Question on generators, inverters

alt12 · Post by **alt12** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:20 am

We currently use a Honda eu1000i generator to power our camp but are going to have to upgrade our generating capacity to support our camp. One of the benefits of the honda is its inverter which supposedly smoothes out the power stream and keeps spikes to a mimumum. We will probably be buying a larger cheaper generator without this nifty feature. My question is, can power spikes be managed with something like an off-the-shelf $30 surge protector or do we need to invest in some specialized hardware? Our generator power amplified speakers, and djing laptops in addition to lights and the standard things.... obviously we don't want to fry our hardware....Thanks,
alx

Marscrumbs · Post by **Marscrumbs** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:44 am

It is not just voltage spikes, but the quality of the wave form. Good AC from the wall has a nice sinewave shape. Most cheap generators will have a saw shape wave or a step shape wave. That is good for lights and some motors but is horrible on electronics. I say dedicate your honda1000si to your good stuff and use the fat generator for lighting your camp.

Token · Post by **Token** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:09 am

Or you can get another Honda EU2000/3000 or few and hook them all together to make one big generator.

I bring two EU2000 and one EU1000, then hook them together to run the AC and microwave in the trailer.

Post by **mdmf007** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:03 pm

A UPS - or Uniteruptable Power Supply does a fine job of flattening spikes, and providing for reliable smooth power out the other side. They lose some power in the form of AC - DC, and back to AC conversion, but not much.

alt12 · Post by **alt12** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:14 pm

well we can't afford another Honda EU series generator currently (they're mad expensive) but is this power fluctation problem that big of a deal? Has anyone had their computer or other expensive electronic equipment destroyed by poor-quality power output from a geneator? This is what I'd really like to know. And couldn't a UPS or a even just a surge protector protect the equipment? I just can't tell how serious this issue is. Its really tough to tell. Lots of people say its too risky for laptops and such but I also hear people saying they use these shitty generators on field research expeditions and such without problem.....

Post by **mdmf007** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:19 pm

If its a laptop - your fine. Your charger controls it already. A spike to a desktop though can smoke the power supply inside, or make it past the power supply to your mother board.

I wouldnt worry about a laptop though I have used my laptop on generators for years in the field, some nice ones, and some shitty cobbled together contraptions - all without incident on a laptop.

Ninth Path · Post by **Ninth Path** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 2:07 pm

Keep in mind that most anything NOT Honda will burn through A LOT more gas (up to 4x) and be a lot louder. Learned this the hard way.

Not sure if it's an option, but lots of Honda distributors offer 0% financing for a year.

Token · Post by **Token** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 5:41 pm

How much do the powered speakers cost? This looks like the only item that would suffer that you listed. If they cost less than the difference in price between another Honda and the stank ell-cheapo, and you are willing to piss off all your neighbors with that loud cheap generator, go for it.

No, a cheap power strip WILL NOT save your stuff.

The type of equipment used for stabilizing and cleaning dirty power usually costs way more than the difference in price between a Honda generator and that loud ass obnoxious cheap thing you plan to get.

The bottom line is that you get what you pay for.

BTW, the cheap generator thing is going to burn out by Wednesday anyway and you will find out that you can run the whole camp off of the EU1000 in the first place.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:07 pm

Some equipment has better protection built in too.
I think it depends on a lot of factors.
But yes, damage occurs.
Mostly, stuff just won't work right.

Get the best protection you can.
The ups is a great idea.
There is a big high end audio system that uses batteries.

Zero ac noise and ripple in the system.
Fast response.

Captain Goddammit · Post by **Captain Goddammit** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:00 pm

I have tons of experience with all sorts of portable generators. I've had Robins, Hondas, Onans, lots of others. 1000 watts to 12000 watts.
I don't know if you're gonna listen, but... DON'T BRING ONE OF THOSE SHITTY CHEAP GENERATORS!
Start looking on Craigslist for a used Honda EU 2000, or even just another EU 1000. Those are available used just as cheap as a new FUCKING LOUD shitty one.
You can hook the two together and get enough watts to run your stuff.

