Burning Man has jumped the shark

[thirt33n]

...the guy that has a comeback for everything.

of course you have to defend your 'work' by any means necessary.
hey look! i don't capitalize. and i don't use proper grammar. boy, there's a weak spot for ya. get it.

judge

you might has well have beat the dead horse and written a piece on brittney or paris since burning man is so mainstream.

...you do, however, write articles that are aimed at the spoonfed, clueless default world,..so that's where you've gone. stay there thank you.

keep your ears between your hands and you'll continue to creep towards "stubborn old man in his box"

biatch

[capjbadger]

Malcom in the Middle and The Simpsons would beg to differ.

No. No they wouldn't.

The few casual references made on a handful of television shows (even ones where the creative force behind them involve long time Burners) has not really done much to make Burning Man mainstream.

Otherwise, as I mentioned earlier, I would not get the plethora of blank stares when I mention Burning Man to people that have no fucking clue as to what it is. Even people that have heard of it do not know much more about it than its something in the desert somewhere out west.

Agreed. You tell someone you're going to Disneyland, no one asks what it is. Almost everyone asks me what BM is, even out here in "crazy" California.
Judge, when BM fails the "Disneyland Test", then you can say it's mainstream.

I still keep the spirit of the event inside of me, I just don't need to be surrounded by 50,000 frat boy spectators to experience it.

It sounds like you're saying that you're the only participant, and the other 50,000 people are just spectators to your event.

Seems a little cynical.

While I agree for the most part, I'm pretty sure Judge was well within the realm of hyperbole with that bit.

Thrit33n, I know what you're saying, but could you take the high road for once? I mean come on man, that post was like sticking your tongue out and throwing mudballs at passing cars.

Badger

[thirt33n]

Thrit33n, I know what you're saying, but could you take the high road for once? I mean come on man, that post was like sticking your tongue out and throwing mudballs at passing cars.

something about a pot a kettle and black. study my post history if you haven't already. overwhelmingly i am what i am in real life. an opinionated, creative, confrontational, witty, silly, experienced, loving, angry, drunk, excited, apologetic, asshole who's fearless and conflict resolving, do gooding, and a high roader who hops down to the low road from time to time when i feel the need.

i throw mudballs and i have good aim
you still have a few mudstains


if you know what i'm sayin', capjbadger, then take the 'high road' off my back. (that's tongue and cheek) i'm used to buttin' heads with you. almost always like two guys on the same team arguing on the sideline.

as far as my 'low road' posts,...i'm stickin' with'em cuz i don't think they qualify as low road.

maybe the "biatch" part. I'll recant two "biatches" biatch

[CapSmashy]

If you are recanting the "biatch", I will happily reassert it on my own behalf.

[Finnegan]

BM is going to be so much better 4 years ago, when I look back on it!

[TheJudge]

I still keep the spirit of the event inside of me, I just don't need to be surrounded by 50,000 frat boy spectators to experience it.

It sounds like you're saying that you're the only participant, and the other 50,000 people are just spectators to your event.

Seems a little cynical.

Me? A cynic? Perish the thought!

There are not 50,000 frat boys, but the ratio of burners to yahoos has definitely changed.

[TheJudge]

...the guy that has a comeback for everything.

This from the person with over 700 posts in under a year. Should I not continue the discussion? Is it better to just let everyone throw their slings and arrows while I run and hide? Sorry. Not my style.

you might has well have beat the dead horse and written a piece on brittney or paris since burning man is so mainstream.

Don't forget Lindsay. Don't you know that the whole world hangs with baited breath to hear stories and commentary about their worthless asses?

...you do, however, write articles that are aimed at the spoonfed, clueless default world,..so that's where you've gone. stay there thank you.

Again, you illustrate how little you really know and understand me.
You ARE the spoonfed, clueless default world. The playa is only a brief and very temporary vacation from that reality. That utopian fantasyland you hold onto so dearly would quickly devolve into "Lord of the Flies" if it lasted longer than a week. Don't kid yourself into thinking you are not just another lemming.

keep your ears between your hands and you'll continue to creep towards "stubborn old man in his box"

Yeah, and stay off my lawn, while you're at it.

[TheJudge]

If you are recanting the "biatch", I will happily reassert it on my own behalf.

