Anything, everything & more........................

Zephryus · Post by **Zephryus** » Sun Mar 14, 2004 6:01 am

Maybe. Like you, I edited my post just after I made it because I forgot to proofread it the first time. (Actually, I couldn't find the "edit" button, so I just deleted the first post and made a new spellchecked one.)

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 12:18 pm

artist/writer/musician as President

I gotta tell ya, being a recovering musician and all, I warn friends about dating musicians. I certainly don't want my president to be one. And, living in LA, I sure don't want the country run by anything like a majority of the folks I meet who make the claim 'actor'. Talk about inherent evil.

btw, I fucking love the problem of evil.

and DM, watch out. You are taking a very academically pure side in the nature/nurture debate. There have been some recent twin studies that tend to show nature having the upper hand. Again, good people have bad kids.

DM · Post by DM » Mon Mar 15, 2004 1:25 pm

Hey Stuart,

Please read what I wrote again because I am not discussing the nature/nurture debate. Nor am I denying that there are bad people out there.

Very simply I am making the point that human understanding is a fundamental right that should be given to all. It does not supercede someone's punishment if they have done something worng, it simply gives us a tool to move forward in this world and evolve in a better way.

Peace

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 3:57 pm

Very simply I am making the point that human understanding is a fundamental right that should be given to all.

Taken to the nth degree are you suggesting that I should try to understand why Pol Pot did what he did , and in doing so see the goodness in him?

I'm not getting you here DM.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 4:12 pm

DVD Burner wrote: America IMHO would be better off with an artist/writer/musician as President.

Poland had a cellist as president between the wars. Successfull experiement, let's emulate.

Tancorix · Post by **Tancorix** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 4:14 pm

There was NO goodness in Pol Pot whatsoever, no matter how you could possibly look at it. And I dare anyone to try and find some.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 4:39 pm

Hey, it's not like he was Stalin.

What is our measure of evil anyway? Does Stalin win for total death count or do we pro-rate for population oppressed and years in power? And then, I always think that when it comes to Cambodia, we have to remember who promised to "bomb it back into the stone age." It may have gone back to a different stone age, but it was definately send to a barbaric place. Or does multiple culpability of an evil in no way diminish the evil done by any one guilty party? And how many blood thirsty tyrants CAN dance on the head of a pin?

Tancorix · Post by **Tancorix** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 4:51 pm

Sorry, you hit a hot button / automatic lash out regardless of the consequences topic. I don't have many of them, but PP is one. I consider him worse than Stalin, and that's all I'm going to say about it.

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 5:07 pm

Tancorix wrote:Sorry, you hit a hot button / automatic lash out regardless of the consequences topic. I don't have many of them, but PP is one. I consider him worse than Stalin, and that's all I'm going to say about it.

ok, so call me an airport, yes it flew over my head.
could you say more for me because as far as I can understand from what i just read, you seem to be upset about peeing.

what's PP?

juanicoheal · Post by **juanicoheal** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 5:15 pm

OMG people -

Backyards have a tendancy to gather a load of trash, especially when the house is white.

$0.02

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 5:35 pm

Pol Pot

ok ok i get ya.

bwwwwaaaaaaa

DM · Post by DM » Mon Mar 15, 2004 7:35 pm

Pol Pot, Stalin & Hitler walk into a bar.....hahaha...just kidding.

Ok - Lets pick some mass-murderers. Stalin - killed 30 million! Hitler - killed 7 million! Pol Pot - dont know, but I am sure it was a lot.

All these guys are horrific people who committed horrific acts.

So..Dave...what the hell are you saying about these guys deserving some understanding?!?!?

My response:
Yes, we should understand why Pol Pot did what he did. Of course! How else can we learn to not do such things in the future? If we as a species are able to sink to such low depths, we need to know why. We need to learn from our mistakes, don’t we? The more we know, the less we can tolerate such things. The less we tolerate such things, the less they will happen, the more we will evolve in a decent direction.