The cheap shitty ones will power your stuff just fine, but will piss off everyone around, including yourself.
The cheapo sets run at 3600 RPM all the time (that's how they maintain a 60Hz cycle) and sound like a lawnmower.
The Hondas make their 60Hz AC electronically, and throttle down when not under full load. They use a LOT less gas!

You aren't gonna effectively baffle the noise radiated by a cheap set. I've welded on car and motorcycle mufflers, I've run the exhaust into a barrel of water, put plywood around them... they still suck.

They aren't a bargain in dollars-per-watt because they produce zero watts of useable power when you can't stand to listen to them run!

Yeah, the quiet ones are expensive, but like I said, look around for a used one. A used Honda is better than a new Generac or whatever.

I know lots of people who have brought cheapo loud sets and didn't run them because of how annoying they were. I've brought loud Hondas (EM-series rather than EU-series) and had the neighbors pissed off.

The RV I'm coming in this year has an built-in Onan, but I'm gonna run it on a pair of EU 2000s anyway because of sound and fuel economy.

You can easily hook a couple of Hondas to a larger external fuel tank for extended run time and no inevitable fuel spills every time you gas up by following my instructions here: Honda External Tank

MozyBonz · Post by **MozyBonz** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:33 pm

Captain Goddammit wrote:I have tons of experience with all sorts of portable generators. I've had Robins, Hondas, Onans, lots of others. 1000 watts to 12000 watts.
I don't know if you're gonna listen, but... DON'T BRING ONE OF THOSE SHITTY CHEAP GENERATORS!
Start looking on Craigslist for a used Honda EU 2000, or even just another EU 1000. Those are available used just as cheap as a new FUCKING LOUD shitty one.
You can hook the two together and get enough watts to run your stuff.

The cheap shitty ones will power your stuff just fine, but will piss off everyone around, including yourself.
The cheapo sets run at 3600 RPM all the time (that's how they maintain a 60Hz cycle) and sound like a lawnmower.
The Hondas make their 60Hz AC electronically, and throttle down when not under full load. They use a LOT less gas!

You aren't gonna effectively baffle the noise radiated by a cheap set. I've welded on car and motorcycle mufflers, I've run the exhaust into a barrel of water, put plywood around them... they still suck.

They aren't a bargain in dollars-per-watt because they produce zero watts of useable power when you can't stand to listen to them run!

Yeah, the quiet ones are expensive, but like I said, look around for a used one. A used Honda is better than a new Generac or whatever.

I know lots of people who have brought cheapo loud sets and didn't run them because of how annoying they were. I've brought loud Hondas (EM-series rather than EU-series) and had the neighbors pissed off.

The RV I'm coming in this year has an built-in Onan, but I'm gonna run it on a pair of EU 2000s anyway because of sound and fuel economy.

You can easily hook a couple of Hondas to a larger external fuel tank for extended run time and no inevitable fuel spills every time you gas up by following my instructions here: Honda External Tank

I hear you. I have decided to go with out until I can go quite.
I am using solar for a Lot my power usage this year.

Not that time trying to go more green but because I am seeing lots of options coming out in solar lighting. LED lights got to love them.

Kinetik V · Post by **Kinetik V** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:54 pm

Mozy, you're making the right call in skipping the cheap generator. I love my Honda eu2000i....it's one of the few products I've bought that year after year now has NOT ONCE FAILED me. It's been smacked by a 4 inch tree limb, beat up by 1 3/4 inch hail, it's been encased in a full inch of solid ice when it was left out during an ice storm...and it kept right on running. Also the power is clean enough to run a laser printer, or even the most finicky electronics. In short...you won't regret the wait, nor the investment.