Well then go fuck yourself as well.

[Finnegan]

Blah blah blah. Stay home then. Problem solved!

[thirt33n]

Yeah, and stay off my lawn, while you're at it.

ha ha. now that WAS good. 'bout time.


other than being another journalist with condescending and snobbish tendencies who's been to burningman, the only thing i know about you is that you won't be there.

i just got a lick of humor and that was refreshing. thanks.
you've shown a bit of the other side of you. i like that.

the only representation of a lemming i have is the pilgramage. but a true lemming does not head over the cliff way ahead of the others, by himself so i guess you missed on that one.
i know what you mean though.

enjoy the labor day internet photojournalist bbq.

...and goodluck with your life and finding excitement and happiness.

crux


pilgrimage (edit)

[Marscrumbs]

Meanwhile they are rejecting mutant vehicles like edsels...

I'm in almost one hundred percent agreement with this blogger, except I was stupid enough to buy a high price ticket anyways as I still like the black rock desert, and I'll have fun even thuugh the event is not what I remember or I like it to be... not because of me not trying I say. Hey everybody follow me and maybe next year will be better.

Burn the man three times this year!!! Just wake me up this time before you do it.

[thirt33n]

You ARE the spoonfed, clueless default world. The playa is only a brief and very temporary vacation from that reality.

AAAAAHHHHHHHHH HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHHAAHHAHHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAa


look who's blindly throwing clueless analysis now.

...you have no idea man.
what, you think i'm a 9 to 5er with a collared shirt who lives in the suburbs and has a kid or two? (nothing wrong with that )

'the judge" makes a big misstep.

capjbadger, my friend in eplaya headbutting, this guy IS the low road. maybe not in the past, but now he is.

[capjbadger]

Thrit33n, I know what you're saying, but could you take the high road for once? I mean come on man, that post was like sticking your tongue out and throwing mudballs at passing cars.

something about a pot a kettle and black. study my post history if you haven't already. overwhelmingly i am what i am in real life. an opinionated, creative, confrontational, witty, silly, experienced, loving, angry, drunk, excited, apologetic, asshole who's fearless and conflict resolving, do gooding, and a high roader who hops down to the low road from time to time when i feel the need.

i throw mudballs and i have good aim
you still have a few mudstains


if you know what i'm sayin', capjbadger, then take the 'high road' off my back. (that's tongue and cheek) i'm used to buttin' heads with you. almost always like two guys on the same team arguing on the sideline.

as far as my 'low road' posts,...i'm stickin' with'em cuz i don't think they qualify as low road.

maybe the "biatch" part. I'll recant two "biatches" biatch

Doh! I meant to add a line about the irony of that comment coming from me of all people. Whoops.
That's what I get for posting from work while distracted. I lose the train of thought.
Amtrak thought = Train of thought derailed. No survivors.

Badger

[CapSmashy]

Well then go fuck yourself as well.

That was much quicker than I expected.

[capjbadger]

You ARE the spoonfed, clueless default world. The playa is only a brief and very temporary vacation from that reality.

AAAAAHHHHHHHHH HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHHAAHHAHHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAa


look who's blindly throwing clueless analysis now.

...you have no idea man.
what, you think i'm a 9 to 5er with a collared shirt who lives in the suburbs and has a kid or two? (nothing wrong with that )

'the judge" makes a big misstep.

capjbadger, my friend in eplaya headbutting, this guy IS the low road. maybe not in the past, but now he is.

Not sure if that was the low road, but it was definately one of the weakest rebuttals I've seen in some time. It was right up there with:
"Uh huh!"
"Nuh uh!"
"Are not!"
"Are too!"

Don't forget Lindsay. Don't you know that the whole world hangs with baited breath to hear stories and commentary about their worthless asses?

What about Hannah Montana? She's the only one that truely matters! To hell with the rest!


When it comes down to it, you get out of any event what you put into it. To hell with anyone else, I'm going to have fun whether you like it or not.
The rest of you may come along if you like.

Badger

[thirt33n]

ha. capjbadger. drinks together soon perhaps?

like our friend Sensei says, "we all need to remember that the most important thing is that I have a good time out there." (or something like that.)


Now let get on our swim trunks! we've got sharks to jump!

[capjbadger]

Of course.