Question to you: Do we execute those who have executed? Do two wrongs make a right? If they do, then what is the definition of wrong? How can we ever move forward? What type of guidance system are we creating if we say killing is bad, but killing someone bad is ok?

Tancroix - At some point in Pol Pots life, I am sure he had a lot of goodness. He mutated over the years, began believing in something (as we all do) and acted out.
If you could speak to him today - what do you think he would say - assuming he is not insane - would he be remorseful? I think, yes. He fucked up - no doubt, royally, beyond royally, astronomically. He did sick and horrible things and if he were in my country I would lock him up for sure and make sure he cannot hurt anyone, anymore. But, I would not cast him into some criteria that lets him rot and stay there as a mass-murderer, unable to learn about himself or evolve himself. I would give him a chance to speak his mind and learn from his mistakes - hence, give him understanding.

Althoug I am not religious at all, I was just reminded of the Pope's assasination attempt back in the 80's. Remember how the pope met with him and forgave or blessed him.

Crypto - shit man, don’t get complicated! Just kidding. I like to judge people based on how much they know. If someone knows that they have more power over someone and misuse it - they are being malicsious and that is bad. But the level of understanding really has to be high to be truly fully aware of what you are doing. You would be surprised what you would see if you could look at our own internal guidance systems (you, me...everyone) - what makes us choose what we do and how we do it. Really strange stuff. We are all totally twisted. (I think we all kow that)
So does the soldier, who knows the war is bad lay down his gun OR keep fighting and absolve himself of responsibility because his superiors gave the order and not him. I dunno. Tough question. LaChatNoir had an incredible comment on the first page that really summarized a lot of what we are talking about in a really good way. You should check it out.

Sorry for all the words I use, bad, evil, crap this, crap that. Its just that our English language is limited. Please see the bigger picture rather than focus on some of the descriptive words.

LeChatNoir · Post by **LeChatNoir** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 7:36 pm

Stuart...

You raise a good point that I understood before writing my first post. I agree with what you infer... that there are some people that are born with problems, for example no sense of right and wrong (as I touched on in a following post). But I suppose I unintentionally left those with such a developmental hindrance out of my scope of comments. So yes... you are absolutely correct to say good parents have bad kids. It does happen. I just wanted to say that I agree with your stance in that regard. If I am misunderstanding, please correct me.

Getting back to the general discussion. Because someone has no remorse does not mean so should everyone else. No matter how dastardly the deed, the one who committed it is still a life that was given by something (insert personal belief system) other than yourself and should be respected at the very least for that, if on no other level. The act of giving respect, especially to those who don’t give it to you is often hard. But it is the first step to making a bad situation better. Call upon rational action, not instinctive reaction.

If someone does something bad to me, I act accordingly and with the respect due them. I accept that they are who they are and move on. I don't burden myself with trying over and over to make them understand how what they did was wrong. They have taken their own steps and are standing where they are standing. I am standing where I am standing. If what they did was wrong, then they know it... or they don’t... doesn’t matter. I cannot change this. Only they can and it won’t happen in the blink of an eye. So I just keep moving and tend to my own lot.

Is it nature or nurture? Perhaps the answer is yes... There are so many variables that it could not possibly be boiled down to one single causal instance. Life has too many facets. Only you can determine how you process the things you face.

Don't know if this helps clarify my point of view. So even if no one else agrees with it, can you at least accept it as mine and respect that? Can you also understand that it doesn't change who you are in any way for me to think this? Agree to dissagree so to speak. If so then perhaps we are not that far from understanding afterall.

DM · Post by DM » Mon Mar 15, 2004 7:46 pm

ChatNoir - You are poetic in the way you describe things. I understand you much better than myself, when I read your stuff. I re-read my stuff and see it as babble. See, re-read line 2.

I agree with you totally on almost all your points.

Questions:
Does someone try to show the way for others or not. The others are about to, let's say...walk off a cliff. I think assistance, not forcefullness, is almost a duty.

To each his own, always. But there are times when I would interfere. If I see someone doing something bad, I want to step in and stop it. Where does that type of situation stop and tell you to butt out and leave it alone?

