RV / vehicle exhaust courtesy

[we0ne]

HI All,

Don't know if this has been posted yet, but, Just a reminder to those of us with RV's or any vehicle: Please be courteous to your neighbours and attach some dryer/ ducting tubing to your exhaust pipe, long enough that you can attach the tubing all the way up the back of your RV to the roof so that if you are running your RV for any length of time, your exhaust is being admitted above the top of your RV and bypassing peoples tents, faces etc. This is especially important if you are in cramped quarters.

Cheers,
Skyneedle

[phil]

> Please be courteous to your neighbours and attach some dryer/
> ducting tubing to your exhaust pipe

and run it back into your vehicle so you know what it's like having to live next to some jerkoff running his vehicle in camp. Same with generators: run the exhaust into _your_ tent/car/shade instead of mine.

[dragonpilot]

Wow...this is a good one...on the list!

[robotland]

HI All,

Don't know if this has been posted yet, but, Just a reminder to those of us with RV's or any vehicle: Please be courteous to your neighbours and attach some dryer/ ducting tubing to your exhaust pipe, long enough that you can attach the tubing all the way up the back of your RV to the roof so that if you are running your RV for any length of time, your exhaust is being admitted above the top of your RV and bypassing peoples tents, faces etc. This is especially important if you are in cramped quarters.

Cheers,
Skyneedle

More like... don't even THINK about pulling up to any already-settled part of BRC and running your AirShitMaker without there being repercussions. If, as the DPW dictum goes, "Tire Pressure Is A Privelige", then IMAGINE what you might reap by pulling up and fouling your neighbors' campsites. Be sure to consult your map. Are you right next to Hushville? Duh....Do THEY allow gennys? No? Move On. The city's bigger than ever this year...plenty of room for Doom Boxes of all sizes.[/b]

[Captain Goddammit]

Generators are allowed at Burning Man. If you don't like them, YOU go camp in Hushville or walk-in.

[phil]

From the BM site:

GENERATORS AT BURNING MAN
Thinking of bringing a generator to Burning Man?

Black Rock City is a noisy place, no question about it. Music, laughter, questionable performance art, chanting, shouting, singing and drumming are all part of the experience. Yet, while the drone of raves in the night is something we can all adapt to, the relentless brrrrraaaaaaaaappp of a noisy generator is quite another. Just as bad, the exhaust -- bet you never thought about that! -- can be like sleeping inside a garage with a car running to your neighbors.

You should first consider environmentally friendly energy solutions
[http://www.burningman.com/environment/r ... nergy.html]
but if you do choose to bring and share a generator, please be considerate of others by following these guidelines:

Bring the quietest generator you can afford, and the smallest that will meet your actual needs. Larger generators are more difficult to transport, use more fuel and create more pollution.
Don't run your generator late at night or early in the morning.
Place the generator as far from other camps as possible.
Cover your generator with a sound shield or baffle. Do NOT bury it to shield the noise. No matter how well it is filled afterwards, the hole leaves a tremendous gouge in the playa.
Make sure people can't trip over any power cords.

http://www.burningman.com/preparation/e ... ators.html

Kindly follow BMOrg's suggestions and be considerate of others, if you can't find an alternative to the BRRRRRAAAAAAPPPP of a noisy generator with the exhaust in your neighbor's faces.

[AntiM]

One year we had an RV try to bribe their way into Hushville. Yes, bribe with money. Asked me if I'd give it to Ohio (who does village placing internally) and called it a "playa gift." I told them to fuck off.

[Captain Goddammit]

I'm not saying to ignore etiquette, I'm all about super-quiet generators and proper placement of them, but there will be electricity at Bman, and there will be generators. Solar is cool but doesn't make enough watts per dollar.
I brought a fairly loud set my first year, but when it bothered the neighbors I shut it off and when I got home I sold it.
I like the vertical exhaust hose idea, I'm gonna look into that.

[phil]

Note that the original post is for RVs in cramped quarters and that the responses may be to that.

[Mosin]

RV exhausts are designed to get the gasses away from the coach without feeding back through the a/c. Even the $149 Genturi system (which has a venturi opening at the base to avoid the excessive backpressure on your generator the dryer hose idea would create) gets bad ratings for fumes and/or setting off CO2 alarms. I would weld one myself if the fumes weren't so problematic. IMHO the only true solution is just to be cognizant of others and work it out with your neighbors case-by-case.

