Mutant vehicle - figuring horsepower required?

Ideas, advice, tips, and tricks regarding the building and creation of mutant vehicles in Black Rock City
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Grazelda
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Mutant vehicle - figuring horsepower required?

Post by Grazelda » Tue Sep 16, 2008 11:06 am

Could someone with more engineering brain than I help with a MV question?

We have a working design for an MV and are trying to guess how large an engine it will need. Figure it will have 15" tires (spindles, hubs, etc from a boat trailer), would need to move about 2600 lbs (9 people @ ~175lbs each + 800 lbs of vehicle + 200lbs of drivegear and toys) at the max speed of 5 mph. Can tolerate (very) slow acceleration -- to a point.

Problem is that no one we know ever passed a basics physics course :oops:

And being generally clueless with math - past figuring the weight to move - we are in a state of blissful ignorance and fear we are sadly underestimating what engine size we need. Hoped to find someone more intelligent who might take pitty and at least give us some examples of what size engines have worked in the past for them.

Time is wasting and crisis looms... We only have 11 months and 2 weeks.

.

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Re: Mutant vehicle - figuring horsepower required?

Post by zabsinth » Tue Sep 16, 2008 11:23 am

Grazelda wrote:Could someone with more engineering brain than I help with a MV question?

We have a working design for an MV and are trying to guess how large an engine it will need. Figure it will have 15" tires (spindles, hubs, etc from a boat trailer), would need to move about 2600 lbs (9 people @ ~175lbs each + 800 lbs of vehicle + 200lbs of drivegear and toys) at the max speed of 5 mph. Can tolerate (very) slow acceleration -- to a point.

Problem is that no one we know ever passed a basics physics course :oops:

And being generally clueless with math - past figuring the weight to move - we are in a state of blissful ignorance and fear we are sadly underestimating what engine size we need. Hoped to find someone more intelligent who might take pitty and at least give us some examples of what size engines have worked in the past for them.

Time is wasting and crisis looms... We only have 11 months and 2 weeks.

.
Let me get this strait - you have the skill to build this machine and attach an engine and transmission, but you don't have a powertrain in mind already? Sheesh....


My best guess is that for playa speeds, just about any car or truck engine will work.

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Post by ygmir » Tue Sep 16, 2008 11:48 am

it's all about the gearing.........
you could do it with20 h.p. maybe even less, if, it's geared low enough......
and, what sort of clutch arrangement you have.........
Also, what type drive train? Transmission?
standard auto rear end, solid axle, Chain drive, belt drive, single wheel drive or axle with two wheels......

lots of specifics will determine the final configuration......
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Re: Mutant vehicle - figuring horsepower required?

Post by Grazelda » Tue Sep 16, 2008 11:50 am

Let me get this strait - you have the skill to build this machine and attach an engine and transmission, but you don't have a powertrain in mind already? Sheesh....

My best guess is that for playa speeds, just about any car or truck engine will work.
sigh... yes.

we have powertrain ideas in mind, and feel that any car or truck engine would weigh-in at about 500 lbs + extra-duty mountings + tranny + heavy axles + etc... and be complete overkill to putt-putt at 5mph. we hoped for small engine(s) like in 10hp to 20hp range. we could put a chevy engine on a mini-bike or go cart too i guess, but why?

to me, creating and building it is a matter of basic mechanical skills, calculating the rational torque and horsepower needed is not. not sure why that would earn a sheesh... why not just say what size engine you have used with a similar weight on a vehicle that you have built?

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Post by Grazelda » Tue Sep 16, 2008 12:10 pm

ygmir wrote:it's all about the gearing.........
you could do it with20 h.p. maybe even less, if, it's geared low enough......
and, what sort of clutch arrangement you have.........
Also, what type drive train? Transmission?
standard auto rear end, solid axle, Chain drive, belt drive, single wheel drive or axle with two wheels......

lots of specifics will determine the final configuration......
on one side we were thinking along the lines of centrifugal clutch, front chain drive to like a 40-50 tooth drive sprocket (i.e. old motorcycle rear wheel sprocket) centered on a 2 wheel axle. 2 rear idler wheels w/disc brakes. like a big front engine go cart. but also thought towards using a 250cc 1970's dirt bike engine with chain drive and tranny; but did not want to have to mess with 2-cycle oil mixes, potential noise, and tranny shifting.

guess you could think of this MV as a 12-foot tall catapult-frame-looking thing on a 8'x10' platform frame made from 4x4 posts. but its not a capapult and won't throw anything... the frame posts will also be used to build the trailer to haul it 2000 miles, which will then be repurposed to be the MV. after, all the hardware will be hauled out and the posts donated or burned.

thats the flawed logic so far at least...

.

