Anything, everything & more........................

DM · Post by DM » Wed Mar 10, 2004 11:46 pm

There are so many different types of people in the world, all with different experiences. Some people have been good-natured all their lives. Some people have been unpleasant throughout their lives. Some are even generally good-natured yet have done a few unpleasant things and some are generally unpleasant and have tip-toed in being good.
All these different types of people are always around us, all the time. You never know who your talking to - what they are thinking - what they have just done. Maybe this person just gave away a million dollars to a charity.

No matter what, people are always good. I dont think there is any natural evil out there. Some things are learned and they can become habit. So we have people doing evil things, but, these people are not naturally evil. So, we shouldn't judge them. Tough. real tough. We are surrounded by so many different ideas, theories, beliefs...and..most importantly....our beliefs. The ones we have inside our head. Our world. Our principles, our morals, our internal guidance system. Man, we all have this thinG. Huge. Our worlds are enormous. They are so solid. Every idea leads somewhere. We have defined ourselves and we can explain why we think the way we do - about anything. So, whenever we see something that goes into our mind-deposit we have an urgent need to express our worlds ideas about that subject. We come up with counter-ideas, alternative expressions, different views - and, we have expressed ourselves.
When we do that though, we cannot forget that any of us, can be anywhere right now. Could have been born into a different life. Our parents could have been different. Our social rules could have been different So many factors contribute to who and where we are now. All of them, very uncontrollable.
Looking at people, ALL PEOPLE, from this perspective, allows us to hold back the reins on judging. Whether we do it queitly within ourselves or out loud.

Chai Guy · Post by **Chai Guy** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 12:43 pm

How do you tell someone that all beings on this planet are not beautiful or worthy of our time? No matter how much love and care and sunshine you give bad seed it is still gonna come up a weed. All you do by cultivating it is make it stronger and much harder to uproot when you finally see it for what it truly is. Tend your garden my friend; that weed has to go.

DM · Post by DM » Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:15 pm

Thats a rough stance. I know this is difficult. It is being asked to not judge even the most vile perpetrators. But this place needs that immense amount of understanding. What if you did not have the experiences that led you to where you are now? Maybe you would be dramatically different. Less aware, less enlightened and so on. You would not know what you do not know.
Should we treat you the same way you ask to treat others?

Not knowing something is not grounds for judgement.
Even then, the one who knows and still acts "bad" needs room for further understanding.

Obviously we still have to function as a society, so laws and rules still must be kept in place.

I am just talking about the most ideal expression of understanding. Things still need to move forward, but this understanding is a must. It should be inherently inside of us. It is such an infantile concept that we dont even know what it could turn into.

Who knows what understanding turns into once applied.

Remember - Wheel - Buggy - Carriage - Motor-car - Race-car...things develop over time and they evolve. This item should receive the same treatment.

Question - The weed has to go you said....where to and how? What do you propose my friend?

Tancorix · Post by **Tancorix** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:33 pm

Shameless Plug:
An Open Heart: Practicing Compassion in Everyday Life
By the Dalai Lama. I highly recommend it and considering the path this thread has taken, it fits in nicely.

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:43 pm

DM wrote: No matter what, people are always good. I dont think there is any natural evil out there. Some things are learned and they can become habit. So we have people doing evil things, but, these people are not naturally evil. So, we shouldn't judge them. Tough. real tough.

You know something, I posted something up here yesterday and decided to take it down because I didn't want to cause any flack like I usually do when I post the truth. and I still don't want to cause any flack. (and to those that say so don't post anything.......too bad.)

I understand that you may find this hard to believe but on this planet some people are born just BAD. REAL BAD and that's just the way it is.

What's my point?

My point is to just let as many people that believe that there are BAD PEOPLE that have an ounce of good in them know that ,YES THERE ARE VERY BAD PEOPLE IN THIS WORLD. they really have no other reason or purpose on this planet other than to make miserable things happen to everything they are around. Sometimes there just is no explanation for what they do. I know first hand this to be true.

I sort of feel sorry for you in a way. As far as I can see, you just may be living in a state of denial. Some people are born with that flaw too. One thing is for sure though, you are right when you say there are many types of people. I just gave 2 examples and now a 3rd. I face reality head on, or see the world as I see it weather anyone agrees with me or not. I'm going to be me. Nothing can really change that. Nothing will change most people, but that's really what the world is all about. Individuality, in all it's good bad and ugly.

