RV's on the increase calls for some creative thinking...

[Captain Goddammit]

I will be tenting, portable garage shelter, and yes a generator, more than likely, to keep the drinks cold.

Generators are great, if they're quiet ones, but here's a suggestion: Get a propane fridge from a camper that's being parted out. They are silent, work GREAT, and use almost no propane.
I've brought electric fridges and it's a pain having to keep the AC power on 27/7, especially in the dusty conditions that are horrible for your genny.

And as for the discussion: Every year some tenter whines about the RVs in BRC. No one in an RV whines about how raggedy and refugee-shelter all the tents look. More and more people every year are ditching the rag-huts for RVs that withstand dust and wind way better.
Keep whining, but the tide is turning, away from you!

The city being expanded because of how big the RVs are is a huge crock of shit. Your car/truck/van/whatever plus your tent is at least as much total square footage on the ground as an RV, often MORE.
Lets see... 16 - 17 feet or so for your vehicle, plus a 10x20 carport... that's 37 feet long right there...

[crstophr]

This was my virgin year and I brought a travel trailer. I camped with a few folks in another RV and several in tents.

We stretched a tarp between the two of them for some excellent shade. The RVs provided a great wind block and shade for the tents. Our covered shaded area was open to the street and we had plenty of people stop by to chat or have a beer.

It's all how you set up your camp. You can be as open or closed as you like depending on how you arrange the vehicles. Social or anti social really has nothing to do with the shelter you're sleeping in. I thought I would need a private space I could retreat into if I was overwhelmed, but it turns out I didn't really need it.

Think for a second about how an RV is positioned relative to the prevailing wind. We want to park with our door downwind and that may have a lot to do with how you see them being positioned.

I'm bringing my trailer back every year and you're all welcome to come hang out in it when the dust blows in.

--Chris

[pignome]

Thank all for your comments and Rants.

Really like the idea of magnetic art on the RV's
And I would love to eat otter-pops on the inner RV kingdoms...

Maybe there is a way to make a more welcoming path?

ALSO I DONT WANT ANYONE TO ENFORCE SHIT.

I would just love for these newbies to consider what they are bringing to B.M.

This year was a screaming cry for some new ideas.

So talk about it and make next year an EVOLUTION.


Keep Thinking. Keep talking. And Keep Evolving.

[EB]

Thank you, Pignome.

At first I thought the plan of bringing in a motivational speaker to the e-playa was silly but you've clearly proven your worth.

Team!

[couglite]

[quote="Captain Goddammit"]

Generators are great, if they're quiet ones, but here's a suggestion: Get a propane fridge from a camper that's being parted out. They are silent, work GREAT, and use almost no propane.
I've brought electric fridges and it's a pain having to keep the AC power on 27/7, especially in the dusty conditions that are horrible for your genny.
[/quote]

good plan on the propane fridge - I just bought an ancient propane powered van as my burnmobile after rethinking the genny thing - the thought of it being on all night bummed me out - might block out Rock Lobster and I wouldn't want to do that.

My whole purpose of downgrading from an rv was to be a bit more in touch with the project, and a 24/7 generator seems to defeat my purpose a bit. I can see making best friends with some rv neighbours, though... If they have circled the wagons, I will just have to walk into their circle and say hey, how about some bacon...

[Captain Goddammit]

A little more on propane fridges: they're alarmingly expensive, but you can always scrape up a deal on one from an old camper... but test it before you buy!
If it smells strongly of ammonia, forget it, it's done and repair from that point usually isn't cost-effective.
If it doesn't smell of leaking ammonia, the flame lights, and it doesn't get cold, beat on the tubes on the back of it with a block of wood. That shakes loose the crystals that tend to form and clog it when it sits unused for a while. This almost always revives them.
It needs to be almost perfectly level to work right.
If you're taking one out of a camper to use it free-standing, remember to get the propane pressure regulator from a camper too, and put it between the gas bottle and the fridge.
For the most part, they are reliable and get very cold. Find a nice big one!

[couglite]

thank you muchly - you are invited for a cold beer. How are you with tuning up 1978 Ford Econoline propane vans? Feel like a trip to Vancouver Island?

[geekster]

We didn't have any RVs in camp this year but have in the past. We generally set them up as windbreaks for the tent campers that make up the majority of our people. They go on the South or West side depending on our placement. I agree with the Captain about the propane fridge. Quiet and effective if you can find one that the ammonia hasn't leaked from. We do have a camper trailer we use as camp storage in Empire that we bring out there and the fridge in that camper is most useful pre-event before ice is being sold.