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Post by Dr. Pyro » Tue Sep 16, 2008 1:05 pm

I don't know what you're worried about Grazelda. The DMV won't approve your MV no matter what you do. They never do, so you may as well save your aggrevation and quit now. Trust me, I know of what I speak.

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Post by hsdavis » Tue Sep 16, 2008 1:25 pm

Dr. Pyro wrote:I don't know what you're worried about Grazelda. The DMV won't approve your MV no matter what you do. They never do, so you may as well save your aggrevation and quit now. Trust me, I know of what I speak.
Trust Dr. Pyro! Your vehicle must be very mutated, benefit the community, possibly for transport of others and be well lit at night. You should not be able to tell what kind of vehicle it was before you started and it must be extreme.
Read the guide and then make it a peddle vehicle. Those don't need approval of the DMV.

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Post by ygmir » Tue Sep 16, 2008 1:25 pm

on one side we were thinking along the lines of centrifugal clutch, front chain drive to like a 40-50 tooth drive sprocket (i.e. old motorcycle rear wheel sprocket) centered on a 2 wheel axle. 2 rear idler wheels w/disc brakes. like a big front engine go cart. but also thought towards using a 250cc 1970's dirt bike engine with chain drive and tranny; but did not want to have to mess with 2-cycle oil mixes, potential noise, and tranny shifting.

guess you could think of this MV as a 12-foot tall catapult-frame-looking thing on a 8'x10' platform frame made from 4x4 posts. but its not a capapult and won't throw anything... the frame posts will also be used to build the trailer to haul it 2000 miles, which will then be repurposed to be the MV. after, all the hardware will be hauled out and the posts donated or burned.

thats the flawed logic so far at least...

.[/quote]

How would you steer?
with a solid front axle, you'd need rear steering.........not idlers.
you'd be able to figure gearing using drive wheel circumference, speed, and rpm of the engine.........
If using low h.p., you'll want it running at max h.p./rpm at your cruising speed........
most efficient and cheapest parts would probably be a small car engine/auto trans/front wheel drive setup.........although the gears my be way to tall.........
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Post by phil » Tue Sep 16, 2008 1:55 pm

Send Captain Goddammit a private message and see what he has to say. Maybe he can send you somewhere for some help.

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Post by Toolmaker » Tue Sep 16, 2008 2:33 pm

Dr. Pyro wrote:I don't know what you're worried about Grazelda. The DMV won't approve your MV no matter what you do. They never do, so you may as well save your aggrevation and quit now. Trust me, I know of what I speak.
Doc stop whining and get to redesigning Tieland so you can drive it. Tell you what.. I'll help ya brainstorm if need be.. as long as it don't look like a pickup anymore you're good. So hang some plywood around the outside and call it a day. PM me next week for next weeks chores.

To the OP.. use a 454 ontop of something heavy duty like a van, truck or rv chasis. If you can try to get a bus so you can keep folks placated by giving rides to ppl.
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Post by Dork » Tue Sep 16, 2008 3:18 pm

Trying a few different worst case combinations here I got 10hp give or take:
http://www.talbertmfg.com/index2.html

I'd probably go at least 20 to be safe since you don't want to overtax the motor. Make sure to put a beefy radiator on the system and a guage near the driver. Yanking the complete front end from a Geo Metro would probably be the simplest and most efficient, but a tractor setup might be easier to hide and haul back/forth.

How do you plan to steer? With 2 fixed tires in front run off a differential and one freely rotating tire in the back you could do skid steer - just rig the brakes seperately. Or pull the steering setup off the donor vehicle.

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Post by dragonfly Jafe » Tue Sep 16, 2008 3:23 pm

You can ball park it by doing a quick energy calculation....

Kinetic Energy = 1/2 * Mass * Velocity^2

2600 lbs = 1182 Kg

5mph = 2.25 meters / second

So,

KE = 1/2 * 1182 Kg * 2.25 meters^2 / 1 second^3

KE = 2992 joules

1 watt = 1 joule / second

assuming 50% loss due to friction, 6000 watts is closer.

1hp = 746 watts, so 8 hp should barely do it if geared properly.

12hp would be better, 16-20 probably ideal (not running at max all the time)
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Post by ygmir » Tue Sep 16, 2008 3:28 pm

dragonfly Jafe wrote:You can ball park it by doing a quick energy calculation....

Kinetic Energy = 1/2 * Mass * Velocity^2

2600 lbs = 1182 Kg

5mph = 2.25 meters / second

So,

KE = 1/2 * 1182 Kg * 2.25 meters^2 / 1 second^3

KE = 2992 joules

1 watt = 1 joule / second

assuming 50% loss due to friction, 6000 watts is closer.

1hp = 746 watts, so 8 hp should barely do it if geared properly.