I would salso uggest that if you buy a Honda that you get with the Captain and check out his modifications to allow for extended runtimes with larger gas tanks. I've had a unit running under full load using Mobil 1 synthetic oil for 11 straight days without a single glitch.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 1:45 am

http://www.fischerpanda.com/
quiet

If you go over 3 watt LEDs, go with fluorescent.
If you need help finding 12 volt let me know.

alt12 · Post by **alt12** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 6:57 pm

thanks to all for your advice/suggestions....i've heard similar feedback re: the cheap generators...but ahh! The Hondas are so fucking expensive! And I've been checking on craigslists for them throughout the year and they go quickly....Might be able to buy a 1000 and link them up....Cap'n thanks for the advice on the fuel tank plans...will check that out...

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 7:02 pm

Are the older Onans that bad compared to the Hondas?
I would have thought an older high quality unit to be a good choice.

EspressoDude · Post by **EspressoDude** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 7:35 pm

Most older generators are 2 pole (3600 rpm) or 4 pole (1800 rpm) synchronous AC machines and by nature of the pole shape and rpm's create almost pure sine wave power at 60hz. Huge power company generators run at lower rpm and have many poles.

Most Onan generators are heavy, not very quiet and are often used as back-up power at stores and movie theaters. They are designed to run a long time. Because of their weight and large rotating mass, they do pretty well at maintaining frequency and voltage with load changes. Most Onan RV generators do 1000 - 2000 hours before major service (think how far your car goes in 1000 hours driving)

Cheap generators are light weight synchronous AC machines that do a poor job of load regulation due mostly to low rotating mass. Thin cylinder walls of low cost motors transmit a lot of noise even if the exhaust is well muffled.

The Honda EU machines are actually DC generators with an AC inverter that does a very good job of creating a good sine wave and voltage regulation because of the solid state circuitry. Because they are actually DC generators, they are relatively easy to parallel and synchronize the sine waves of the two generators electronically. This is quite difficult to do with AC synchronous machines as the sine waves must be matched exactly with a synchroscope before closing the paralleling contactor. Horrendous fires have been caused by doing this incorrectly (think short circuit with twice the generated voltage applied)

Like everything else, you get what you pay for

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 7:46 pm

I've used an Onan that was very quiet.

What do you think of the asynchronous Fischer-Panda?
I've also looked at the diesel tri-pack by ThermoKing with direct drive air conditioning.
I can't believe no one has ever done that before.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 7:57 pm

I just found an old Kohler, propane powered 4Kw for 30 bucks......and, it works and is pretty darn quiet........I just had to put the muffler on, install a battery and propane tank, and, .....it works.!!
I'm very excited, propane is not nearly so stinky, fuel or exhaust, and, since I can fill my own bottles, is about 2 bucks per gallon.........

Does anyone have knowledge related to these old machines? mine is from the late '60's........

Ygmir.

Zona_the_stona · Post by **Zona_the_stona** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 8:12 pm

We ended up renting the Honda EU2000 this year for BM. Came out to be about $370.

I will be looking for a used one to buy in the future.. it would definitely pay for iteself in a few trips. I've spent the last 4 years going with old stinky construction site generators and this is the year we switch to the Honda.

How much gas should I expect to use for music, lights, fans & maybe a blender. If we were running it say,.. 6-10 hours a day for 7 days ?

should 10 gallons cover it? 20?

ibdave · Post by **ibdave** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 8:49 pm

Zona_the_stona wrote:
How much gas should I expect to use for music, lights, fans & maybe a blender. If we were running it say,.. 6-10 hours a day for 7 days ?

should 10 gallons cover it? 20?

I can run mine about 10 hours at Half load and that's about 1 gal a gas.

At min load 13 hours/gal gas..

EspressoDude · Post by **EspressoDude** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 9:01 pm

rough rule of thumb:

1/2 pound of fuel per horsepower hour(slightly less for diesel, more for gas)

770 watt/hp

6 pounds/ gallon

2000 watts takes about 3 hp; which would be 1.5 pounds per hour; or 4 hours per gallon at full load.