[thirt33n]

i've used the metal flex hose exhaust trick the last two years. works great for RV built in gennies and engine exhaust.

[Mosin]

[quote="thirt33n"]i've used the metal flex hose exhaust trick the last two years. works great for RV built in gennies and engine exhaust.[/quote]

I'm all for cheap solutions, so if you don't mind, exactly what diameter, length, and type of hose did you use? Metal dryer hose? Do you leave a gap where the exhust end mates to your hose/extension to allow a venturi effect or just seal the gap? If you are a gearhead you know there is backpressure created... especially if you're running 10+ feet. That is not good for anything but a rental genny ;)

Thanks!

[we0ne]

I too have used the metal flex hose for a few years. Not quite understanding why there would be any back pressure? The gas is moved freely without obstruction from the exhaust pipe. Where it sits after that, shouldn't effect the generator. As for working it out with your neighbors in tight quarters; I can't see anytime being a good time to blast them with exhaust.

Skyneedle

[thirt33n]

well, i'm not quite a gearhead, i'm becoming one, slightly(damn old tractors).

i'm on a ranch an we have shit lyin around everywhere. i used this kinda heavy duty flexible steel pipe/hose and i can't find a pic on the internet of a similar one. shit, could be a relic from years ago....anyway, it's just barely bigger than the exhaust pipe so i just slipped it over with no fastening and ran it up the back about 6 feet or so. it's prolly inch and a 1/4.
i think dreyer hose would work great and be big enough to create less back pressure too.

[Mosin]

I won't get into the nitty gritty, but without a venturi there WILL be pressure created unless you're using like 6+ in. diameter line. A venturi (an opening at the base ) allows cool air to mix with the hot air and greatly facilitates the upward movement of the gasses. Most people don't know and/or give a crap about their cars/engines/gennys enough to do this properly. I just had an old-school (1976) 6.5kw Onan rv genny completely rebuilt for $1,500 and I want it to last another 32 years. With all due respect, you don't accomplish mechanical longevity by "out thinking" the original engineers with Home Depot solutions. :wink:

Which brings us to the next, and perhaps more important issue/question, since I said I would be willing to build one properly (or even buy a "Genturi") IF the fumes blowing back into the coach via the a/c's wasn't a very well known/documented problem. The question is, why is it that not a single RV is designed with a stock upward/roof exhaust extension?! Because the RV designers are stupid? Because they have disdain for tent campers and/or quite/nature? Because 10 feet of exhaust tubing and an elbow would hurt their bottom line? The answer is that you would need a 15-20 foot extender to get the fumes high enough so there would be no way they could recirculate through the a/c unit/s. If you had such an extender it would have to be at least 4 in. diameter and have a fat venturi at the base (which allows sound to escape) otherwise your genny would be toast in short order. That is simply impractical.

Finally, if my neighbors arrive after me and decide to plant tents next to the right rear side of my RV--assuming they don't like exhaust--that is their problem. I am as open to working with others to create a hospitable scene for all, but if there is no meeting 1/2 way and the attitude is "Dude, your generator stinks and is loud when you run it" then my response has to be 'Well you probably should find another place to camp, BRO!" :D

[thirt33n]

good stuff mo. good to know.

none of this applies to me this year as i am RV and gennie-less.

when i've used a gennie it's never been for longer than 30 minutes,...except for the dirty snow cone party, and i almost never start the RV engine. i guess i'm more of a non-power using fella.

[phreakshew]

y'all sound pretty knowledgable about this so I thought I'd post me question here:

We are bringing our small but damn loud genny to run our AC during the day.

We read about creating a generator box (with no top or bottom) on the BM website - wanted to know how well that actually works to lower decibels -

Also was wondering about the backpressure issue with extended tubing -
this guy affixed a car muffler to his genny and, according to his website, it has significantly reduced the noise output.
[url]http://www.alpharubicon.com/altenergy/gensetquiet.htm[/url]

Also, I thought I had read of somebody else porting their exhaust into a big drum of water. If this were to work, could it not only reduce sound output but also help to evaporate grey water?

[Mosin]

Sweet mother of god do not port your exhaust into water!!! Talk about backpressure! Sure you could have the hot gas blow ON the water and/or meld the exhaust system to the evap container to heat it up, but a sure way to blow your genny up (or at least shorten its life considerbly) is to run the exhaust into water... in 100 deg. temps no less. Bad idea.