12hp would be better, 16-20 probably ideal (not running at max all the time)
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Post by ilmarinen » Tue Sep 16, 2008 3:47 pm

Uh, I think you are doing it wrong. That part where you take the kinetic energy in joules, then equate that to joules-per-second, a power rating...that's not a correct relationship.

I think what you just calculated is what kind of (theoretical) power would be needed to accelerate the object to 5 mph in one second. (On an ideal frictionless plane, etc.)


-B.
dragonfly Jafe wrote:You can ball park it by doing a quick energy calculation....

Kinetic Energy = 1/2 * Mass * Velocity^2

2600 lbs = 1182 Kg

5mph = 2.25 meters / second

So,

KE = 1/2 * 1182 Kg * 2.25 meters^2 / 1 second^3

KE = 2992 joules

1 watt = 1 joule / second

assuming 50% loss due to friction, 6000 watts is closer.

1hp = 746 watts, so 8 hp should barely do it if geared properly.

12hp would be better, 16-20 probably ideal (not running at max all the time)
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Post by MikeVDS » Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:22 pm

I think what you just calculated is what kind of (theoretical) power would be needed to accelerate the object to 5 mph in one second. (On an ideal frictionless plane, etc.)
You are correct, except for the frictionless part which he accounted for later. The thing is that he's also correct. Getting to 5mph in one second seems like a very reasonable way to figure out power needs. Do you really want to drive something that is going to take a significant amount of time to ramp up to 5mph? I doubt it, so his numbers are probably close to minimum required. His answer may have been incomplete since he failed to mention his assumption that 5mph in one second seems like a reasonable acceleration, but otherwise good enough for paper napkin and garage engineering.
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Post by ygmir » Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:23 pm

ilmarinen wrote:Uh, I think you are doing it wrong. That part where you take the kinetic energy in joules, then equate that to joules-per-second, a power rating...that's not a correct relationship.

I think what you just calculated is what kind of (theoretical) power would be needed to accelerate the object to 5 mph in one second. (On an ideal frictionless plane, etc.)


-B.
dragonfly Jafe wrote:You can ball park it by doing a quick energy calculation....

Kinetic Energy = 1/2 * Mass * Velocity^2

2600 lbs = 1182 Kg

5mph = 2.25 meters / second

So,

KE = 1/2 * 1182 Kg * 2.25 meters^2 / 1 second^3

KE = 2992 joules

1 watt = 1 joule / second

assuming 50% loss due to friction, 6000 watts is closer.

1hp = 746 watts, so 8 hp should barely do it if geared properly.

12hp would be better, 16-20 probably ideal (not running at max all the time)

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Post by MikeVDS » Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:25 pm

Also, remember that is minimum. That means that pedal to the floor you go 5mph in one second. I personally like to overbuild so that the machinery doesn't have to work hard at operating speeds. Which I assume is why he threw in about a 3x factor on top of his calcs.
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Post by Grazelda » Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:37 pm

really appreciate the advice thus far... i should have been more elaborate about the idea and why car/truck solutions would not work for us.

goal was to provide a friendly mini-taxi service around the playa. to include, not exclude. because of money and transport issues it has to be small enough to haul the 2000 miles there economically. and to build it from materials which might be gifted and/or recycled afterwards. figured we'd make more new friends giving free rides than walking on old folks blisters.

idea was to build a small MV from using primarily wood 4x4 posts and use 2x4 studs to make seats. functionally an 8x10 platform with a 10-foot fly bridge on top of it, two bench seats below to seat 6-8 people total and driven from a bench seat on the fly bridge. that mobile frame would act as the base for turning it into a creature of some sort. ideas so far have included a big ass pink bunny, grim reaper (boring), unevolved caveman, etc.

plan was to first build it as a 4x4 post frame thing with cross 4x4 members, attach a twin axle trailer set we have, use the resulting frame as a temp trailer to haul us to the playa. once there. disassemble the trailer and use its wood frame & wheel sets to build the taxi platform from. after the man burns, we dissemble the taxi, remove all hardware, and gift the still very viable lumber to what/wherever it might do good.

so a car/truck solution is not viable for us, and contrary to the post-burn gifting logic. and too much to haul out and haul back at 2000 miles per leg, too heavy and steel-needing for a wood framed recyclable MV.

our 'zen' was that it would need about 20 hp (which dragonfly's much-smarter-than-me math seems to fit), and that we'd use front friction brakes for passive steering.

dumb idea? [duck & cover]

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Post by motskyroonmatick » Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:38 pm