DM · Post by DM » Mon Mar 15, 2004 7:57 pm

You know what - dont even answer that. I will simply re-phrase what you have already said.

All situations are different. You need to evaluate it on its own and use your judgement, balancing all factors involved.

Thats just one thing I deal with ever so often and I guess you said it well earlier, with your answer.

LeChatNoir · Post by **LeChatNoir** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 8:11 pm

Meow...

Peace to you, friend.

Tancorix · Post by **Tancorix** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 10:57 pm

Would he be remorseful? Maybe when they build the Taj Mahal out of ice inside the gates to hell. And I don't mean Hell, Michigan either.

Beyond that I have previewed this post 9 times and I'm not able to communicate the depth of rage, anger, and hate this subhuman inspires in me and 2 people I have come to know. My words keep failing me. So again I think I will bow out and not flood this board with it.

I will say he was a child once, and children imho are innocents. So you are right...there was some goodness. But no amount of childhood goodness can offset his legacy. I join many others in celebrating his passing.

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 2:27 am

Tancorix wrote:Would he be remorseful? Maybe when they build the Taj Mahal out of ice inside the gates to hell. And I don't mean Hell, Michigan either.

Beyond that I have previewed this post 9 times and I'm not able to communicate the depth of rage, anger, and hate this subhuman inspires in me and 2 people I have come to know. My words keep failing me. So again I think I will bow out and not flood this board with it.

Sorry,
I cant let you bow out. please express your feelings. It's just a message board.

besides...you need to and have earned it. you owe it to yourself and to the community.

Zephryus · Post by **Zephryus** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 2:41 am

I'm gonna have to disagree with DVD Burner on this one. Unless you're really good with words or you really need to get something out, messageboards are far too impersonal a medium for expressing such a personal subject.
Do what you need to, man.

Rob the Wop · Post by **Rob the Wop** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 8:32 am

Tancorix wrote:I will say he was a child once, and children imho are innocents. So you are right...there was some goodness. But no amount of childhood goodness can offset his legacy. I join many others in celebrating his passing.

Even then, deeply violent and homicial psychotic behavior usually starts with torturing animals as a kid.

I have a far more pessimistic viewpoint than the lot of you. I believe humans are inherently "evil", as defined by being self serving to the detriment of others. Grow a group of humans in a room without other human contact, without a language or any "civilized" training of any sort. Once they hit a age where they can actively move and function- place just enough enough food for one minus the number of the group.

Bets on whether the largest will take more than their share, and the smallest gets nothing? Hint- study primate behavior.

Humans, as all animals, have a sense of self-preservation. Being partly carnivores and the fact that we form "packs" with an "aplha male/female", we also have ingrained aggressive tendancies in regards to "territory/property". We also have a tendancy towards jeasouly stemmed from the mating instinct. All of these built in emotions take years of "growing up" to remove. We teach our kids to share, to make friends with others, not to fight, etc. We excuse this natural behavior as just "growing up" and when someone acts petty, jealous, property hoarding, etc. we say that they haven't "grown up".

In some people, this negative behavior is reinforced. Watch Saddam's sons. In some people the wiring is faulty and they are unable to concieve compassion for another being. Homicidal maniacs do not see people as beings- they are akin to inanimate objects that they can "have fun" with.

Either way, I feel that simply removing these defective beings, either created or natural, simply prevents others that are civilized from becoming victims. They are practicing "natural selection" in a form that is artifical, we should respond just as if they were a cougar in a playground or a fire in a building. Remove the threat that will engulf the group.

Course, I strongly believe in the "greater good" principle. Part of the reason I joined the Navy years ago (bad move in hindsight). If my death could save 100 people, I have no problem dying.

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 8:45 am

Zephryus wrote:I'm gonna have to disagree with DVD Burner on this one. Unless you're really good with words or you really need to get something out, messageboards are far too impersonal a medium for expressing such a personal subject.
Do what you need to, man.

I agree. ment to say that last time. Totally his choice.

