How would Treasure Island Work...

[Guest]

Finally got warm enough out in my canyon to melt enough snow to take the horse out for a spin. Robinson Jeffers is a mustang(don't confuse him with the poet), hadn't been ridden since November so we had to figure out who was in charge again. 70 today, 23 last night. Freezer is getting low, saw deer tracks down by Mud Creek, and some of Estill's slow elk.. So we are in good shape.. Maybe hunt tomorrow.

Ya'll reinforced some of my opinions at least about Californians, and changed some of my opinions about BM people. I had it figured that some how some of the Peace Love and Dope of the early 70's filtered out to the Black Rock for BM.. But the level of rage expressed in these posts,,,, whooowheee,, the name calling and such.. I suppose it is the result of city living.. So I don't hold it against you. Poor guys, all that PC repression.. Come on out to Nevada, spend a season as a Buckaroo,, put some hair on your chest. Seen Hidalgo yet?

Hey, Stuart,, do your own math, didn't your teacher tell you that, back in school?

[stuart]

I aint askin ya to do math for me. I am asking you to factually back your claim that LH garners 7 figures a year from the event kitty.

you're condecension and not so subtle xenophobic insults are especially hard to take when wrapped in the phony oturage over 'name calling and such'.

all of that living out in the wilderness subjugating your children with little influence from your fellow man really must have given you a warped sense of worth.

[Tancorix]

Someone needs a clue stick and I'm not looking in the mirror while typing this.

[theCryptofishist]

From my two years of living in semi-rural CA foothills: a lot (not all) of the "mountain men" types really are socially inept and nasty-tempered persons that cannot have anyone near them. And they have diminished capacities to take a step back from themselves and say "Oh that's who I am, no need to take it too seriously."
Is that the case here? Not enough information yet. But certainly no reason to rule it out.

[Silver]

OK, spare me, … tain’t, buckaroo, ya’ll and at the same time using words like ‘aesthetically’. The stress on having ‘MUSTANGS’, your freezer is getting low but you saw tracks so you should be OK; give me a break. My grandfathers and one grandmother grew up living the life you are touting, well kind of, no electricity, no cars or trucks, no sailboats. In his youth my father lived that way also, to this day (he is 86) he cannot stomach deer or rabbit. Mustangs they did have, caught them, rode them, ate them or sold them for dog food depending on the market; and they did it because they could not get better or they needed a few bucks in their pockets. The long and the short of it is that they were happy to get away from that life and from the stories that I was told it was in no way ennobling though from the way you write it makes you god’s gift to the unenlightened. I have third cousins that still live on a couple of Rezes in Texas who more or less live the life you keep going on about, trust me, in general they would be long gone if they had made the right choices early on.

That you want to live out in the boonies and live off the land does not bother me a bit; however, your assumed moral superiority is a pain in the ass. Just curious, where are you from originally? I have loads of high desert relatives and never once heard the phrase: ‘tack without winding up in irons’.

“and I realize ya'll got no concept of what lies beyond the playa”, most probably, not all. I and I know of at least several others have spent a lot of time out in various wildernesses; we are not a monolithic group. That really does not matter, living in the outback or living in a city in no way makes anyone ‘special’ or ethically superior, they are simply where they are and where they want to be.

To preclude questions or challenges, I am 51, I have been a part time hippy, have spent weeks at a time wilderness camping and living off the land in the high desert, the Gila Wilderness and Eastern forests, I still carry scars from rodeo and I surprised the hell out of myself four years ago when I managed to rope a calf from horseback (really surprised my cousin who figured I wouldn’t remember how to saddle a horse much less do anything useful). I am a computer geek that hasn’t fired a gun in 10 years much less killed anything. I live in the suburbs of Washington DC and I love the nightlife, friends and excitement of the city.

I do have a suggestion, if you don’t like seeing Burning Man and its clutter pack up the kids and go sailing for a week or two. Don’t look at those four sections of the Playa when you get back, there are at least 23 more sections to check out. For you lowly city folk, a section is one square mile, either 660 or 640 acres.

