're onto something - the potties are conspicuous by being UNLIT!
The DMV is getting tougher about mutant vehicle lighting, they demand more. Not lighting the potties hides the ugliest part of BRC, and now that you mention it, that was exactly how I found them at night too, looked for the dark spot.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:59 am

It's easy enough to wander around on wheels until you find something.
It's much harder if you're on foot or a bike.