Isotopia · Post by **Isotopia** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 9:14 am

Humans, as all animals, have a sense of self-preservation. Being partly carnivores and the fact that we form "packs" with an "aplha male/female", we also have ingrained aggressive tendancies in regards to "territory/property". We also have a tendancy towards jeasouly stemmed from the mating instinct. All of these built in emotions take years of "growing up" to remove. We teach our kids to share, to make friends with others, not to fight, etc. We excuse this natural behavior as just "growing up" and when someone acts petty, jealous, property hoarding, etc. we say that they haven't "grown up".

But this starts getting into the fuzzy realm of whether biological hardwiring and the results/consequences that spring forth from the behavior(s) associated with it constitute 'evil.' Is biology inherently evil? What's the difference between a primate or any large animal that kills the young of another and a despot that orders a platoon to kill a small village inhabited primarily of children? Personally I'm not terribly sure although I'll take a leap here and say that in Homo sapien it has a lot to do with the fact that we do so with a sense of malice. I'm not sure that any other sepcies is capable of such 'human' emotions.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 9:26 am

Sorry Tancorix
Certainly didn't want to set anything off. I certainly wouldn't invite any of the men over for dinner. At some point I can't tell any more who's worse. They are all damned to the deepest circles of the hell that I don't believe in. I guess that getting very abstract is one of the defences I have against peering into those particular abysses.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 9:30 am

Rob the Wop wrote:Grow a group of humans in a room without other human contact, without a language or any "civilized" training of any sort. Once they hit a age where they can actively move and function- place just enough enough food for one minus the number of the group.

Extra evil points to the one who actually does this as anything more than a thought experiement. Those 1950s monkey with terry cloth mom experiments are deeply disturbing to me. I think those children wouldn't grow up fully human, as well as being viscious.

Rob the Wop · Post by **Rob the Wop** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 9:37 am

Isotopia wrote:But this starts getting into the fuzzy realm of whether biological hardwiring and the results/consequences that spring forth from the behavior(s) associated with it constitute 'evil.' Is biology inherently evil?

Which is why I gave such a vague description of evil. It's a tough question as 'evil' is simply a human term. Its pointless to question whether an animal takes 'enjoyment' from killing unfamiliar young, their range of emotions might be radically different from ours. We think animals feel fear and rage, but without being the animal- we can't really know. It must feel 'good' in some sense to destroy a rival's young, otherwise the animal would not do it.

I acknowledge that cognitive thought should be mostly beyond other animals. I think that the hardwiring between some sense driven animals (some dog's sense of smell, etc.) produce thought patterns that we could never understand- that the thought patterns associated with our sense of smell are primitive by comparison.

Back to the nature issue, I’m not entirely sure animals do not feel satisfaction from say, eating their own young. I would if the little fucker screwed up my computer, but my back hair places me in the lower echelons of primates anyway.

The definition of evil is a tough nut to crack. Our culture (whatever it may be) defines it. I find us to be no more than animals, just a little better at remembering and tool usage. I think the same 'evil' found in nature stems from our naturally occurring emotions that are later shaped by conditioning and experience. Same 'emotions' just more complex and with that ability to attach these emotion to objects not directly in our senses. IE. anger stemming from an ideology or reading of outrageous events.

Course, I'm just a tool using ape- so what the hell do I know?

Alpha · Post by **Alpha** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 10:03 am

Humans are, in my estimation, inherently self-interested. I doubt we'd still be on the planet were this not so. I'd argue that behavior that society calls "evil" is the result of a being that fails to understand the link between self-interest and the repercussions of violating social norms. Or worse yet, a being that understands too well that this link is largely imaginary.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 11:15 am

I think we are an inherently social species with great capacity to re-think others into kin--or kin into others. Some of us are obviously born defective and when you think of how many "modules" go into the human brain--or "heart" if you prefer--it's not unlikely that the "empathy" module goes wrong in some people. Horribly, horribly wrong. The search for status and power is inherent, but power is not the only sort of status, nor is there only one kind of power. Nor does everyone have the same thirst for it. I've read some very good theories over the years, but they all end up over simplifying some portion of my experience. If believing in an inborn human goodness helps you do good in the world, then good. If it sets you up as a patsy, drop it. We'll never know the complete truth about anything, so at some point we have to just live as best as we can among all the contradictory pulls on our lives.

