I could use some input here. Thanks for the ability to post to this forum.
I had a very different experience this year at BM. This was my 6th year. No year stands out as better or worse, just very different every year. I, once again, had an awesome time at BM this year.
I have an RV and have different people go every year. I always love the 4 people I cram into the RV and we usually get along famously. This year was no exception.
But this year was different. Nobody helped with either set up or tear down of the camp nor did any one offer! Ouch! I did it all myself. OUCH!
I’m reluctant to ask for help as I don’t want to appear bossy. I also don’t want to set up a list of what people’s responsibilities are before we go as that just seems too structured for what is an unstructured event for me.
I felt used this time and unappreciated this year. This has never happened before…everyone always pitched in without asking and things just got done magically except this year. I feel so bad about being taken advantage of I may pass on going in 2009….still thinking about it.
Could use anybodies thoughts?
Camping Etiquette?
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EB
- Posts: 492
- Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2004 3:36 pm
- Burning Since: 2000
- Camp Name: Camp Obelix (2:45 & A)
- Contact:
As I'm sure you're well aware, Moonpie, the playa's no place for passive-aggressive behavior.
You've got to spell it out to people what's expected of them before the trip begins. Worker bees don't complain when they see they're name on a chore list. They understand what it means to pitch in and git-r-done, as it were. It's the lazy ass mo-fo's who raise a stink. Their idea of radical self-expression is for you to wash their breakfast dishes while they play guitar in the hammock.
No thanks. Next time spell it out to everybody what's expected of them -- even the significant others, relatives and BFF's.
You've got to spell it out to people what's expected of them before the trip begins. Worker bees don't complain when they see they're name on a chore list. They understand what it means to pitch in and git-r-done, as it were. It's the lazy ass mo-fo's who raise a stink. Their idea of radical self-expression is for you to wash their breakfast dishes while they play guitar in the hammock.
No thanks. Next time spell it out to everybody what's expected of them -- even the significant others, relatives and BFF's.
Irony. You're soaking in it.
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chiefdanfox
- Posts: 786
- Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2006 11:14 pm
- Burning Since: 1986
- Location: Bodega Bay, CA
I think the greatest quote for the "roommate kitchen" issue is:
"Always do one more dish than you think you made, and the dishes always get done." Some modified version of this might be a good thing to introduce to your camp mates prior to leaving. But once there, be bossy, be direct. "HEY, I need help." If you have to ask twice, then just say, "So, who did you get a ride home with? Maybe you should go help them set up to guarantee a place in their vehicle..."
"Always do one more dish than you think you made, and the dishes always get done." Some modified version of this might be a good thing to introduce to your camp mates prior to leaving. But once there, be bossy, be direct. "HEY, I need help." If you have to ask twice, then just say, "So, who did you get a ride home with? Maybe you should go help them set up to guarantee a place in their vehicle..."
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unjonharley
- Posts: 10434
- Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2003 11:05 am
- Burning Since: 2001
- Camp Name: Elliot's naked bycycel repair
- Location: Salem Or.
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poisenloaf
- Posts: 50
- Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 5:32 pm
- Location: San Diego, CA
Camping
WOW, as usual you people have the best advise. Good point on the passive-aggressive (yes I am) but I am a REAL avoider of conflict or drama. I'm here to have fun...not be bossy.
Still working through issues in my mind. Yep...we had a lot of assclowns this year (maybe including me)
I now have dirty chairs, tables, showers, water cans, bicycles, easy-ups, dishes, coolers that I'm gonna have to clean by my lonesome...it's gonna take weeks to get this stuff straightened out and put away...
Still working through issues in my mind. Yep...we had a lot of assclowns this year (maybe including me)
I now have dirty chairs, tables, showers, water cans, bicycles, easy-ups, dishes, coolers that I'm gonna have to clean by my lonesome...it's gonna take weeks to get this stuff straightened out and put away...
My solution - (I am vissually challenged - so I do not drive) - but driver drives and on Monday - it is his day to relaxe.
Anybody whom occupies space in the RV - knows in advance what is expected - help set up - tear down, and of course the dreaded clean up upon returning from the desert. If this makes little sense to the other tag-alongs, they can be left behind and I not feel one bit guilty doing so.
Monday is a typical slow day because everybody is setting up. It is also wise to take things easy that day to acclamate to the desert conditions (The 2008 BM Monday was a little brutal).
I do not regard myself as bossy, or being a dicktator when it comes to setting up / tearing down and cleaning afterwards - it is part of the adventure. Anyone whom failes to pull their weight also fails to get a repeat invite for the next trip home.