[Guest]

held by mighty few, mores the pity.. I used to work at gas station we had a sounding pole,, drop it into the underground tank to gauge the level of the fuel. Doin' bout the same thing here. ceptn with ya'll's internalized anger... All that BM harmony, tribes, everbody so nice, seems like a bunch horse pucky don' it. You boys read back over yer posts and check for anger.. seems like a little buddha meditation stuff ud do ya boys good.. I tain't got no problem with BM.. My grandaddy used to do a sheep round up twict a yar.. ya'll jes be lik the fall roundup.. Ah be at peace with my self,, my little family... our garden,, our reall technological power and communication system.. my easy rider rifle rack. Don' have none uh that urban stress stuff you boys be demonstratin'. Ya'll notice,, I don't call ya'll names, ceptin for sheep,, cause you like body packing the black rock like a buncha sheep.. inside that orange fence with all them cops around ya' But we like sheep out here in Nevada. Long winter nights, no wemen... Sheeps fine.. You boys, be providin usn's with some good entertainment. "Daddy, what them city people like?" "Angry, Darlin' Angry, Jess you read these posts" "Gee Daddy, mebbe we oughta give some horses, that'l make em feel better" Silver, where I grow up? I growd up on a 3,000 acre farm, we grew flowers, 3,000 acres of the purtiest flowers you ever did see, ah been trying to get away from that memory ever since.

[stuart]

father, what are those rural folks like? Backwards and self important my dear. Xenophobic and close minded as well. Should we educate them or let them be father? My sweet, they think themselves above you and as such don't deserve your kind thoughts. They do go on about sheep though don't they father? Well you know country folk dear, very tight with the extended family they are.

[Guest]

It is the Jeffersonian ideal... The rural man, the yeoman farmer standing opposed to the Hamiltonian Federalist, the city man, don't worry, you have won.. Jeffersons ideal failed, the rural man comprises less than 3% of the nation today.. So relax See, even when you go the country, you bring the city.. You won..

[Last Real Burner]

Ya'll reinforced some of my opinions at least about Californians, and changed some of my opinions about BM people. I had it figured that some how some of the Peace Love and Dope of the early 70's filtered out to the Black Rock for BM.. But the level of rage expressed in these posts,,,, whooowheee,, the name calling and such.. I suppose it is the result of city living.. So I don't hold it against you. Poor guys, all that PC repression.. Come on out to Nevada, spend a season as a Buckaroo,, put some hair on your chest. Seen Hidalgo yet?

Hey, Stuart,, do your own math, didn't your teacher tell you that, back in school?

I think you got us mixed up with those hippy dippy rainbow ravers... We specialize in setting shit on fire, and blowing shit up! yeah and we do it drunk, so fucking what. Iffin you could read you, would know we perfected the the drive by shooting gallery, and get our mail by the Disgruntal Postal Workers, and one of our biggest camps is the "Death Guild" among other things... be careful Buckoo we know where you live (your IP number lists with your home address DUH!). Isn't your house made out of wood? (hint, hint, hint) You know what happens when you shoot a 25 gallon propane tank? Wanna find our?

I'll ask you again.... what the fuck are you doing on this board? And from now on anything you need to say to me say it in public don't PM me, fucktard. Go troll somewhere else.... That is all...



"The problem with the gene pool is that there is no lifeguard. "
you'res truely,
mr smith

[ramen]

That's the spirit of BM. Whatever you disagree with, just insult people crudely and then flip them off.

The guy's right. Maybe he's off base with his remarks, but talk about hitting a gnat with a bazooka. Chill out already. Take a testosterone cooler or something.

[Last Real Burner]

Hey I ment that in the nicest way, Ramen...


"Blessed are they, who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
nicely,
mr smith

[Wind_Borne]

I pity the man who spends his life in the city and never gets to see the stars rotating above his head at night.
I pity the man who never wanders from his home town, boards a train, and finally walks up from the subway onto Times Square two days before Christmas.

I pity, too, the man who is unmoved by the lonely vastness of the Black Rock Desert in April;
Just as I pity the man who is not thrilled by the wonders of human creativity at the Burn in August.