A short extension to get the exhaust gasses out of your enclosure is a good idea, as would be a "fresh air" intake hose outside of the enclosure. Check your air filters daily! (Compressed air cans work great for this).

[phreakshew]

THANKS FOR THE TIP! I really don't want to kill the genny - at least not until they make one that will run solely on hempseed oil...

I was thinking about rigging a small computer type fan (I could plug it into the generator) on the side of said box to bring in fresh air - ? Hell, maybe two - one bringing air in and one pulling hot air out - maybe this would allow for an actual lid of some sort to the box.

It's a small 1800 watt coleman generator. Do you think a car muffler attached to a short section of flex hose would work, as in the link in my previous post?

- that html code did not work. maybe this will: <a>http://www.alpharubicon.com/altenergy/g ... iet.htm</a>

They hooked theirs up to a 10hp, 5K watt generator. Our is only 3.5hp, 1750 watt. Would this smaller size mean more backpressure if hooked up to a car muffler?

thanx again for the suggestions! we want to be cool but don't want to be rude!

[Mosin]

Fans would be unnecessary/useless or even detrimental if you ducted the exhaust and intake external to the enclosure. If your enclosure was, ah, totally enclosed (!) then a strong fan would be needed bring fresh/cool air into the system. I don't recommend this, as you would be chasing your tail trying to run a fan big enough to keep fresh air/oxygen into the enclosure and disipate heat at the same time. A four-walled enclosure is sufficient. Too bad we can't scrape playa dust into sandbags... (?!)

Re. the external exuhaust system, it might work. Or you might be a bit hot sleeping on mornings 3-7... :) I would research the hell out of backpressure dynamics (i.e. scour BM and RV sites dealing w/ this) before rigging something up.

[phreakshew]

coolness thanx Mosin-

I will continue my research - and post my results later.

Holy crap! only 2 1/2 more weeks!

[Mosin]

I look forward to hearing the results! btw/ some older RVs have a cool old-school fresh water pre-heater piping system that runs the radiator water back to the water heater and forward again to the radiator. This ads huge volume to the engine cooling system as well as much more ability to disipate heat (by way of the ducting under the rig and the process of heating up and maintaining the heat of the fresh water in the hot water heater). Then, when you arrive at your destination you can take that hot shower/bidet. ;) They were discontinued because people wouldn't do required maintenance and inevitably they would leak... leading to overheating and/or engine failure.
I mention this because there are things that can be done with the exhaust gasses and/or coolant that are beneficial, but one has to think... if porting genny exhaust into water is such a great sound deadening approach, why don't RVs all have a stock "water muffler/reservoir" (i.e. glorified coffee can), which would cost the manufacturer about $10? Anyhoo, good luck and let us know how it goes!

[gyre]

I have never heard of this venturi approach with engine exhaust.
It seems backwards to me.
I would think insulating might be needed to keep the pressure up enough to get the gas out.
There are almost no exhaust systems that cannot be improved on.
Just look at a really high end system to see what's left out of most.
Flex joints help.
I extend car exhausts as far as possible and still reduce backpressure.
Better generators are completely sealed and watercooled and sometimes vented into water.
I'm not versed in the marine approach but it can be done.
It may require a certain setup.

SPD has great flex joints in steel, stainless steel, inconel, etc.
The flexible tubing mentioned may be available from JC Whitney.

A muffler closest to the rear of the pipe creates less pressure but is less effective.
At least 1 to 2 feet after it makes sense.
A device to break up pulses close to the engine helps a lot.
A straight through disc design works for that, like the suppressor on a rifle.
Diameter does not have to be large to work.
Inverted perforated cones added to mufflers seem to help with no added pressure.

It is possible to make a pipe too large in this case.
Cooling is a factor with the gas.
The goal is not the same as with a racing engine.
As long as the gas can barely propel itself out the end and there is no pressure problem at the engine, it should not be a problem.
It seems practical to me.

An enclosure is a great idea if you're willing to make sure cooling issues are addressed.
Some RV and generator manufacturers do this.
Much easier with watercooling.
I've used very quiet Onans with watercooling.


I have seen small generators that made me want to kill someone.
Last year I slept very near a big generator, no issues.


Not all RVs run engines.
Be sure to let people know if you plan to.