Or something like that.

LeChatNoir · Post by **LeChatNoir** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 3:25 pm

If it sets you up as a patsy, drop it

Or at least modify how you apply it within your life.

so at some point we have to just live as best as we can among all the contradictory pulls on our lives.

Bingo...

Hello Cryptofishist... hope you're doing better.

DM · Post by DM » Tue Mar 16, 2004 10:08 pm

Rob,

I am not gonna discuss whether your theory is true or not. People in room with food.

What I will say is, we have the option to be better. We can do it. Especially people like us who live in civilized society, where food is not an issue, neither is clothing, neither is shelter. (Lets not dive into the amount of poverty, homelessness and malnourishment our country experiences - lets just say, if someone wants to, they can get food and shelter) We don’t need to fight over food. We have food for all. Take that concept to a higher place, away from food as an example.
So, we have a chance to do something more. Our brains give us this ability. Like you said - some of us do Grow Up. So, we are able to move in the right direction.

I fully agree with you about us being susceptible to other peoples behavior. When I said we are totally twisted, I was referring to such things. It is incredible how susceptible we are to ideas and beliefs and people. I deal with this issue everyday in my life. It is fucking tough out there.

So since we have an option. Since we are lucky enough to be able to choose HOW we act. Which way should we act? I choose positive. ChatNoir said it well. We have to tend to our own lots. Focus on yourself more than others. There is obviously a balance there, but in terms of other bad people, you just have to look at them and know what you would do differently. Since we have a choice, I choose not to get rid of them. Because, if for some reason, I was one of those bad people, man, I wouldn’t want you to get rid of me. And, people do change. Have you changed? Of course, we all do.

And you are right, some people like Qusay are total whack-jobs. I watched in utter disgust some of the things he used to do while hanging out. It was on 60 minutes a few weeks ago. So, no argument there. Those guys do exist, and if they are harmful to others, yes, they need to be dealt with. But in the proper manner. Not summary execution. That may be part of the problem with our prisons right now. So over-flowing. Does anybody have the time to deal with these people in the proper manner?

Isotopia - I agree. That is what makes us different.

Rob, I just read your other post.
I think we have all seen enough nature shows to know that there is not a cheetah gang going out on the sahara randomly mauling springbock. I have never seen an animal not have a calculated purpose in what it was doing. And that purpose has always been for its own survival. In their world, they need to do that. Knowone offers them a kitchen to come and dine into.

And yes, we are just animals, but we got the goods man. We create things. Incredible things. Some bad, some good, but we still do a lot with our brains and we can always do more.

Rob - Is that you in the picture? Can you tell us about it.

Crypto asks if we can really do good. Isnt the answer all around us - everywhere. Right now, if we open up a history book we can find thousands and thousands of positive deeds. Yes, yes, yes - there are many more bad deeds done out there, we all know that. But what should we focus on? Positive or Negative? Does Negative EVER make us feel good?
So, we can be good, we can do positive things. We have the choice to do what we want. We just have to choose.

Licentious Queen · Post by **Licentious Queen** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 8:01 am

LaChatNoir wrote:I believe that no person is born evil. Born into evil, maybe yes... but not born evil. A newborn baby is the epitome of innocence.

I agree with you completely. I once attended a Christian church with my aunt on Easter, and the man delivering the sermon was saying that babies are born into this world evil, and must be cleansed of their sins. This view made me want to be sick. I will listen to all views and respect all people that have a faith regardless of if I agree with it or not. It can be hard to stand by you religion or belief when there are so many people in this world with conflicting views. I just had a very hard time swallowing that. I am a spiritual person, and complile my own beliefs from many different religions, paths, and experiences I have had.

We all need to be open to ideas and beliefs. Whether you agree or not, have respect. Respect I think could be the universal religion.

just my 2 cents...

Anything, everything & more........................

The Black Cat Says: