Has someone NOT USED rebar and had success?

mk-ultra · Post by **mk-ultra** » Sat Aug 02, 2008 11:27 pm

12.5" military stakes are great. These are the V-shaped ones and are made of 1/8" thick metal. They look like:

http://www.majorsurplus.com/Assets/imag ... 879401.jpg I have no idea whether or not this is a reputable source for them -- link provided so you can tell what they look like only. Their price seems pretty good at about $1 a stake though. My local surplus store sells them at about $1.50 a pop.

For the same length, V-shaped stakes handle a hell of a lot more load than round rebar... as they should, given the extra surface area they present against the load.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned in this thread is how to actually *use* your stakes -- whatever their length or design.

Never simply drive your stakes vertically into the ground.

Point the open-end of the "V" toward the load you're trying to absorb... and then drive the stake into the ground at a 45-degree angle (or whatever angle puts the load perpendicular to the stake), with the stake leaning away from the load.

If the stake is driven in vertically -- you'll lose about 50% of its potential effectiveness. Wind loads tend to pull "up" on a stake... not just perpendicular to it. By angling the stake properly, you can get away with using a *much* smaller one.

Driving your stakes into the ground at the proper angle and facing the right direction (if using a V-shaped one) makes a *huge* difference.

Unless you're dealing with massive loads -- the talk on here about using 3' long rebar is overkill. Use 2' rebar (with a "candy cane" end -- giving you about 12-15 inches of actual anchor)... or buy the great 12.5" military stakes and save yourself the hassle of having to bend rebar into candy canes.

Drive your stakes properly, and use something like (cheap but effective) 550 lb. test parachute cord... and you can secure damn near anything without heavy rebar and massive ropes.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Sun Aug 03, 2008 12:13 pm

Agree, sort of, but nobody pounds stakes at angles less than 90 degrees wrt the load, so there's always an upward component of pullout force wrt the orientation of the stake. Stakes hold in the playa via a combination of cohesion, friction, and weight of soil overlying, so at whatever angle you pound the stake, if you figure the upper six inches of playa is too crumbly to support anything, and the strength of the soil beneath increases with depth, the deeper you pound stakes the better -- ie, too steep an angle is not an automatic advantage, IMO.

Also, because most rebar is low grade steel (less stiff than high grade steel), and people usually use only 3/8 or 1/2 bar for stakes at Burning Man & leave too much sticking up where they tie on, your typical rebar stake may tend to bend and wiggle out if wind is whipping your structure around. So, if you use skinny rebar, that's a major reason to put a J-bend in the top -- to prevent wiggling in the wind -- as long as you pound the short end into firm ground. Dig a little hole first with a claw hammer, angle the stake slightly, pound it below the surface, and it should be okay for most small to medium sized tents & such.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Sun Aug 03, 2008 2:17 pm

The military stakes I have referred to are 4-sided or X shaped french military style.
I think they grip much better without crumbling the soil on the playa.
Once the dirt breaks up, the grip is gone.
I think it's similar to using too large a nail in wood and crushing the fiber=less grip.

There are also triple edged stakes.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Sun Aug 03, 2008 2:24 pm

I'd think if they were French military style, they'd give up first thing............

TomServo · Post by **TomServo** » Sun Aug 03, 2008 3:39 pm

gyre wrote:The military stakes I have referred to are 4-sided or X shaped french military style.
I think they grip much better without crumbling the soil on the playa.
Once the dirt breaks up, the grip is gone.
I think it's similar to using too large a nail in wood and crushing the fiber=less grip.

There are also triple edged stakes.

I seem to remember, once you go beyond the first few inches, the soil becomes clay-like. As long as you drive the stake deep, don't think it matters what shape it is. Its the top part that Im worried about. Duct tape foam padding to the tops..or drive that stake right up the ass of a stuffed toy..Elmo?

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:19 am

What do you think of these?
May be too short for the playa, but an interesting approach.
They are designed to go flush.
http://www.deltagroundanchors.co.uk/hom ... t_Ordering

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:00 am

Looks like they're designed to move toward the tent & slack off as you pound them in.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:13 am

That could be an issue.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:19 am

Might work fine on turf or semi-firm ground if you angle them with the spike upright as you drive them in, but the playa this year & in many years has up to six inches or so of loose dust on top.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:23 am

I think they need to be longer for the playa, but i thought the design was interesting.
I like the flush design too.

taximark · Post by **taximark** » Sun Aug 17, 2008 8:29 pm

I'm still confused as hell as what and how im going to anchor my tent with.
Im not even sure if the holes in the latchs on my tent will fit a giant stake or rebar. Im seriously thinking about taking just a shitload of EXTRA water just to put in the corners as it seems to be the simplist option, as i dont want to bring a hammer, nor do i want peices of rebar sticking out of the ground period! i have some smaller metal stakes, but from all the talk ive been hearing about anchoring tents, doesnt sound like it'll do the job.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Sun Aug 17, 2008 9:11 pm

If your still having trouble securing your tent/shelter..

please come by my camp and i will gladly help you.. i camp along the 8:30 street and I-J-K.. We always have a 18 inch hi "orange" plastic (trash) fence around the camp

you will need some type of pegs/stakes and a bunch of rope.. from there i can help you..

Dome tents hold up well in the wind if staked down right..

I and my camp mate have been doing extrem camping for any years..
If you need other or more tie down supplies, a camp near yours will pich in and help..

joemomma · Post by **joemomma** » Sun Aug 17, 2008 9:30 pm

Quesiton, to all..... I have a shade sail, triangle 11x11x11, I want to set it up @ 6-8 feet off the ground, what do you recommend for poles to support each corner, and what type of rope? I currently have four 24 inch concrete stakes and 4 36 inch.....
was wondering if those aluminum or fiberglass poles sold at twin city will work...normally used to support camo netting.....
thanks....

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:18 pm

Sure, surplus sectional tent poles should work fine.

One triangle isn't much shade, might want to double it.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 8:54 pm

Has anyone ever used an anchor such as this on the playa:

http://www.creativeshelters.com/Canopy- ... nchor.aspx

If so, what were your results?

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 9:08 pm

Looks about the same as pounding two concrete stakes crosswise, or three or four stakes thru a piece of plywood.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 9:10 pm

I used the auger type anchors I asked about earlier in this thread.
Report:
they were fabulous!!
I used a 2' piece of pipe through the eye in the top, and, just leaned my body weight on it while turning in a "t" configuration.
At first, it was just chewing up the playa, but after about 6" or so, it started to grab and screw itself in.......I twisted until the steel started to twist on the shank, using the 2' bar for full leverage.
It only sank about a foot or so, total.
and, it held very well. several of us tried to pull it out, to no avail.
They held fine through Saturdays wind/dust.
and, removal was a breeze, just take the pipe and unscrew it.......

anyway,

that's my experience......

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 9:10 pm

The tensioning feature is cool if it works.

justfred · Post by **justfred** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 10:21 pm

Most (I'd say ALL) personal tents will hold down just fine with 10"-12" metal nails, about 3/8" thick, commonly known as "tent stakes". (not the tiny flimsy bendy ones that come with the tent, or yellow plastic ones either!) I prefer the ones with a loop at the top, they're easier to get out. I use these in six places around the tent and have never had an issue with tent movement.

For popups I use tent stakes on each corner, then tie-down straps to military stakes on each corner. Held up all week out in the open without budging. Previously mentioned angled insertion on the tie-down stakes.