Please dont missunderstand me, I'm not trying to make you or anyone feel miserable, however, after all this is a message board for posting messages and this is the message I am posting to you and whomever wants to accept it.

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:46 pm

Question - The weed has to go you said....where to and how? What do you propose my friend?

into the chipper shredder
but first make sure you get the root ball so it don't grow back

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:53 pm

No matter what, people are always good. I dont think there is any natural evil out there.

Sweet sentiment but I'd argue it's naive and almost painfully simplistic.

I'm wondering what kind of people do shit like this.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/11/inter ... -TRAI.html

Maybe they were just having a bad day and forgot their inner, inherent goodness.

Scuse' me if I don't for a second buy into your Pollyanna view of the world. We live among evil people just as we live among the birds, fish and beasts.

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 2:08 pm

DM wrote: What if you did not have the experiences that led you to where you are now? Maybe you would be dramatically different. Less aware, less enlightened and so on. You would not know what you do not know.

Dood you seem to have taken a shortcut to enlightenment. Please whatch this lesson and learn. never take this route.

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 2:10 pm

BTW I wrote that , the music and did the video 12 years ago. it still rings true.

LeChatNoir · Post by **LeChatNoir** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 6:45 pm

Oh man...

What a thorny issue... but being as I love honest discourse, I guess I’m gonna jump right in.

On the simplest level, I agree with what DM is saying. I believe that no person is born evil. Born into evil, maybe yes... but not born evil. A newborn baby is the epitome of innocence. Let me give you a quote:

“There is an old Chinese belief that when a baby begins to smile he is becoming a person. That smile is telling for it reveals a sense of self and a feeling of well-being and intactness.”

-Geza Roheim The Panic of the Gods

I do believe that there is a time when a child shifts from total innocence and is immersed in the world around it which can sway in many directions... when the child starts to “become a person”. If it is born into a home that lacks respect of life, is full of ignorance and devoid of Love, it is very likely that the child will grow up the same.

Badger... your example of pain and hurt (which seems all to common anymore) is a tough one to face. My brother tells me that I have a true sense of empathy and that it is a blessing. Sometimes I feel it’s a curse. I can get so torn up over the pain of others that it will cause me harm if I let it. I have to be able to shift in and out of different perspectives. I often dwell (as often as I can) in a simple state that can be summed up by saying I love everybody and everything. Not being hokey... I genuinely mean this. But sometimes I must shift into an analytical frame of mind to process and deal with all of the situations I face everyday. And every situation is multifaceted, nothing is cut and dried. Yet I can still step back in the evening, light a candle and see the world as one beautiful, synchronous work of art. I tune into the good vibes... this is my refuge. Cultivating this ability has been vital to my own survival. The trick is learning when to look from one angle and when to look from another. My life is a constant balancing act of perspectives. I wish to help others, yet not get used. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. The people in that article who caused such hurt have become twisted, they did not start out that way. There was a time when they did not know how to hate or hurt another, even if only for a fleeting moment before the “virus” was introduced.

But someone cries “We need revenge for those who have died!”. Do you? I put forth that we need justice and a call to personal and group responsibility (on all sides). But revenge is the method of replication this virus uses and depends on. It is a matter of personal choice: Do you scratch the boil and keep it spreading or do you endure through the instinctive reaction, step back to refocus and maybe stop the cycle of violence?

DVD burner... I watched your video (and at my 28.8k connection, downloading was an exercise in patience). Thank you for making it, that was a nice piece of work and there is truth in what it said to me. Yes... there are people on this earth that seem to have no other reason for existing than to use, hurt and kill others. I’ve met my share. Are they too far gone to help? A whole lot of them probably are and that is sad to see. What do we do about it? Jeez... I don’t have any answer on how to cure the sick, evil people of the world. Sometimes my instinct is to say, “wipe them away and start with a clean slate”. But ultimately I can only sheild myself from such people as best I can. (BTW I think the word “evil” is overused these days and no longer carries the weight it should).