[robotland]

I pity the man who spends his life in the city and never gets to see the stars rotating above his head at night.
I pity the man who never wanders from his home town, boards a train, and finally walks up from the subway onto Times Square two days before Christmas.

I pity, too, the man who is unmoved by the lonely vastness of the Black Rock Desert in April;
Just as I pity the man who is not thrilled by the wonders of human creativity at the Burn in August.

Wouldn't this be a wonderful passage upon which to END this uglyness?

[Guest]

I do thank you gentlemen. (why male dominated?) I learned much about BM'ers. I think it would be nice if Admin, perhaps Technopatra,, noticed an actual threat of violence was made.
Again,, a bit of homework if you are interested,, the poems of Robinson Jeffers, the works of Ed Abbey, Wallace Stegner, Gretel Erlich. Find if you can, Sessions Wheeler's books on the Black Rock Desert.

[Last Real Burner]

I learned much about BM'ers. I think it would be nice if Admin, perhaps Technopatra,, noticed an actual threat of violence was made.

Hey Ric, Ok you've made your point, you got your attention, your in. Now maybe you can sit back relax, and become a vital member of our little community. If in truth, you have read most of this board, you knew the type of reception you would recieve for the crap you came on spewing. We're a good bunch of people, loving, and caring, and easy to get along with. Very accepting of every type and ilk of people. You accually sound like a great guy who we could all grow to love and respect, and seeing as that is most likely the case lets start this meeting over. Hi I'm rick I live in LA and I've been to the burn 3 times. Whats your sign? FYI Tecnopatra probably noticed and knew we were just giving you rash of shit and if she were not the admin she probably would given you a little herself.

Welcome to the burner family BRR.

"Always remember you're unique. Just like everyone else."
your bestest friend,
mr smith

[theCryptofishist]

See, even when you go the country, you bring the city..

Too much for me. I see the city in so much of what BRR says, his whole romanticism of the wild is so culturally rooted in urbanity.

I also suspect that he enjoys having an affectionate, companionate relationship with his daughter, rather than seeing her as an asset to be sold to the highest bidder (in goods or tribal prestige) or worse yet, a liability who must be dowered. And he's also going to miss out on the pleasure of seeing her picked on by his son-in-law's senior wives. And then dead at 22 of post-partum fever. Let's remember that the previous centuries haven't been particulary kind to women.

Good story, Silver.

[Rob the Wop]

I do thank you gentlemen. (why male dominated?) I learned much about BM'ers.

You seem intelligent, why do you assume male dominance from an extremely small statistical sample? Unless you are referring to the backlash towards calling us sheep, thereby 'subtly' implying a mindless caste of lower beings? The male of our species is more likely respond to insults with hostility. Blame testosterone.

I have known many desert loners- be them that have ridden with independent cattle herds in their youth, or remnants of past mining towns. Hell, my step dad is half Cherokee and spent his youth on a desert ranch. He is well educated (mostly self taught) and has worked as a chemist at a chemical plant, owned his own jewelry shop (cutting his own gemstones and making the settings), a talented woodworker, petroglyph artist, security guard, etc. He has conquered many things in life and is one of the wisest men I know. He is a somewhat quiet man that never volunteers information in a discussion, but always amazes those around him with his depth of knowledge when asked a question. He currently lives in Pahrump and can definitely lay claim to any rural knowledge you claim to possess.

But you have a few things that he does not.
Conceit. Arrogance. A self-centered xenophobic view.

You would think a wise man such as yourself would not join a Burning Man community message board and use 'subtle' (as a hammer) insults while trying to 'persuade' (again, subtle as a hammer) us 'city-slickers' to have our festival where you couldn't ride 5 miles and see it once a year. You expected a receptive audience afterwards?

And just to make sure you understand it, a veiled insult is still an insult. A pretense of sainthood does not make the insult disappear.

[Silver]

I should let it go but this offends me:

"My grandaddy used to do a sheep round up twict a yar.. ya'll jes be lik the fall roundup."

You don't round up sheep twice a year. Sheep live and move in flocks, you don't round them up because you don't have to; you herd the things with dogs. Also I have never (excepting parts of Oz) heard of anyone free ranging sheep. Sheep generally have to be looked after fairly carefully. Also, if you were free ranging there would be no reason for a 'fall roundup' both lambing and shearing would happen in the spring. Note: you need to be there for lambing so you can dock the tails and castrate the males, if you waited until fall to shear most of your wool would be scattered all over hell and gone (sheep shed in the summer). Informational note, I really don't know that much about sheep, those in my family that are still on the land ranch and generally don't like sheepers.

My guess is Ric lives in studio apt. with his two cats.

I am done with this thread and country boy Ric.

By the way, I have seen people try and move sheep with both horses and dirt bikes, they were very unsuccessful.

[Rob the Wop]

You don't round up sheep twice a year. Sheep live and move in flocks, you don't round them up because you don't have to; you herd the things with dogs. Also I have never (excepting parts of Oz) heard of anyone free ranging sheep. Sheep generally have to be looked after fairly carefully. Also, if you were free ranging there would be no reason for a 'fall roundup' both lambing and shearing would happen in the spring. Note: you need to be there for lambing so you can dock the tails and castrate the males, if you waited until fall to shear most of your wool would be scattered all over hell and gone (sheep shed in the summer). Informational note, I really don't know that much about sheep, those in my family that are still on the land ranch and generally don't like sheepers.

Well smarty pants, did ya thunk maybe Grandpappy didn't use the sheep fer wool? Geez, yalls city slickers don know good wimins when yalls see em'.

[Tancorix]

I'm about tempted to hoist the sock alert flag. What's with this speech of his? Nobody talks like that anymore!

I'm wishing someone could track some IP addresses and put a stop to this nonsense. The studio apartment comment is most likely true, or not very far off the mark.

[Guest]

I recommend "Basque Hotel" by Robert Laxalt.. In Nevada, sheep head out after lambing, in the old days watched over by Basque shepherds who could handle the loneliness better than others. The Scots and Irish were better shepherds but the isolation drove them mad.. The shepherd would have a dog or two and a mule to haul his gear. In the fall the sheep would be gathered, "rounded up" is a phrase understood by slickers and put on valley ranges for the winter. The Basque shepherd would spend the off season in a boarding hotel. While the sheep stayed in fenced pasture. Thus the Basque hotel and Basque restuarants around Nevada. Lots of Cattlemen hated the Basques and sometimes shot them on sight. Smart Cattlemen, ran sheep and cattle and hayed the bottomlands, that allowed them to survive market fluctuations. Some cattlemen like my granddaddy also farmed.. 3,000 acres of those danged flowers again. The Last Burner Rick has revealed his humanity... but the nasty posts he has disavowed have been replaced by others... Ya'll with the nasty posts, merely reflect the state of the culture you exist in. If I seem to think I am superior, is it because I know if I pull your chain you will go ballistic, or am I simply following in the long established tradition of the American frontiersman. America is the new land. Americans see themselves as superior to Europeans precisely because of the crucible of the frontier. Those of you who have chosen to remove yourself from the constest of man against the land are existing in the European tradition your ancestors fled. You have reassembled what was run from. The Black Rock Desert and environs is a special place precisely because it is a remnant of the frontier. My home, is not just a geographical place, it is a spiritual space. It exists in the vastness, it exists in the emptiness. The profound effect of the vast emptiness on ones soul is altered immeasurably by the presences of others. When I came home from Vietnam, my spiritual world was shattered. The purity of the desert has healed it, nearly... The children of America's prosperity who have not experience such a beast as that war can little concieve of the effect that war had on some of us. I cannot hold that against you. I envy you. With the innocence of children you play with sticks in the sand. If you tell me you attend to have a party. That is understandable. If you tell me there is a spiritual component, I say,, leave the site, move many hours east or north... There are spirits.. In the las 150 years over 200 people have vanished without trace in and around the Black Rock Desert. Donnelly Peak north of the Playa is named for Capt Donnelly US Army. He and his cavalry patrol out of Fort McGarry north of the play disappeared without a trace in the 1860's. No trace was ever found. There are spirits, but you won't find them at Black Rock City. .

[Tancorix]

I formally retract my sock comments.

[Rob the Wop]

If I seem to think I am superior, is it because I know if I pull your chain you will go ballistic, or am I simply following in the long established tradition of the American frontiersman.

Alright, now I'm confused. Are you saying that you were just pulling our chains (which I understand, believe it or not), or that you are superior because you are a frontiersman? Which doesn't make sense because frontiersman generally headed out to establish strongholds of civilization ie. developing towns and cities- which you imply isn't part of being a frontiersman.

The culture of the frontiersman is dead. The land has been conquered.

Some find peace in the desert. It sounds like you have, I wish you good luck. I admit that there is something to walking along desert trails at midnight during summer in just your shorts. It begets contemplation. Believe it or not, I hold you no ill will. I simply have never understood the need for a person to declare themselves superior to another. I believe 90% of the problems with humanity can be removed by the proper application of humility. Slavery, caste and class differences, and tyranny all pretty much can be lumped under conceit in one form or another.

[III]

>>the crap you came on spewing

to be fair - brr may have made some controversial statements, but i don't think his posts crossed the lines set by the ug, while a number of the followups did.

considering the vitriol in some of the responses, i think he's shown a far more level head than the people he's been conversing with.

[Guest]

an avowedly offtopic and someone pedantic post, but this thread has been fascinating to watch evolve from this perspective:

Finally, over the life of the group, be aware that you'll probably go through several phases, some pleasant and some not so pleasant. Creative conflict is essential to success, and signs of tension are not omens of doom.

Most groups go through four phases: Forming, Storming, Norming, and Performing (Tuckman).

Forming: During the initial stage of the group, structure is developed, roles are assigned or claimed (both implicitly and explicitly), status relations between members of the group are established, norms begin to emerge, shared values are discovered, and general procedures for decision-making and problem-solving are agreed upon.

Storming: Conflicts in values, perspectives, goals, power, and information are discovered and foregrounded, and progress toward resolution is begun. This is often a creative stage and shouldn't be avoided.

Norming: As conflicts are discovered and resolved, the group's approach to communication and problem-solving, for better or worse, is more firmly established.

Performing: Having established roles, personalities, and norms, the group's time, attention, and energy is increasingly directed at the group task and decreasingly concerned with group maintenance, procedural questions, or personalities.

These phases are not to be moved through as rapidly as possible. Problems in performing may often be traced back to insufficient storming and norming, for instance. Group discussion, while storming out some controversies, may return to issues involved in forming, redistributing responsibilities, rediscovering common values, and modifying procedures. Similarly, a group having difficulty in performing may either implicitly or explicitly, need to redefine some norms. During the first meeting, in particular, you need to lay a lot of groundwork and get a firm foundation. Your group's success depends upon it.

cite: http://www-honors.ucdavis.edu/vohs/sec04-2.html

sorry for the interruption...now we can all get back to whatever of the above stages we each personally happen to be in (grin).

[III]

though i'll give the award for best followups, both in reason and content, to rob the wop. it's actually good reading in a sorta flame thread...

[stuart]

BRR, might I recommend my favorite Nevada travel tome to you? Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas.

enjoy

[technopatra]

Jes' a little reminder - I don't monitor all threads all the time. Sadly, I have a day job, too. So the admins and I depend on the community to notify us of issues they feel I or the other admins should resolve. Formal complaints need to be sent to "eplaya" at "burningman" dot" com to distinguish them from the usual, momentary grousing.

As for this thread..well I just don't understand why, when someone yanks yer chain, y'all jes' toss 'im another one to yank.

BRR is SO obviously baiting you guys that I fail to see how anyone can be upset for falling for it.

And BRR, you know as well as I do that there is no actual threat of violence here regardless of how well you've managed to rile folks up. Don't cry wolf while wearing sheep's clothing, 'kay?

I can only conclude that no one is really upset, that you all know you are here for a li'l old-timey word-wrasslin' and chest-pounding - which can be a fun way to spend some time and is fine by me tho not overly interesting as an admin - so I'ma jes' lettin' y'all be.

...tips hat, holsters six-shooter, rides into sunset on the Palomino mare she always wanted as a child...