The camper and any RVs in camp are also designated as a hard-sided refuge in case the wind really comes up strong and burn barrels, plywood, and other debris starts flying around. Should we get a really major blow, those RVs are a welcome place of relative safety from flying debris.

[Apollonaris Zeus]

I will be tenting, portable garage shelter, and yes a generator, more than likely, to keep the drinks cold.

Generators are great, if they're quiet ones, but here's a suggestion: Get a propane fridge from a camper that's being parted out. They are silent, work GREAT, and use almost no propane.
I've brought electric fridges and it's a pain having to keep the AC power on 27/7, especially in the dusty conditions that are horrible for your genny.

And as for the discussion: Every year some tenter whines about the RVs in BRC. No one in an RV whines about how raggedy and refugee-shelter all the tents look. More and more people every year are ditching the rag-huts for RVs that withstand dust and wind way better.
Keep whining, but the tide is turning, away from you!

The city being expanded because of how big the RVs are is a huge crock of shit. Your car/truck/van/whatever plus your tent is at least as much total square footage on the ground as an RV, often MORE.
Lets see... 16 - 17 feet or so for your vehicle, plus a 10x20 carport... that's 37 feet long right there...

You fail to include the 60' long bus campers

[Captain Goddammit]

You fail to include the 60' long bus campers

Get yourself a tape measure.
There are NO 60' long busses, except for the articulated busses... NONE of which I've ever seen at BM except two that were playa mutant vehicles, not campers.
Busses only go to 40', with some very rare stretched 45 footers... none of which I've ever seen at BM.

[wedeliver]

You fail to include the 60' long bus campers

Get yourself a tape measure.
There are NO 60' long busses, except for the articulated busses... NONE of which I've ever seen at BM except two that were playa mutant vehicles, not campers.
Busses only go to 40', with some very rare stretched 45 footers... none of which I've ever seen at BM.

We pulled in driving a 34' motor home towing a 31' travel trailer. And I couldn't make tight turns because the motor home ladder would hit the front of the trailer...

[Captain Goddammit]

Well yeah, whaddya expect from a guy who owns a trailer park!!!

[Toolmaker]

That line of RV's stands out in my mind also. I saw those and the huge gennie, and water tank behind them, with a few MBenz suv's parked in front. I also noticed how they all had the same carpet/mat infront of their steps, and where the same brand/size of RV. I thought it must be some kind of promotional thing. "hey buy this product/serivce for your company and we'll set you up at BurningMan." That was my first thought.

Is this the company that offered RVs for rent delivered to the playa? I think I saw this setup.. commerce=radical self reliance in action. I think they had pvt porta potties too.

If you park your RV back or forward facing the street, there is still interactivity possible, the exhaust from the generator comes out the side and you can vent that with dryer hose. What I found ugly was the line of huge class A rv's on the street leading up to the grand hotel. I think it was between 730 and 8 and E or F. About 5 huge class A's parked end to end, creating a huge wall of RV, right up on the street, no interactivity, no esthetic appeal, just a large Kohler generator on the corner and a 150 foot wall of RVs, not painted, decorated or anything. I guess it was in keeping with the American Dream theme (I have mine, you are not welcome) but it was very very ugly and not interactive in any way. Especially when contrasted with the miracle of giving and beauty that was the grand hotel!

And what did you see on the inside?

It's amazing the assumptions people make.

I didn't get to see inside. The look of the area had that "private keep out" feel to it. I continued on to the more welcoming campsites. Come to think of it I didn't even notice a way in.. they must have had an entrance on the side street I didn't go on.

And as for the discussion: Every year some tenter whines about the RVs in BRC. No one in an RV whines about how raggedy and refugee-shelter all the tents look. More and more people every year are ditching the rag-huts for RVs that withstand dust and wind way better.
Keep whining, but the tide is turning, away from you!

The city being expanded because of how big the RVs are is a huge crock of shit. Your car/truck/van/whatever plus your tent is at least as much total square footage on the ground as an RV, often MORE.
Lets see... 16 - 17 feet or so for your vehicle, plus a 10x20 carport... that's 37 feet long right there...