I have ridden with other people to the desert and it was made clear in advance that set up / tear down and the clean up at home was all part of the experience.
I do not mind paying for gas and tickets - when those accompanying understand what is minimally required of them - otherwise they can make their own way next year.
We did pick uip a hitchhiker - a nieghbor, and was a lot of fun having him along until we dropped him off in Reno so he can continue his qwst to get home. He offered gas money - I refused, the ride was my gift to him, anyway - we had to pass thru Reno - so a stop along the way was not a burden. I'd be more then willing to have him as a campmate in the future.
Hope all had fun - I and many around us sure did. Made new friends, reunited with old friends.
Peace,
Fenwick
Anybody whom occupies space in the RV - knows in advance what is expected - help set up - tear down, and of course the dreaded clean up upon returning from the desert. If this makes little sense to the other tag-alongs, they can be left behind and I not feel one bit guilty doing so.
Monday is a typical slow day because everybody is setting up. It is also wise to take things easy that day to acclamate to the desert conditions (The 2008 BM Monday was a little brutal).
I do not regard myself as bossy, or being a dicktator when it comes to setting up / tearing down and cleaning afterwards - it is part of the adventure. Anyone whom failes to pull their weight also fails to get a repeat invite for the next trip home.
I have ridden with other people to the desert and it was made clear in advance that set up / tear down and the clean up at home was all part of the experience.
I do not mind paying for gas and tickets - when those accompanying understand what is minimally required of them - otherwise they can make their own way next year.
We did pick uip a hitchhiker - a nieghbor, and was a lot of fun having him along until we dropped him off in Reno so he can continue his qwst to get home. He offered gas money - I refused, the ride was my gift to him, anyway - we had to pass thru Reno - so a stop along the way was not a burden. I'd be more then willing to have him as a campmate in the future.
Hope all had fun - I and many around us sure did. Made new friends, reunited with old friends.
Peace,
Fenwick
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dragonpilot
- Posts: 1653
- Joined: Tue May 08, 2007 12:53 pm
- Burning Since: 2005
- Camp Name: Retrofrolic
- Location: Seattle, WA
In spite of your best efforts to lay down the law there are always those who will ignore you. These same ones are perfectly happy to let you do ALL the work. I've had them all on my RV...those that really pitch in and those who are just as irresponsible in real life as they are on the playa...and wonder why their lives are so fucked up.
One thing I neglected to add to the list of do's and dont's: No fucking in the god damned RV! If ya gotta git laid, do it somewhere else other than in my home on wheels. This is why God made tents! It's worse than shitting in the RV toilet!
One thing I neglected to add to the list of do's and dont's: No fucking in the god damned RV! If ya gotta git laid, do it somewhere else other than in my home on wheels. This is why God made tents! It's worse than shitting in the RV toilet!
Don't bore your friends with all your troubles. Tell your enemies instead, for they will delight in hearing about them.
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Captain Goddammit
- Posts: 8589
- Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 9:34 am
- Burning Since: 2000
- Camp Name: First Camp
- Location: Seattle, WA
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unjonharley
- Posts: 10434
- Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2003 11:05 am
- Burning Since: 2001
- Camp Name: Elliot's naked bycycel repair
- Location: Salem Or.
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Dustdevil
- Posts: 843
- Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 6:10 pm
- Burning Since: 1996
- Camp Name: Brain Freeze / Got Stickers
- Location: West Oakland
- Contact:
I am the lead in a small theme camp. We have a core group that will work till exhaustion to get things done. This year we also had a group that showed up after the camp was set up, left before strike and did nothing in between. They did help empty the margarita machine, though. I have never felt the need to ask for help. We have a power grid, many perks and NO dues. The only expense is a shared cost for the genny fuel. Even that is based on usage and length of time on the Playa. IE someone in a tent would pay less than someone in a motorhome. For 09' I have written an application. I have a rather long list of jobs that need to be done in camp. To camp with us you will need to choose two from the list. It is an experiment, but I am guessing it will weed out the lazy people. The core group has never been an issue so they will not need to fill out the app.
Those who think they can and those who think they can't are both right.
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Mad Maxine
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2008 7:04 pm
- Location: Seattle, WA
Good question!
I had an awesome experience with my camp mates this year. We all met on a forum, and came from cities all over the country. We met on Teamspeak (free internet phone) every Sunday. Due to one really awesome member, who was with a theme camp before, we managed to get ourselves a theme camp.
During our Sunday meetings, it was very clear who was going to do what, and who was coming first and leaving last. Although a few small items got forgotten or weren't completely finished prior to arrival, nothing was so important that it made a difference. And we did it all with about 2/3 of a camp full of VIRGINS!