[gyre]

Worth mentioning that not all mufflers are equal.
You can get a low pressure type cheaply.
Too small, baffles and bad design create unnecessary pressure.
Okay when it hurts nothing.
Dynomax makes good cheap mufflers.
I use some of the race type on one car, still very reasonable.
Cherry Bomb makes a louvered glass pack, very good- directional.
A Dynomax truck style muffler is a good choice for many things by cost.
Borla makes one of the better mufflers.
Their good one uses multiple tubes to separate the gases, about $300.
Better ones in carbon fibre.

Dividing tubes into smaller pipe and then rejoining can be done with gain rather than loss, but joints are crucial.
SPD has knife edged parts for this.
I have had boomy issues with 3 and a half inch pipes.
Borla may be an indicator that it's very beneficial.
The Borla muffler is really helpful at higher rpm (the multi-tube)
They make a cheap version that is just like everyone else's.

If anyone wants anything more exotic, I know someone in Italy that can make you asymmetric systems in polished inconel and titanium.
True artwork.

[phil]

http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic.php?t=25395

People in adjoining RV killed by carbon monoxide from someone else's generator running at night.

[capjbadger]

Also, I thought I had read of somebody else porting their exhaust into a big drum of water. If this were to work, could it not only reduce sound output but also help to evaporate grey water?

Hmm... grey water evap... Well yes, you don't want to run the pipe into the water, but you could do a heat exchanger. Run the exhaust tube through the evamp pond and out the other side into the open air. The tube would heat up from the exhaust gasses and heat the water.

Badger

[phreakshew]

hmmm lots of good ideas! Running the exhaust through, rather than into, water would be good yes- maybe we could run it through kiddie pool without melting the pool?

-good to remember that not all mufflers are created equal -I'm going to be asking a lot of questions around at different muffler shops and see what's up out in the u-pull-it as well...

Kinda thinking about building the 4-sided box with some sort of fireproof sound-deadening material on the inside walls (don't know if this will do much good), and running the exhaust out of the enclosure into a car muffler.

If the box was tall, like average person height, would that decrease the airflow to the generator? If so, then what about suspending one large box fan directly atop of the enclosure to draw more air into it? How is this detrimental? - This is just an idea- I wouldn't want a big wind to blow a tall heavy box over onto somebody or something!

Phil- thanx for reposting Mosin's sad post about those people getting killed in their sleep form carbon monoxide poisoning~ we're getting a detector for sure.

BTW, I'm doing this now instead of 3 months ago because I've been taking summer classes. I actually have a pharmacology final coming up real soon. Phooey.

[Mosin]

A venturi (aka glorified hole at base) allows cool air to mix in with the hot exhaust fumes to greatly reduce pressure in the tube and hasten the upward climb. Otherwide your genny is doing all the pushing. Go see a photo of the name-brand "Genturi" for design ideas.

[quote]"The goal is not the same as with a racing engine. As long as the gas can barely propel itself out the end and there is no pressure problem at the engine, it should not be a problem. It seems practical to me."[/quote]

I'm glad this works for you and that you are confident in your assessment. Personally I don't prepare for the Moon Shot (AKA 10 days on the playa doing extreme boondocking) based on what "should" be OK or what "seems practical." The "goal" of almost all gasoline engines is the same (racing engine, go-kart, lawn mower, genny etc) as there is a direct relationship between excessive heat, power/efficiency, and long term use/reliability. How this power is used/transferred is another story, but the basic dynmics are consistent. Fresh air intake is a must (for both cooling and carbueration) as is unfettered exhaust with a proper amount of backpressure. The length and type of exhaust system/s are designed by engineers to be as quiet as possible while meeting the requisite pressure. If quieting down a $300 chinese genny to Honda levels was as easy as melding a Dynaflo to the system it would have been done by the manufacturers a long time ago as it would be dirt cheap on the production end.

To clarify, I am not saying there aren't improvements/tweaks that can be safely done, but rather that they need to be done with plenty of forethought and testing (especially thermal). Generator manufacturers will not honor their warranty if they know someone has "improved" on the system with Home Depot rigging that "seems practical" and the same goes for a store-bought Genturi, so be careful and do your research!! :)

[mojo]

I have made a box for my Honda EU Genny out of furnace filters - it works well but it needs to have the playa kicked out of it occasionally.

[EspressoDude]

> Please be courteous to your neighbours and attach some dryer/
> ducting tubing to your exhaust pipe

and run it back into your vehicle so you know what it's like having to live next to some jerkoff running his vehicle in camp. Same with generators: run the exhaust into _your_ tent/car/shade instead of mine.

Don't pitch your tent next to an RV