Honda sez up to 15 hours per gallon ( no load)

MozyBonz · Post by **MozyBonz** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 9:06 pm

Captain Goddammit · Post by **Captain Goddammit** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 9:44 pm

You do have to be quick to snag a used Honda EU1000 or 2000. I've bought very nice EU1000s for $400. One of my 2000s was a second-hand buy from Craigslist for $800. That isn't much more than a crappy set, and it's a hell of a lot lighter and it uses a lot less gas and it's a lot quieter.

In my experience, a pair of 1000s will hold a bigger load than a single 2000.
Twins are also nice because they tend to run at lower RPM; I often have my pair of 2000s running when one of them would hold the load just because it's more pleasant to hear two idling than one throttled up.

I've also found through practice that the EU1000, EU2000 and EU3000 can all be mixed and matched when hooking together parallel. You can link your 1000 to a 2000 and load them up, and the 1000 doesn't just overload right away like I expected.

You don't need to throw your money away on Honda's ridiculously overpriced parallel operation cables. All you do is connect the power output of each set directly together (and that's all Honda's cables do). You can make a nice junction box or go as simple as an extension cord with a male plug at each end.
The only thing you need to keep in mind when running a connected pair (actually you can daisy-chain as many as you like) is always connect them FIRST, THEN start the motors.
The similar Yamaha is nice too, but lacks the parallel-connectivity capability of the Honda, and you've already got one Honda.

alt12 · Post by **alt12** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:25 pm

So what about these KIPOR nock-offs of the Hondas 1000 and 2000s? I'm looking at the KIPOR Digital KGE1000Ti and the 2000Ti and they claim to be pretty much the same thing for a few hundred $ less...Can I get away with this...Will it really be that much noiser? Its offly tempting...

Captain Goddammit · Post by **Captain Goddammit** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:10 pm

DON'T DO IT!
They are cheap-ass Chinese (I believe) knock-offs that are NOT the same quality or quietness. Parts availability probably sucks as bad as with all the other cheap knock-off stuff.

They are cheaper up front, but you'll be sorry.

EspressoDude · Post by **EspressoDude** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:29 pm

alt12 wrote:So what about these KIPOR nock-offs of the Hondas 1000 and 2000s? I'm looking at the KIPOR Digital KGE1000Ti and the 2000Ti and they claim to be pretty much the same thing for a few hundred $ less...Can I get away with this...Will it really be that much noiser? Its offly tempting...

their engine nock sounds offly like chink - chink - chink, not like good nipponese ping - ping

Marscrumbs · Post by **Marscrumbs** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:28 am

I own a yamahi 900. It's Blue colored vs. the Red Honda 1000 and about the same price and supposedly a few decible lower at idle. It's been plenty enough for my survival camplights decorations, battery recharges including the auto.

However since then I found a nice Honda knockoff that runs on either gas, LPG or propane. Dealer is also a user selling them as a sideline to their event centered gokart business.

http://familygokarts.com/main.php?htmlPage=xr2500l

capjbadger · Post by **capjbadger** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:33 pm

Marscrumbs wrote:I own a yamahi 900. It's Blue colored vs. the Red Honda 1000 and about the same price and supposedly a few decible lower at idle. It's been plenty enough for my survival camplights decorations, battery recharges including the auto.

However since then I found a nice Honda knockoff that runs on either gas, LPG or propane. Dealer is also a user selling them as a sideline to their event centered gokart business.

http://familygokarts.com/main.php?htmlPage=xr2500l

What's people's take on these? They look good to me, but I'm not up on generators. I can get a Honda EU 2000i for $800, or one of these for $500 less.

Hard for me to not look hard at 500 bucks...

Badger

capjbadger · Post by **capjbadger** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:17 pm

*poke poke* Anyone?

Badger

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:15 pm

I don't know anything about these and I don't like buying anything chinese or japanese actually.
But I know someone using chinese diesel generators and they are quite happy.
He has a spare one if anyone wants one.

A friend of mine uses heavy metal tools and for some purposes they are happier with certain chinese products over anything else including Bosch, Makita and so on.
I think they buy from grizzly.
They use tools to destruction and have not used Fein, in this case.
Your use may vary.

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