I believe everybody had a good time regardless of the harsh conditions. We pulled off a great theme camp, and it was fantastic meeting the people that I only knew through the internet. Couldn't have asked for better.
I think that a lot of camp problems could be solved by having people fill out an application, even if it's not a theme camp. It is important to make it clear to everyone that they have a job to do when they get to the playa, and that they are expected to perform.
Also, I can say that the worst drama you can generate revolves around resources. By this, I mean that if you are expecting someone to provide a critical resource (a cooked camp meal, dishwashing services, water) you'd better make damn sure they intend to follow through.
Most of the drama I've seen revolves around communal kitchens where someone's supposed to cook a meal on X day. Burning Man is not a good place for hard schedules, unless a team is involved. Better to set up a communal kitchen where you get to use the stove, etc. and everyone takes care of themselves. If some jackass leaves an unreasonable pile of their dishes after clearly being asked to do them within a certain time frame, insert the dirty dishes in their tent/bed, or whatever.
Few things work better than peer pressure. If everyone else does their jobs, the slackers are more likely to pick up. But the threat of making them find their own ride home could apply any remaining needed pressure. Failing that, consider packing all the slacker's stuff in a big trash bag, stick their name on it, hand it to them next time they see you, and tell them not to let the door hit them in the ass on the way out.
As for your (self-admitted) passive-aggressive tendencies: you really need to stop doing that to yourself and others. People will continue to steamroll right over you until you clearly let them know that it is NOT OK. The only way you can keep that from happening is to clearly communicate.
The easiest way to communicate clearly is to 1) tell them exactly what you want, 2) give them a time frame in which to do the task, 3) clearly let them know what the consequences are both for doing the task and for not doing what you asked, and 4) follow through on the consequences if the task is done and if the task is not done.
It takes practice. Maybe find some folks from the east coast to hang out with so you can see how it works...
I wish you better luck next year!
I had an awesome experience with my camp mates this year. We all met on a forum, and came from cities all over the country. We met on Teamspeak (free internet phone) every Sunday. Due to one really awesome member, who was with a theme camp before, we managed to get ourselves a theme camp.
During our Sunday meetings, it was very clear who was going to do what, and who was coming first and leaving last. Although a few small items got forgotten or weren't completely finished prior to arrival, nothing was so important that it made a difference. And we did it all with about 2/3 of a camp full of VIRGINS!
I believe everybody had a good time regardless of the harsh conditions. We pulled off a great theme camp, and it was fantastic meeting the people that I only knew through the internet. Couldn't have asked for better.
I think that a lot of camp problems could be solved by having people fill out an application, even if it's not a theme camp. It is important to make it clear to everyone that they have a job to do when they get to the playa, and that they are expected to perform.
Also, I can say that the worst drama you can generate revolves around resources. By this, I mean that if you are expecting someone to provide a critical resource (a cooked camp meal, dishwashing services, water) you'd better make damn sure they intend to follow through.
Most of the drama I've seen revolves around communal kitchens where someone's supposed to cook a meal on X day. Burning Man is not a good place for hard schedules, unless a team is involved. Better to set up a communal kitchen where you get to use the stove, etc. and everyone takes care of themselves. If some jackass leaves an unreasonable pile of their dishes after clearly being asked to do them within a certain time frame, insert the dirty dishes in their tent/bed, or whatever.
Few things work better than peer pressure. If everyone else does their jobs, the slackers are more likely to pick up. But the threat of making them find their own ride home could apply any remaining needed pressure. Failing that, consider packing all the slacker's stuff in a big trash bag, stick their name on it, hand it to them next time they see you, and tell them not to let the door hit them in the ass on the way out.
As for your (self-admitted) passive-aggressive tendencies: you really need to stop doing that to yourself and others. People will continue to steamroll right over you until you clearly let them know that it is NOT OK. The only way you can keep that from happening is to clearly communicate.
The easiest way to communicate clearly is to 1) tell them exactly what you want, 2) give them a time frame in which to do the task, 3) clearly let them know what the consequences are both for doing the task and for not doing what you asked, and 4) follow through on the consequences if the task is done and if the task is not done.
It takes practice. Maybe find some folks from the east coast to hang out with so you can see how it works...
I wish you better luck next year!
Personality is what you are in the dark.
-John Whorfin
-John Whorfin
In my experience the best way to give other people their work duties is while I am working. I either ask for help with what I'm doing or suggest a parallel task. Just assume that your victim wants to work but doesn't know what to do.
If you're not giving instructions from your hammock who can complain.
If you're not giving instructions from your hammock who can complain.
Camp Etiquette
This is a great thread and I so appreciate the input!
The cooking was super easy...clean up was also easy as I pre cooked everything and was just warmed up. I am very well prepared pre-burn and do not trust anyone to bring anything beacuse I assume they will not do it. If I do everything on the front end and have it ready it facillitates packing the RV.
In past years everyone was so grateful that I planned everything out so well and took the intiative that they all just naturally wanted to help.
I really don't mind the front end work as it is spread out over many weekends. It was the ass-clowns who neither set up, tore down or helped with clean up (de-dusting everything at home not the dishes in the camp).
I did do the work and asked for their help while working BUT THEY JUST WALKED OFF!!! Yikes!
The cooking was super easy...clean up was also easy as I pre cooked everything and was just warmed up. I am very well prepared pre-burn and do not trust anyone to bring anything beacuse I assume they will not do it. If I do everything on the front end and have it ready it facillitates packing the RV.
In past years everyone was so grateful that I planned everything out so well and took the intiative that they all just naturally wanted to help.
I really don't mind the front end work as it is spread out over many weekends. It was the ass-clowns who neither set up, tore down or helped with clean up (de-dusting everything at home not the dishes in the camp).
I did do the work and asked for their help while working BUT THEY JUST WALKED OFF!!! Yikes!
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The CO
- Posts: 1670
- Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2005 10:56 am
- Burning Since: 1996
- Camp Name: M*A*S*H 4207th/404://Village Not Found
- Location: I-CORPS, M*A*S*H HQ, Van Nuts, CA
Leading by example is always the best way. I never ask my work crews in Defaultia to do anything I wont, and the same approach at BRC has served well over the years.fciron wrote:In my experience the best way to give other people their work duties is while I am working...
...If you're not giving instructions from your hammock who can complain.
Of course, having a military themed camp & privates is handy. RHIP.
M*A*S*H 4207th: An army of fun.
I don't care what the borg says: feather-wearers will NOT be served in Rosie's Bar.
When I ask how many burns, I mean at BRC.
I don't care what the borg says: feather-wearers will NOT be served in Rosie's Bar.
When I ask how many burns, I mean at BRC.
I've found that a lot of tension between campers is due to meal prep.
We didn't do this but I think it's a good idea:
Assign one or two people to make a dinner each night. That way the same person doesn't end up cooking whatever food was brought for the rest of the campers each night.
Bring extra bacon. And potatoes.
We didn't do this but I think it's a good idea:
Assign one or two people to make a dinner each night. That way the same person doesn't end up cooking whatever food was brought for the rest of the campers each night.
Bring extra bacon. And potatoes.
http://burningmanvideos2007.blogspot.com/
If someone offers you drugs, it's a cop.
If someone asks you for drugs, it's a cop.
If someone fucks you for drugs, it's not a cop.
If someone offers you drugs, it's a cop.
If someone asks you for drugs, it's a cop.
If someone fucks you for drugs, it's not a cop.
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gaminwench
- Posts: 3134
- Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 11:57 am
- Burning Since: 1999
- Camp Name: DOTA, EoD, OBOP, Destiny Lounge
- Location: Blue Ridge-la
I've been in a themecamp for 9 years - anywhere from 20-80 folks, depending on the year. Making it clear up front about work expectations and signing folks up for teams pre-playa, ie dome team, art team, fluff team, really helps - mix newbies with burners on each team. Kitchen(I've seen it every which way) seems to work best when each meal is taken by pre-arranged team. That group plans their meal pre-playa, and brings all of the (prepped) stuff they need for their meal - they don't have to clean up after they cook, there's another team for that. Meals at the same approximate time each day. Know in advance who is staying til the end, assign tear-down and LNT tasks pre-playa, so everyone knows what is expected. You will ALWAYS have some that 'don't get it', but, in a team situation, others will pick up the slack. Also, for your newbies, assign them a 'playa buddy' from the beginning planning - this gives them a one-on-one opportunity to 'understand' what's happening.
Our themecamp did NONE of these things this year, but our collective experience allowed us to get things done - pretty sure most of our newbies didn't 'get it' - most were outta there Saturday night - but our troopers knew what to do and did it - they knew noone else would!!
Happy Camping!
Our themecamp did NONE of these things this year, but our collective experience allowed us to get things done - pretty sure most of our newbies didn't 'get it' - most were outta there Saturday night - but our troopers knew what to do and did it - they knew noone else would!!
Happy Camping!