What I do know is this:

I must live my life so as to show those who have not slipped too far, that there is joy in simply being good. I will not willingly be the one to shove them on into the abyss. We as humans too often live our lives trying to convince others to do what we think they should do. Letting go of this desire and accepting people for who they are was the first step to lightening my own load, be those people good, bad, or otherwise. I accept them and act accordingly with respect (whether they extend it to me or not). The only thing I really have control over is my own actions (and reactions). Beyond that is futile. If I have the choice, I will take the path of nonviolence... I must. Violence is an absolute last resort for me and so shall it remain. I’ve been in situations that I would not wish upon anyone and I’m glad forever more that I chose to turn and walk away instead of seeking revenge. I have forgiven and moved on. You can’t live a healthy life at either end of the spectrum (oblivious to pain or obsessed with it). Life is a tradeoff... a constant balancing act. Love all beings, accept them for what they are, give of yourself, but don’t let yourself be used. Enlightenment comes only from within. You must first and foremost Love yourself, then Love for others will come easily. Wish good to all, be careful, and keep moving down your path.

I apologize for such a long post, but I will return the favor in kind. If I have offended anyone, please know it was not my intention.

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 7:01 pm

good people have bad kids
bad people have good kids
it happens all the time

LeChatNoir · Post by **LeChatNoir** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 7:05 pm

True...

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 9:38 pm

stuart always gets it.

ramen · Post by **ramen** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:38 pm

My definition of good: what increases my health, wellbeing, security, prosperity, procreation, and status.

My definition of bad: whatever interferes with any of the above.

I think that is true for all people. We define good and bad in ethical and moral terms in order to enforce group behavioral norms on individuals.

Evil people are those that want to do us great harm.

Are criminals innately good or evil? They choose to defy group norms and cause harm to others in order to fulfill their own needs, so sure they are morally and ethically wrong.

Are terrorists evil? Not in their own heads. Their software tells them they are going to Heaven. Are they evil to me? Yes, they wish me great harm.

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:45 pm

The trick is learning when to look from one angle and when to look from another. My life is a constant balancing act of perspectives.

It's called equanimity and there's not enough of it in the world.

Your perspective(s) and view of things are examples of an ideal which I believe in our collective heart-of hearts we all pretty much aspire to. Having said that, the original idea that everyone is good might carry some credibilty as far as this writer goes but, as Stuart notes, might the inherent goodness and innocence that we're all born into has a nasty habit of transcending into the realm of true, ultimate evil of the grossest sort.

The path to goodness is littered with the filthy deeds of those whose acts stain our species with their wake of pain, suffering and carnage.

There's no way around this truth IMO.

Evil is as evil does.

Wind_Borne · Post by **Wind_Borne** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 2:16 am

No matter what, people are always good.

Careful, my friend.

When I was a teenager the mother of my girlfriend told me that she worried about me because I had such an optimistic belief in people -- and this from a woman known for her gentleness and piety! I told her, "Don't worry, Mrs. T, I'm tough!" Well, maybe not quite tough enough. More than once I've been blind-sided by someone I thought was a friend.

The good news is that most people are at least decent, if not courageously good. The sad news is, some are not. Just as one may be blind or deaf, some people suffer from a failure of empathy. That's a recognized psychological impairment. And a person without empathy is capable of horrendous things. Those of us with empathy may feel for such a poor wretch; but we must also be wary of them.

All-in-all, I prefer having an optimistic view of human nature. An occassional mis-step ain't going keep me from dancing!

LeChatNoir · Post by **LeChatNoir** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 6:07 am

but, as Stuart notes, might the inherent goodness and innocence that we're all born into has a nasty habit of transcending into the realm of true, ultimate evil of the grossest sort.

Yes... it would seem to certainly have a nasty habit of doing so all to often... and sometimes seemingly at random. I can think of some folks who I would swear had no conscience. Were they born this way? Product of their evironment? Don't know, I hadn't crossed their path at that time. But I certainly won't cross their path again of my own will.

Windborne... I second your advice to DM about being cautious. I tried to touch on that, but don't know if I was successful. I've had my share of being burned by my knidness, but I'm who has to live with myself and I like being able to sleep at night. I'll take an occasional burn over being a heartless bastard anyday. I just try to listen to my gut and keep those burns to a minimum... try to be optimistic with a logical streak, I guess.

I don’t think there is any natural evil out there

I gotta say DM... I wish I could agree with you on this one, but I've looked some pretty nasty stuff in the eyes and, let me tell you... They may have started out in goodness, but all that was left was black and rotten. The greater sense of empathy you have, the more care with which you should place each of your steps.

All-in-all, I prefer having an optimistic view of human nature. An occassional mis-step ain't going keep me from dancing!

Hey brother... right on.

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 10:55 am

They choose to defy group norms and cause harm to others

not all criminals are causing harm.
defying group norms is also not inherrantly harmful.
i find the correlation between crime rates and unemplyment rates to be a very telling statistic as well.

I don't think all criminals are evil.
I find, however, that some law abiding citizens truly are.

Wind_Borne · Post by **Wind_Borne** » Sat Mar 13, 2004 2:27 am

Politics and religion.

I say get rid of them both.

Woulda, shoulda, coulda!

Actually, given that 6 billion of us have to share this planet, I suspect politics is here to stay. And that same 6 billion wonder what life is about; so religion (or at least spirituality) is here to stay, too.

Fighting over politics may seem pointless to you. But to a Burmese refugee living in a camp on the Thai border things you may take for granted seem rather precious -- and worth demanding!

It is obviously criminal to force a religion on someone (e.g., Taliban). But any noble person would fight to practice her own faith as she understood it.

If you asked a couple dozen people walking along the street in San Francisco, I have little doubt that you would find one whose family has suffered real politcal or religious tyranny. Count yourself well blessed if yours has not.

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Sat Mar 13, 2004 2:29 am

Badger wrote:
No matter what, people are always good. I dont think there is any natural evil out there.
Sweet sentiment but I'd argue it's naive and almost painfully simplistic.

I'm wondering what kind of people do shit like this.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/11/inter ... -TRAI.html

Maybe they were just having a bad day and forgot their inner, inherent goodness.

Scuse' me if I don't for a second buy into your Pollyanna view of the world. We live among evil people just as we live among the birds, fish and beasts.

When it comes to evil people these people are no diffrent than these people.
I believe that the only way to a better world is to understand the variables we deal with. Most may argue with me and say there is no validity to whom I accuse has created the disturbance we all have to live with these days, however, the situations that are happening today have consistently been done before with the same players involved for generations, with the same elements as templets.

Politics and religion.

I say get rid of them both. The most evil and violent acts since the beginning of time has been created from these 2 elements.
The sooner man grows out of these restraints the sooner man can move on to bigger and better things. After all there is a universe out there.

IMHO.

Even though I cant help to admire those who have the ability to manipulate the masses and have them follow the leader to the death.
has somewhat of a romantic taste to it.

Wind_Borne · Post by **Wind_Borne** » Sat Mar 13, 2004 2:42 am

Hmm... I seem to be able to respond to DVD Burner's posts in advance!

Curiouser and curiouser.

Note to Self: Remember not to use magic outside of Hogwarts!

LeChatNoir · Post by **LeChatNoir** » Sat Mar 13, 2004 6:31 am

Politics and religion.

I say get rid of them both. The most evil and violent acts since the beginning of time has been created from these 2 elements.

But they won’t go away. And neither will the lust for money, material possessions, and power that are often rooted in them (and cause very acts you speak of). Not to mention that some damn fine people have done some mighty good works in the name of both these instituations. Again, the only thing you can control is your own actions... so how are you going to live this day that you have?

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Sat Mar 13, 2004 9:50 pm

LaChatNoir wrote:But they won’t go away. And neither will the lust for money, material possessions, and power that are often rooted in them (and cause very acts you speak of). Not to mention that some damn fine people have done some mighty good works in the name of both these instituations. Again, the only thing you can control is your own actions... so how are you going to live this day that you have?

it's nice to imagine. sounds better in a song.

Well one thing is for sure, seems Spain and the rest of the world is smarter than most of the Americans. They can smell and know a rat a mile away.
Smells like something Kissinger, Bush sr. Nixon and Prescott Bush have done before many times. Especially Kissinger, He's wanted in Spain. No conspiracy therory. These are facts.

Anyhoo,

I would suggest just being patient and wait till after the election in November once the new electronic,paperless voting machines that have already been placed in 15 counties thoughout Florida and other places around the united states come back with faulty results again. things should get rather unruly.

Also party very hard at BM this year.

hope the author of this thread has'nt gotten discoraged by the posts given fourth.

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Sat Mar 13, 2004 9:56 pm

Actually, given that 6 billion of us have to share this planet, I suspect politics is here to stay. And that same 6 billion wonder what life is about; so religion (or at least spirituality) is here to stay, too.

Hey Wind_Borne,

Here's something to wrap your head around. THINK is quite an interesting journal and one of my favorite bookmarks. Have a look at the linek. I'm interested in your take.

http://www.royalinstitutephilosophy.org ... php?num=20[/quote]

DM · Post by DM » Sat Mar 13, 2004 10:37 pm

Its not about giving people blind-trust and looking at them as if they will never screw you, and then they do and your pissed. Its about accepting what they are, where they come from etc….Take all necessary precautions you need for someone who has unpleasant tendencies.