Badger

[transgirl]

I read the article. You just sound burned out. Or like someone said, sounds like you've outgrown burning man. It's always sad to realize you've burned out. But no reason to blame others. You can get burned out from anything; lovers, food, jobs, hobbies, travel routes.
Nothing stays new and exciting forever.
It helps to imagine you've never done something before.
Like you're a virgin again seeing it with fresh eyes...like you just heard of Burning Man a month ago and through a bunch of survival shit in your trunk.


I'm just guessing you're burned out, but that's how I read it.

[This Woman]

I'm always amazed by the defensiveness that these kinds of posts bring. I didn't see anywhere in your article where you attacked anyone (well, maybe Larry Harvey, but that's a stretch), though some clearly feel personally attacked. Why do you suppose that is? How do your feelings threaten them and why is dissent invalid even in this supposed hyper-free space? Maybe it's a built in, herd-animal survivial technique we're still contending with.

I think your original post and subsequent comments are valid and intelligent, and you will be missed at least by two (shoutout, Kinetic).

Transgirl, excellent suggestion for those who might be disillusioned, but are still going. I do that all the time with beloved movies, books, etc., and actually figure out who I am going to be beforehand. Its not just a whole new experience, but a whole new experience AS someone else.

[transgirl]

I heard it's actually a valid Buddhist practice; intentionally pretending that everything is brand new. I do this on travel routes to work. I imagine im in a state I've never been in and don't know what's around the next bend or where the road leads. It's amazing how different the highway and trees look. It's like a meditation kind of.

[thirt33n]

I'm always amazed by the defensiveness that these kinds of posts bring. I didn't see anywhere in your article where you attacked anyone (well, maybe Larry Harvey, but that's a stretch), though some clearly feel personally attacked. Why do you suppose that is?

In my opinion. the original poster displayed a lack of positive tactful responses to the 'thoughts' he had asked for. Instead he came off as hard headed and condescending.

His article was his opinion(although written as fact). people read it and commented. the real fact is that this subject has been so overplayed that most people here are practically dry heaving when another new post comes up with the same subject matter.

all that being said, i think "thejudge" has shown his true colors and that is always to be commended.

the best part about it is those who really follow op-ed articles and movie reviews and such will read his article and believe that burning man is over and being the unadventurous people that they are, will not be interested.
spoonfed by the burned out.
bunrt BM pie. yuk.

yum!

[TheJudge]

I'm just guessing you're burned out, but that's how I read it.

First, thanks for reading the article. Judging by some of the responses I've seen here, it seems like a lot of people forgot that part and just jumpped to a response.

Second, I dont think its burnout, just fed up. I still love the event, I love everything about the desert and the people I hang out with are permanent friends. But the insanity of what the spectacle has turned into; the bureaucracy, the creep of local government influence, the population boom that brings more spectators, and the over-choreographed, superbowl halftime show that the burn itself has turned into has tempered my once doe-eyed passion for the event with an unfortunate tinge of disappointment.

Trying to look at everything as if it was brand new is a good way to never be disappointed by deflatated expectations and I completly agree that this is the best way to approach going out to the event. Especially if this is your third, fourth or 15th visit.

This Woman - its only fair that the majority of responses to my original post would be in the vein of "dont let the gate hit you in the ass on the way out." This was my usual response when I heard veterans leave, who were saying the same things I'm saying now. I never thought I would be on the other end of this argument. Its a basic part of human nature to want to defend something you believe in and I dont fault people for having strong opinions about the event. Even incendiary rebuttals have their place (although I still retain the right to tell em to go fuck themselves).

I still love the event, I just wish it was run a little different.

Thirt33n - Never let it be said that I am not a bull in a china shop when it comes to tactful responses. The article indeed WAS my opinion, but the fact that the subject is overplayed as you've said, should say something about the credibility of the opinion and give some indication that its more than just a lone person's off-base comment. When veterans leave, you have to ask yourself why. Its easy to chalk it up to burnout, but it should be seen more as a barometer. Otherwise nothing will improve.

I dont pretend to think my words are going to change someone's opinion. Especially the people that read the ePlaya. This is just a rant by someone who's been around long enough to see the evolution and wonder about the big picture.