For shade structures I use a larger military stake - it's w-shaped, about 3" wide and 12" long, with a snap hook at the top. Easy enough to remove if you use leverage properly

In all cases, the stakes are pounded ALL THE WAY INTO THE GROUND. The only thing that rebar sticking out of the ground is good for is tearing the skin from shins.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 10:29 pm

I used a Springbar tent this year and bought the longer "sand stakes" and made the mistake of pounding them nearly all the way in. I couldn't hardly get the damned things back out. The aluminum would deform as I attempted to pry them out. Next year it will be my standard rebar with enough sticking out to get a puller on it. We use a T-stake puller to extract the rebar and it goes pretty well. We did have some smooth stakes this year that were also a bitch to get out because there was nothing for the puller to grip on.

cphoenix · Post by **cphoenix** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 1:12 am

Use a long strap (the long half of a tie-down strap works well). Fasten one end to the rebar. (You can use a lark's head knot if the rebar isn't looped at the top.)

Run the strap high on the inside of your leg (e.g. your right leg), then wrap it around your (e.g. right) thigh, run it behind you low on your butt, and grab the free end (e.g. with your left hand). Now squat, pull out the slack, make sure the strap is pulling exactly in line with the rebar, and stand up.

A reasonably strong person can pull out 2 feet of rebar hammered all the way into the ground... in about 15 seconds... with a tool (the strap) that you can carry in a pocket. And this method uses only your legs, not your back or arms... and women have extra-strong legs.

If the rebar is insanely deep or is twisted underground, have a friend with vice grips twist it *while* you pull - or squat deeply and twist the vice grips yourself. This is far faster than vice grips alone.

I demo'd this to a lot of people - I must have pulled 100 rebars in a few hours - and wasn't even tired at the end. At one point I joined a rebar-pulling competition, working on 3' rebars that were too thin, so they'd corkscrewed underground as they were pounded in. Our two-man team, using my strap and his pliers (not even vice grips), pulled seven rebars in the time it took the other team, three people plus a power-drill auger, to pull one.

This also works great on concrete stakes and those flat 1/4 by 2 inch stakes, though you may have to slip something through one of the holes to keep the knot on the stake.
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unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:44 am

I used plastic 6 inch stkes to hold a 6X8 carport type structure.. Had good pull to get them out of the ground at weeks end..

Saved & dryed the limbs from the apple tree trim this year.. Going wiht the green movement.. I will cut 9 inch stakes.. binding/whiping them near the top will stop from spliting when driving into the ground.. might splice a cotton loop onto the stakes for easy tie off from the tent lines.. Also want to replace the metal poles of my shelter with these limbs.. This will show up on another thread..

CapSmashy · Post by **CapSmashy** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 9:31 am

I used some big ass orange ground stakes I found at Home Depot this year to secure my carport. 16" long with 4 tapering fins down the length with a 2 inch diameter head for smacking with a sledge that had a tie through hole.

Worked like a champ. I'm going back and buying more.

Found them in the lawn and garden section of the store.

We had part of the dune planet surface in our village this year and the 12" military stakes were not reliable under tension.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 11:15 am

"I used some big ass orange ground stakes I found at Home Depot this year"

Those have worked well with me in the past, too. I don't use them anymore but I carry a few just in case I need an emergency spare or someone else needs a good stake. We use rebar with the Lite-Brite rebar driver (modified demolition hammer) and cover the ends with pieces of swimming pool noodle cut into short lengths.

d6 · Post by d6 » Sun Sep 07, 2008 12:38 pm

i always use 2-4 ft concrete stakes, and pull them out w/ vice grips. tennis ball covers, or cut plastic bottles over the ends work fine.

d6,
argh-o-naut

Intubater69 · Post by **Intubater69** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 1:10 pm

cphoenix wrote:Use a long strap (the long half of a tie-down strap works well). Fasten one end to the rebar. (You can use a lark's head knot if the rebar isn't looped at the top.)

Run the strap high on the inside of your leg (e.g. your right leg), then wrap it around your (e.g. right) thigh, run it behind you low on your butt, and grab the free end (e.g. with your left hand). Now squat, pull out the slack, make sure the strap is pulling exactly in line with the rebar, and stand up.

A reasonably strong person can pull out 2 feet of rebar hammered all the way into the ground... in about 15 seconds... with a tool (the strap) that you can carry in a pocket. And this method uses only your legs, not your back or arms... and women have extra-strong legs.