[Rob the Wop]

Trey's post had me re-read up on all the posts in this thread (thanks Trey). And Technopatra, I'll give you a wooden paddle so you can spank me at BM for flaming again. Or tell me what to write on the chalkboard, and I promise I'll be a good boy from now on.

Sorry BBR, my bad. You have a similiar agenda to the StopBurningMan folks. They claimed to not want it shut down, yet all of their actions point in the exact oppsite direction. They have used multiple sock puppets and started out in an insulting manner by specifically calling the Burning Man attendees sheep (among other insults).

You simply want the event to be moved somewhere other than the Black Rock Desert. When I first read the thread, I figuratively rolled my eyes and said "Here we go again..." I assumed you were the nth reincarnation of a group interested in removing BM from their 'personal' racing track. When I seen your sheep reference, it cemented in stone my assumption- and I started being pissy.

I apologize for the attack and hope this all gets sorted out in a rational manner. If you really want some kind of rational and logical response, it would help to have an idea of your motivation. Is this purely a personal request to move the event? Or do you feel there is a moral or ethical issue that needs to be addressed?

You posed a solution, ie. moving it to Treasure Island. I doubt this a valid alternative as the SF city didn't want it at the beach where it was held previous- doubtless they would not want it on an island. The BLM and bulk of the Gerlach want it to be on the playa for just the reason you espoused- money. But that's only half of the issue.

If Burning Man were some other type of gathering- one that left huge piles of waste and antagonized the local populace- it would be banned. There is an alliance of sorts between BMORG and Gerlach. The burden of an acceptable alternate site is solely on you unless you can put forth a suitable argument that shows some moral or ethical reason to not hold the event at Black Rock, or at all.

Desert mysticism will not sway those living in air conditioned apartments. Hell, I lived in the desert for years and it doesn't sway me whatsoever. Course my experience with dry lake beds were that they were the one truely dead place in the desert. If you cannot prove a logical argument, then emotional appeals work better when we understand you. Put us in your shoes without implying how lost or unworthy we have become. Isn't that a great writer's best approach?

[Guest]

Who am I? A misanthrope. A lover of empty lands, I don't care for mines, towns, campgrounds, encampments, rainbow family, National Park Service, BLM, Forest Service, armies, navies, air forces and most people. I want BM to move to its center of gravity.. contrary to Rob, I find an empty playa a place of infinite life and beauty. Geology gets the day, Astronomy gets the night. The playa is a poem. I have a photograph of Lake Black Rock above my desk, I took it one spring when the playa was flooded. The mountains across are reflected in the mirror smooth surface, the site of BM could be skimmed over in a flat boat.. I like that. BM is a work of man and should be placed among works of men. Abandoned Air Force bases, Frenchmans Flat.. The SBM folk have perhaps their agenda, it is not mine. They are far more civilized.

Mine is primarily misanthropic, with ancient european and north american natural world spiritual beliefs. I talk to trees before I cut them down, but I do cut them down. I talk to the deer before I take one down, but to be honest I prefer slow elk.. tastier, more meat. Not particularly soulful beasts.

This week my daughter and I will ride for a couple of days up a canyon looking for evidence of the pre indians. 9,000 years ago the people who lived here wore woven cloth clothing. and do not resemble modern indians,, Kinda cool..

Robinson Jeffers writes better than I he speaks of the Pacific to start:

The world has many seas, Mediterranean, Atlantic, but
here is the shore of the one ocean.
And here the heavy future hangs like a cloud; the
enormous scene; the enormous games preparing
Weigh on the water and strain the rock; the stage is
here, the play is conceived; the players are
not found.

I saw on the Sierras, up the Kaweah valley above the
Moro rock, the mountain redwoods
Like red towers on the slopes of snow; about their
bases grew a bushery of Christmas green,
Firs and pines to be monuments for pilgrimage
In Europe; I remembered the Swiss forests, the dark
robes of Pilatus, no trunk like these there;
But these are underwood; they are only a shrubbery
about the boles of the trees.

Our people are clever and masterful;
They have powers in the mass, they accomplish marvels.
It is possible Time will make them before it
annuls them, but at present
There is not one memorable person, there is not one
mind to stand with the trees, one life with
the mountains.