[lurker]

Judge, here's the thing. Burning Man wasn't better....whenever. Okay? It's really that simple.

How do I know? Because there are people who attended before you who made your point about the year YOU first attended. YOUR first year was the year'o'suck for them.

That's not too hard to see, is it?

What's jumped the shark is you, in a way. You've moved on. BRC is no longer 'it' for you. That's fine. That's okay. But understand that it's also personal--that it has no real bearing on the actual event and the realities of all the people for whom Burning Man is still very much 'it'.

Again, why is this so hard for some people to see?

I'm really trying hard to be nice here but some of your reasoning seems so juvenile--'it's gotten too mainstream'. This sounds just like my son, when he was 13, he'd abandon bands he liked and things he liked--not because he no longer enjoyed them, but because people he considered 'too mainstream' were showing an interest in them. Far from being excited that his(admittedly peculiar) tastes were spreading, becoming more easily accessible, he'd run away and seek something 'more alternative', 'more outre'. I kept pointing this out to him until he(thankfully) outgrew it.

So what if BM gets occasional mentions in the media, so what if more people go---doesn't that mean that more people want what BM has to offer?

Isn't that a good thing?

[TheJudge]

You raise a pretty good point. The paradigm shift of 97 was a huge culture shock to those that went to the event in 96. And I am sure that there are quite a few people that felt the event was better when it was back on Baker Beach.

But its about the law of diminishing returns at this point. Maybe not for you or for those whose first year is this year or last years, but it is there. The yahoo ratio is growing. The crime issue is growing, the infrastructure is being strained and there seems to be no end in sight. But these are all just my opinions and I appreciate and respect your own opinion on this.

[Ron]

J....
Again, why is this so hard for some people to see?

....

Because they are inside the change. Just like it doesn't feel like you're on a planet spinning around the sun. Looks like the sun is spinning around us, doesn't it? We're inside the system and it takes special effort to look outside it. And sometimes that isn't even possible.

It's a pattern that repeats itself over and again in human activities. The younger generation is always taking us to hell in a hand-basket, the new music never has the same soul as the older stuff did, and no one really knows how to play the game anymore. And so on. Really it's all about growing up and learning to smell the crap as well as be moved by the flowers that grow in it.

Has the burn changed? Of course it has. Everything changes. But the meaning that gets put on those changes often depends on the viewer more than the changes themselves. I think the burn is *vastly* improved for the limitations on guns, the presence of streets, the restrictions on cars, and the increased number of people.

I can, and do, shoot safely around my home. Being reasonably confident that a car isn't going to drive over your tent in the middle of the night, because you're not on a road, are in a group of other tents, and car use is seriously restricted is a feature, not a bug, IMHO. More folk means both more odds of there being assholes present, but it also means more odds of their being genus present as well. And so on. I find it hard to believe that an event of 500 folk would have the kind of massive and expensive art that the last few year's burns have had nor in the number that we've seen. Consider the Serpent Mother, the waffle house, or the swinging monkeys all as examples of things that are of a scale that I don't think we saw back in 1990 or so.

The bottom line is that burn was never perfect. There have always been folk behaving poorly at it. As one's wonder diminishes (as one ages, perhaps) one sees more of what one considers negative and less of what one considers positive. But it's the considering that matters, more that the object that is considered oftentimes, seems to me.

Ron

[Ron]

... The yahoo ratio is growing. The crime issue is growing, the infrastructure is being strained and there seems to be no end in sight. But these are all just my opinions and I appreciate and respect your own opinion on this.

BTW, I'm all with you in terms of wanting to improve things. That's a persistent drive of mine as well, and why I try to stay out of the silly rudeness that permeates this board and the burn itself, among other things.

My put to you would be that your efforts to create improvements in the burn might be more effective if you resisted the urge to make comparative analysis, used specific examples, and made concrete suggestions. For example when you say, "the yahoo ratio is growing," all you do is invite argument. What's a yahoo? How do you know the ratio is growing? And so on.