If the rebar is insanely deep or is twisted underground, have a friend with vice grips twist it *while* you pull - or squat deeply and twist the vice grips yourself. This is far faster than vice grips alone.

I demo'd this to a lot of people - I must have pulled 100 rebars in a few hours - and wasn't even tired at the end. At one point I joined a rebar-pulling competition, working on 3' rebars that were too thin, so they'd corkscrewed underground as they were pounded in. Our two-man team, using my strap and his pliers (not even vice grips), pulled seven rebars in the time it took the other team, three people plus a power-drill auger, to pull one.

This also works great on concrete stakes and those flat 1/4 by 2 inch stakes, though you may have to slip something through one of the holes to keep the knot on the stake.
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A guy in kidsville showed me this trick. worked great on rebar that was vertical, not so easy on the angled pieces but they came out fine with vice grips. I had 2 quest pop-up shelters that held up fine. Used 3/8 rebar thru the footpads, topped with 3/4 emt pipe duct taped to the legs to add strength. drove in 4 foot rebar alongside that and duct taped all together. Secured one side to my truck, the others to rebar. Used old halyards off my sailboat and went over the top of each shelter (used 2, with my tent under one) No problems at all. I also had stakes from Hogan [url]http://www.hogantentstakes.com/[url] the hooked ones 18" which were for the tent fly but not used. I will by more of them and replace the rebar i used to guy to next year.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 1:18 pm

I plan on gifting my past attempts of shelter tie downs.. Along with a bunch of camp gear..

I'm go w/wood frame and stakes..Waxed cotten canvas and waxed cotten rope. Same for over the van..Hope to make a custom fit bag.. This will be lined w/Goodwill blankets.. Might go space age and sndwich in a space blanket between the canvas and blankets..

I want to put up a little theme camp called "KNotts So Good" To show and help others set up for the playa weathers..

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 1:46 pm

"Waxed cotten canvas and waxed cotten rope."

Sounds awesome but you better not let any embers from the burn barrel touch it or you could find yourself waking up inside a rather spectacular fire. It would be somewhat inspirational, though, according to Pryor.

cphoenix · Post by **cphoenix** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:06 pm

Intubater69 wrote: A guy in kidsville showed me this trick. worked great on rebar that was vertical, not so easy on the angled pieces but they came out fine with vice grips. I had 2 quest pop-up shelters that held up fine. Used 3/8 rebar thru the footpads, topped with 3/4 emt pipe duct taped to the legs to add strength. drove in 4 foot rebar alongside that and duct taped all together. Secured one side to my truck, the others to rebar. Used old halyards off my sailboat and went over the top of each shelter (used 2, with my tent under one) No problems at all. I also had stakes from Hogan [url]http://www.hogantentstakes.com/[url] the hooked ones 18" which were for the tent fly but not used. I will by more of them and replace the rebar i used to guy to next year.

Angled rebar up to 45 degrees is as easy as vertical rebar. Just plant a foot on the side the rebar is pointing to, and wrap the strap around that thigh. That lets you pull sideways. If you pull exactly in line with the rebar, it'll come out easily.

For even more angled rebar, get a longer strap, attach the middle to the rebar, wrap it around both hips, crossing in back, and hold an end of the strap in each hand. Stand facing the rebar so it's pointing right at your groin, and pull. If it's insanely angled and insanely stuck, you can even dig foot-holds and lean back, letting your body weight (supported by your legs) pull the rebar out. But at this point, vice grips plus pulling is probably easier.

Chris

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:12 pm

geekster wrote:"Waxed cotten canvas and waxed cotten rope."

Sounds awesome but you better not let any embers from the burn barrel touch it or you could find yourself waking up inside a rather spectacular fire. It would be somewhat inspirational, though, according to Pryor.

That is after all what wicks are made of.. Good covered wagon and Clondike tents were made this way..

Has someone NOT USED rebar and had success?

Delta Pegs

shade structure poles

Most tents don't need rebar

Rebar can be easy to pull

Re: Rebar can be easy to pull

Re: Rebar can be easy to pull