*When you look that liar in the eye & you see that they don't understand...That's! What we should understand*

Once we do that, everything changes. The way you see the world, the way you speak - everything.

A difficult task is to just be. Black Cat mentioned the word Used - but in a clear sense, that is not happening. You are still being you and that is most important. What others do or react to while you are being you (who cares) you be you. Using your head does apply in all situations.

Definitions of good don’t exist. But, we do all know that we do not want to commit murder, right! So, without knowing any social rules or “norms”…all of us know, we do not want to commit murder. Tapping into that simple way of thinking, undefined by society and civilization, allows us to see what we are talking about. Use that internal mental gauge to judge.

My definition of natural evil is a baby born with horns in its head. It simply doesn’t happen.
Whenever we get to whatever place we call good, what are we really doing? Stripping away the unpleasant luggage we have been carrying around. We are getting more and more naked, hence more and more natural. This is how we begin our lives.

Black Cats first comment summed up everything perfectly.

When I get to a faster connection I will check out the movie.

depros · Post by **depros** » Sun Mar 14, 2004 12:29 am

I hear what you all are saying. I don't know what the answer may be. Badger, I agree with you in that people really are good, in essence. People, for some reason, have acquired consciousness and the ability to stray away from our natural instincts and use our learned social instincts. Human beings are not perfect and are inclined to make mistakes. How we learn to socialize is therefore flawed in some way. Evil, in my opinion, does exist in some form or another. I do think that most people have had a pretty decent education on how to interact with others in a relatively good way. With all things, there are always extremes. The far end could very well be considered evil in some sense. In my eyes there is some kind of evil in this world. Nefarious acts created by humans, that any reasonable person can see that the acts are wrong and have dire consequences. It certainly is a matter of perception, but there is shit that goes on in this world that is simply unbelievable. Shit that has zero good associated with it. Decisions can be good or evil and I tend to believe that how you act is what you are. Does pure evil exist? I don't know. But some kind of evil exists out there.

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Sun Mar 14, 2004 3:32 am

DVD Burner wrote:
Wind_Borne wrote:Hmm... I seem to be able to respond to DVD Burner's posts in advance!

Curiouser and curiouser.

Note to Self: Remember not to use magic outside of Hogwarts!

hey,

that was pretty good. How'd you do that. Took me awhile to figure out what you were talking about.

it was my bad though. part of the new edit feature. I tend to use it a lot, then things get a little ahead of me. I'm still in sync though. my writing style still has'nt improved but my sync is ok.

or maybe it's your wiseness and magic outside of Hogwarts.

oh,

and I just remembered what the other point was I wanted to make.

America IMHO would be better off with an artist/writer/musician as President. not an actor or rapper.(since all I can do is imagine anyway.) whatta ya think.

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Sun Mar 14, 2004 5:07 am

very nice Zephryus, glad you bit.

Your or anyones opinion about this;

how about an engineer? do you feel the same way?

Zephryus · Post by **Zephryus** » Sun Mar 14, 2004 5:07 am

[rant]
America would be better off with a politician as president. Someone who knows how large groups of people work and how to take several differing sides of an argument (one of which is his) and bridge them together with a compromise that, while not completely pleasing to anyone, benefits all in the long run. Our current president is not, in my crazed opinion (IMCO), a good politician; he seems unable to differentiate between his needs and those of his constituents. In fact, (sticking my neck out farther in front of the axe), I would argue that modern federal American politics are not good politics. The current dominant attiitude is winner take all and screw the loser, and that's no way to live together.
But I digress. Performing artists of any stripe are generally charismatic and people-oriented, but they have a whole host of skills that are useless in politics, and their respective professions don't demand that they learn certain skills that are absolutely critical to good politics. I didn't vote against Shwartzenegger because I didn't like his politics or the company he keeps, I voted against him because I thought he was fundamentally unqualified for the job. I still hold that opinion.
[/rant][/i]

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Sun Mar 14, 2004 5:44 am

Hmmm,

This seems to be another new flaw. I've done a Wind Borne.
I seem to have responded to Zephryus posts in advance also!

have I used the magic outside of Hogwarts too?

I did'nt do anything special this time.
Is the php being worked on? could this be a result of that?

Anything, everything & more........................

Anything, everything & more........................

Re: Anything, everything & more........................