Instead if you had a specific event in mind talk about that. "At the 2006 burn I saw a group four or five young men follow a young woman around cat calling, whistling, and screaming out, 'show us your tits.' She was obviously put out by the attention and I and my friends asked her if she wanted to walk with us while telling the assholes in question to move along. Here's a bit of a mirror for the community to consider what it wants to be." By being specific you actually address an issue, rather than just putting your own opinions up on a target for us sharpshooters to take aim at. :)

Think crime is a growing problem? Get the police reports and demonstrate that. Think there aren't enough folk doing art? Count the number of art pieces on a given street on a given day for a few years and report the results. Think the infrstructre can't handle the growth? Demonstrate that we're leaving a big trace, that the porta potties are flooded, or that folk are being trampled in the streets. And so on.

So I share your desire to improve things. It's just that I think the heart of the issues that need to be improved beats in the chest of the long time returning burner as much as it does in the new folk who are coming along. I think we're confusing ourselves when we say it's the growth and the new folk who are the problem. The real problem is the drunks who think they can do whatever they want and a good chunk of those folk get in early, stay late, and have been coming for years, IMHO.

Ron

[ygmir]

....[/quote]

The bottom line is that burn was never perfect.

Ron[/quote]

dang............

[thirt33n]

TheJudge-
thankyou for your last response man.
you did manage to keep the bull out of the china shop.

sorry if my posts offended you or angered that bull. i have horns on my head sometimes too.


=======


i think you knew this would be the most volatile place to post your article/column. you didn't have to do it but i think any journalist wants to be hit over the head with responses for some sick reason. I always wanna hear criticism and i almost never like it.


Ron- the crap and flowers line is great.

I'm a bout two trips past my burner shed away from opening the door.
shark or not, i'm fucking excited.


TheJugde, i know that even though you wrote that article,, you'll be very aware of what's going on out in Black Rock City.

I will take a moment for you there just lie i do for all who can't or won't.

Crux

[TheJudge]

More folk means both more odds of there being assholes present, but it also means more odds of their being genus present as well.

Not to mention species, family order phylum and kingdom.

You are right when it comes to solid facts versus hyperbole. I didnt have the numbers, so like most people, I made a blanket accusation. However, based off of my observations, which include frequent discussions with Rangers, BLM, and Washoe County Sheriffs, my opinion is that there seems to be more yahoos prevalent.

And by "yahoo" I mean the negative element - the individuals that don't get it: the day trippers that think its a rave, the lookie-loos that take pictures without asking, the guys that have no regard for other peoples personal space, steal bikes, vandalize art, throw their trash on the ground (or in the porta potties) and usually don't contribute much more than ticket revenue or beer sales in Empire.

When I say "yahoo" I mean the people that act like they are at Daytona Beach instead of Black Rock City.

And I have tried to do my part to help the city as much as I can. I have worked the gate for more years than I can remember and have probably torn the tickets of many ePlaya folks without even being aware. Every time I've caught someone trying to hop the fence or hiding under the fold up bed in the back of an RV (one of the oldest tricks in the book, BTW) I feel I am giving something back to the city. Its not much, but its what I try to do to make the event better.

Thirt33n - no offense taken. I've been around message forums long enough to know flamewars are not personal - despite my sometimes curt and abrasive rebuttals.

And you are right: I didnt have to post the article to the ePlaya, but I am a glutton for punishment. Having been a part of the Temple of Atonement for seven years may have done that to me. (oh who am I kidding, I've always been a glutton for punishment, both giving and receiving)

[capjbadger]

You are right when it comes to solid facts versus hyperbole. I didnt have the numbers, so like most people, I made a blanket accusation. However, based off of my observations, which include frequent discussions with Rangers, BLM, and Washoe County Sheriffs, my opinion is that there seems to be more yahoos prevalent.

Of course there are more yahoos. If we assume that the percentage of yahoos in the city stays roughly steady from year to year, 1% of 1000 is only 100 yahoos, but 1% of 40,000, now you're at 4000 yahoos. So yes, there are more. Plus one's perception of the situation is skewed by the fact that yahoos show up on the "radar" far more that the average burner that is not causing trouble.

While I don't have all that many year at BM under my belt compaired to the "veteran burners", I do have the same experience from way too many years of working ren faires.
The vets complain that the event has gone downhill and use that as a reason for leaving, as if that would somehow fix the issues they are seeing.
Leaving changes nothing.
Yes, a single person is not going to make changes. But the vets as a whole can.

Abandoning the event you claim to enjoy so much makes you part of the problem, not the solution.

Badger