I agree.. I saw many tent campers takin up just as much real esate as an RV, in many cases MORE space. Personally I prefer modded buses to RVs. The only reason I don't have an RV is cuz I can't afford one. Nothing is more welcome during an Alpha style event than an enclosed RV to avoid the brutality of an Alpha dustout.

The camper and any RVs in camp are also designated as a hard-sided refuge in case the wind really comes up strong and burn barrels, plywood, and other debris starts flying around. Should we get a really major blow, those RVs are a welcome place of relative safety from flying debris.

Another good reason to have large vehicles about. For a tent camper its awfully nice to have a windbreak, a nice wheel to tie the tent to, and a small measure of protection from the elements.



BM is a do-ocracy.. nothing is stopping anyone from doing something like Hushville and going themecamp or village. Anyone os more than welcome to have an RV free zone if they do the legwork.

Previously I mentioned an art car zone where art cars could be parked away from the city streets to be appreciaited by participants since they were not 'mutant" enough to be licensed. Maybe a suburb for the rich RV folks could be considered. A gate could be erected with security like the developments/gated communities to help keep the riffraff out.

[Cywren]

Judging from earlier posts in this subject, you may find this amusing...

I was camping at 7:30 & B at Dr. Le Taudries Freak Show, next to Camp Inspiratum and ManyFest Destiny, we were RIGHT ACROSS from the aforementioned closed off RV circle with the giant Kholer generator. Yep, we all thought this was pretty lame, but all the other neighbors kicked ass this year so no big deal.
Anyway...As I was walking near the Giant generator late Saturday night I noticed a award sign with a blue ribbon someone posted on the lower left corner of the thing. It said: "Awarded Best Use of Corner Frontage, by the BRC Beautiful Homes and Garden Association."
I nearly died laughing...

[ygmir]

well.....
the trailer complex was quite close to "Fuck camp".........with it's dome and sex toys............
Perhaps linked?
PPPPUURRRRHHHHHAAAAAPPPPPPSSSSSSSS

[couglite]

Absolutely no offense taken Col.Monk - I totally agree with you! The rv, while welcome, did take away from my pride in survival skills. While I was rarely in the rv throughout the week, just knowing it was there as a refuge likely changed my outlook. I wish I had the gumption to go whole hog and suck it up for my virgin year. When I had originally planned to go, I was just going to pack up my Geo Metro with my pup tent and hit it, but then I started researching and got scared and laid out the big bucks. But lesson learned! I will relish all dust, wind, rain, heat, cold and portapotties in 2009, and any friends who join us will get a lecture in tent vs rv.

The generator idea has been nixed - my son said, "not burner enough" ah the wisdom of children! - instead we will invest in a solar panel to run some christmas lights and stick with the ice and a good cooler. I am not giving up my futon though! I have a friend coming next year for the first time who was going to rent an rv and I think we have managed to convince him not to - the money spent on a rental and gas could totally kit you out for years to come!

I so miss the dust and wind now, I was running my shop vac in reverse, just to get a little taste.

[Rev_Sysyphus]

We pulled in driving a 34' motor home towing a 31' travel trailer. And I couldn't make tight turns because the motor home ladder would hit the front of the trailer...

Sweet! Can I camp with you guys next year? This year my camp built a big orange castle with a carport for shade and when it was all setup the chill space was cool, but our living spaces were plain old tents and we burned the castle so it is no more. 34' MH and a 31' trailer? I wanna camp with you guys!

Seriously, next time I go I am going to try to join one of the larger camps that takes folks from all over like PolyParadise, Terminal City, Arconauts, etc.

[Captain Goddammit]

Well now wait a minute...
"A generator just for keeping drinks cold? Not radical at all, just pathetic. What's wrong with Ice-Cold Beer from your cooler? There is ice available, you know?"
Ya know, that ice that you have to stand in long lines for is also being kept with generators on the refer trailers... I'd say having your own is MORE radically self-reliant than depending on vendors, not "pathetic".
I also don't think you can make the generalization that people who show up in nice RVs aren't real burners. Doc Pyro of Barbie Death Camp is as real a burner as any, and hosts the eplaya meet & greet, and shows up in such a rig... as do many others... hell, even Larry himself does the RV thing and not the tent thing. I guess Mr. Harvey isn't a real burner?

I don't know why I'm wasting my time replying to this; every year it's the same thing. Guys who show up in tents spewing bullshit about how people who bring RVs aren't as real burners as they are.
Who cares how much one participates, how much art they bring, what theme camps they build, what service they provide... if they bring an RV they're spectators. If they do nothing but sit around and drink beer, but live in a tent, well by god they're REAL burners. Whatever.

Hey, the First Mate Goddammit just brought up another great point. Burning Man originally happened on a BEACH, where there was no dust. It only got moved to the dusty playa when the cops wouldn't allow the big fire at the beach anymore. Dust or excessive heat was never an integral part of it.

[mars]

I feel good about how we use our rv. We have a propane fridge, so we don't need to use the generator. We painted the entire rv (we meaning my bf, but it was my idea!) so that it looks pretty on the street and makes a great background for our in-camp photos.

We use the bathroom sparingly during the week so that from burn day on we can let our entire camp use it.

We run the generator one time during the week for 2 hrs. During that time, we invite anyone who is around to come inside and hang out...if it's hot out we serve frozen goods, like ice cream, and if it's cold out, we use the microwave and oven to make hot goodies. Other than that we don't use the generator at all. We try to time it for when there aren't many people around, and, if there are, we tell them our time frame and when it will be quiet again.

We transport friends' bikes and large camp items like shade structures and long PVC's. We carry the camp rebar. We caravan with a bunch of cars, so sometimes we carry other peoples' water.

At the event, we spend very little time in the rv. Mostly just to sleep and change clothes.

I really don't see how this in any way ruins burning man and I think problems with rv's are divided into two areas between purely negative judgments on the part of the observer and asshole rv owners that would somehow find ways to be jerks or anti-social even if they were in cars or tents.

[wedeliver]

We hand out popsicle's that we keep frozin' in our RV freezer. Ummm, so good on a hot August, Sept day in BRC.

[Captain Goddammit]

I'm not making judgements that those with RVs are not real burners. Did I actually say that? No, I definately did not say that.

Just sayin' that the over-abundance of rented RVs make it look like there are alot of "one-timers" coming out to see what them weirdos are doin' in the desert. And the rental RVs make that possible, as most wouldn't go thru the effort was an RV not a possibility...

You're sayin' it loud and clear.
It's so much simpler than the BS you're making up. In a hot, windy, dusty desert, tents suck to live in and RVs work very well. That's all there is to it, and the people who have figured that out are every bit as high-effort, art-producing real burners as you are.
Maybe you should list a bunch of your favorite art pieces this year, the things that impressed you the most, and we should research whether the creators lived in a tent or not.

[princesspisces]

This year was my first year. I really enjoyed having a tent, even sleeping in playa dust that infiltrated my tent.

I loved it so much, I will be doing it all over again in about 350 some odd days.

[Dustdevil]

The original poster said nothing about rented RV's.

[motskyroonmatick]

If you don't bring anything to the event you.. YOU! should not be in a rented RV!
Should someone have credentials to rent and bring an RV to the event? IMHO without first timers the event would be sunk. Be they in RV or tenting it as they should!!

Ok. I'll be buying mine.

More RVs on the playa is due to evolution. There is nothing that can be done to stop this force except a change in the environment (rules). A RV is a quick, practical and convenient way to set up camp. Pretty hard to beat especially for first timers and those with limited camping skill.
We all do what we can and what we can afford. If I had my way I would show up in an 18 wheeler with one mother fucker of a custom made RV contained by the two trailers I would be pulling. I'm not there yet.

[Captain Goddammit]

Dammit, Capt GodDammit, you're just intent on being mad at me aren't you?

Not at all! I just think you're saying stuff that ain't so, that's all.
Hell, if I could afford it I'd have a pre-fab home set up on the playa for the week!
I wouldn't have much issue with a requirement to conceal all the rental company logos on the rented rigs, but it's not really fair or correct to assume that people who bring RVs are newbies or in some way less participatory than people who rough it. They just get fancier about their accommodations, that's all.

[Toolmaker]

Hell, if I could afford it I'd have a pre-fab home set up on the playa for the week!

Something like this?

[mars]

Maybe one of the RV complainers could write a little booklet...How to Get the Most out of Burning Man While Living in an RV.

Actually, on second thought, perhaps it should be written by an RV'er.

[Cassidy]

Hopefully in keeping with the thread topic, I have a suggestion for camps with many RVs. If they have multiple coaches why not park them so that each pair is end to end with generators in between? For instance, have two of them park with their butt-ends together (where the generators are) and the next two park the same way. Then, the noise will be a bit more contained, right? Also, they could park back from the street a bit and throw out a nice shade structure for passer-bys. It wouldn't even have to be manned, just some nice shade for the community. That might also help break up the view of the "wall of metal".

My first year (last year) I rented an RV. This year I camped in a tent (within a theme camp). I wish I had done it the other way around, only because this year was more dusty. I'm glad I did both and got to "rough it" as well as have a refuge and a place to retreat when necessary (in the RV). Next year, I'm bringing a short bus (gutted schoolbus) which I see as the best of both worlds. Not as luxurious as an RV and not as open to the elements as a tent but more sheltered with a great view out the windows and door (and back). It's costing me the same to buy it as it did to rent the RV, and it will get better gas mileage. I guarantee it won't look like an RV and I can get WAY more creative with it in many ways. I also have quite a few sustainable enhancements in mind. I look forward to that challenge!!

Ok, one more thing: in my opinion, there did seem to be a larger amount of RVs this year. I don't mind. Some people wouldn't make it (physically or mentally) if they didn't have that retreat. That doesn't make them less of a burner, just a person that needs a retreat. And to the newbies in RV's, I understand. Last year I was going by myself and had plans to drive my car, tent camp, two coolers, etc, etc... and I, too, got a bit overwhelmed and scared that I wouldn't be able to make it. After my first burn, being there and understanding what it's like a bit more, I knew I'd be ok tenting it next year. So I did, and I was fine.

[Karma]

Wow, RV ppl taking a pummeling. That's a drag.
I spent the first 8 yrs on the Playa building a camp from scratch. Definately loved pulling it off. It was a source of pride that Chateau Chris never so much as lost a stake in those 8 yrs. Great fun, great experiances and in no way regret roughing it (even though with proper planning and a foodsaver, we still managed to eat like kings every night !)

But as more and more friends start joining my little camp (and happily so I might add) and I had to keep enlarging the design to accomodate everyone (started out as a rigid 10' x 10' aluminum frame with parachute cover and astro turf anchored to my truck and staked by the guy lines and grew to a 20'x20' frame with chute and turf) something needed to change.

It was becoming a real task to setup and break camp and since most of my camp mates fly in from out of state, the above tasks were mine and whomever happened to ride with me to the event. Although in recent years, 3 of then have been flying in to arrive with me and have been able to help out ALOT !!

I bought a 27' toyhauler this year and what a great addition it has made to the camp. Central air and heat, fridge freezer (prop or elec) shower, toilet, two large beds, Onan 4000 micro quiet genny etc etc. You guys know what a newer travel trailer comes with.
I picked a toy hauler cause there geared more for dry camping and hauling large items via the drop down ramp and the main area's are more social oriented then sleeping oriented.
btw, No one slept inside at night, everyone stayed in tents setup around it. It seemed fairer that way and it could'nt have accomodated everyone this year anyway (15 in camp this year)
The genny ran when we had the AC on and it was only so the ppl in camp or our neighbors who had been out all night could grab a power nap in a cool dust free environment. It was great !

And during Mon and Sat's dustups, not only did it provide a ridiculously comfy place to relax, but we also took in alot of refugees who got trapped away from camp with no goggs or mask (amazing how many burner vets still leave camp without them)

Some of the best parties we had in BRC this year were during the storms with my campmates, neighbors and refugees all huddled inside the trailer drinkin, eatin, playin cards. Great stuff.

We also shared power all week with our neighbors who brought a really loud external genny with them. They did'nt have to start it once.

And my fave part of everyday was going on top of the trailer with a cold drink and watching the sun set behind the mountains with campmates, neighbors and strangers who asked to come up.

Oh, and we just parked one of our cars right up next to the trailer and the genny compartment. Great sound block and none of the neighbors around us could tell when we were running it until they got within 10 feet of it.

We were always out front under the shade cover, enough tables and chairs to accomodate anyone who stopped in, open, welcoming, nothing closed off about it.

I think the only creative thinking needed is how you integrate your RV into your camp, not sending us off to the perimeter.

BTW, Captain GD, I got to meet you at the meet n greet and the amazing land yacht. So awesome ! I was the guy with the Tuaca. Twas cool to finally meet you.
Doc Pyro, forever cool and Sunset...... *sigh*..

My two cents

[Karma]

p.s. it seems to me the city footprint grew because there was 50,000 ppl there this year, not because RV's were taking all the space.
Just kinda seems logical.