Here is what I did.
1970 F250 camper special chassis(No Body No engine No Transmission) Wheels suspension and drive line were present.
Bought manual steering box
Bought cheapest Granny Low transmission I could find at the local junk yard.(50$)
Bought wrecked honda motorcycle(750 V twin about 42 HP I think) Way too much$.
Bought disc that fit on front shaft of transmission(tore it apart and turned it in to a sprocket holder)
Welded parallel rails on to the bottom of the motorcycle frame and built holder for it out of plate like an adjustable go cart motor mount.
Welded/bolted the transmission and power plant in place so everything lined up and the drive line would function properly and the engine would block nearly all access to the steering box.
Bla Bla Bla
In the end I could drive the thing at walking speed in first gear on the motorcycle gear box and third on the manual transmission with no applied throttle. Yes!! At an idle it went walking speed and weighed 4,000 lbs without riders.
I only had to accelerate a little to get over the micro dunes. I avoided the big ones. I never tried it in 4th on the manual but I think it would have been under 5mph.
If you go the motorcycle route--
Get a 4 stroke with a radiator and replace the stock radiator with a small car radiator with switchable 12 volt fans. Run one fan all the time and the second one if you need more cooling.
You probably don't need more than a 1 to 4 ratio from the motorcycle output to the input on the front of the transmission if you are running near 50 HP. My ratio is probably 1 to 7 or 8 and it is way over kill but I always have plenty of torque.
Run the motorcycle in first gear only. The chain makes allot of noise if it is going fast and it will save on wear and tear if you keep that chain going slow.
Try to find an engine that doesn't vibrate allot. Mine does and it dramatically adds to the noise and makes mounting the battery directly to the motorcycle frame a really bad idea.
A sport bike engine would be the best but they are usually really expensive.

If I had to do it over again I would do a generator/electric system and just couple an electric motor directly to the front of the transmission. Now that is a system where you could really figure out the ratios. Figuring out the ratios was impossible for me as I could never find the ratios in the motorcycle gear box but I went with my gut and it worked!

One more thing. Vw pedal assemblies(Older bug) can be made to act on cables for throttle and clutch and about any master cylinder can be put behind the brake pedal. All this can be done with a bit of contraptioneering and welding.

It only has to work for one week out of every year.

I would definitely avoid a centrifical clutch because they like to heat up and die. Then you have to replace the pads or the whole thing. They work well at wide open throttle but not well for starts and stops.

Maybe this will give you some good ideas.

edit..Once again I type way too slow.
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Post by unjonharley » Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:52 pm

I'm starting with an 11hp 5speed garden tractor.. Strip the body off and the drive train is all there.. Change pullys as needed.. Then build the MV around it. Or build a trailer mv and pull it with an MV..

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Post by geekster » Tue Sep 16, 2008 5:48 pm

It depends on how large a vehicle you want but I would just get an old pickup truck (someone else mentioned a camper, that would work too), strip it down to the frame and go from there. On the small end I would go with something like an early 1990's Toyota pickup with the 22R engine. They last practically forever. Put a larger main drive pulley on it or a smaller water pump/alternator pulleys to keep their RPM higher with slower engine RPM and have a ball.
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Post by Toolmaker » Tue Sep 16, 2008 6:38 pm

If you have to move it 2000 miles either way than a bus/van/rv is prolly yer best bet. By using your existing vehicle as a base for your mutant you only have to worry about working to add the mutant aspect on the playa. As mentioned extra cooling would only help.. along with a beefy alternator and some spare batteries handy. One method is to use fabric over your frame to mutate the vehicle so it isn't recognizable. This can also be backlit for nightime use. I would only use steel for framework thats load bearing.. you dont want a collapse on the playa with ppl on top. Framework can be added on the playa to keep the vehicle "street legal" before you get there.

If you must stay smallish and go for the taxi thing look into golf cart, moped based vehicles. This will allow for the smaller size and me it available for towing on a trailer. The motorsysle methos is really dandy if you want a longer vehicle with more balls to handle the 8 folks you want for your capacity needs without cooking off a smaller engine.

Of course jet engines are always preferable to any other kind of power.. especially pulsejets since they have a nice sound.
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Post by Elorrum » Tue Sep 16, 2008 7:03 pm

I can't find the post, but the person who made the cow skull car, very cool, built an elaborate but compactable superstructure over the car she drove in with, and covered it with the fabric skull and horns. On my way to the portapotties, I saw a car, and on the way back, I saw a cow skull mutant vehicle. So mutation could be an issue of good camouflage, and not necessarily automotive engineering.

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Post by geekster » Tue Sep 16, 2008 7:25 pm

Often the alternator one has is really powerful enough, the problem is that people cruise around at little above idle and the alternator never gets to its optimum RPM. The field current is higher in order to keep up the power level at low RPM and that causes hotter internal temperatures than normal and can result in premature failure of diodes and windings. The trick is to get the alternator spinning faster at lower engine RPM, same with the water pump. These are the same tricks used for parade vehicles. Overheating and low alternator output is a problem with them as well. This is particularly true at night with headlights and other power drains for illumination, music, etc.

A larger main drive pulley will help everything out, power steering if you have it, alternator, water pump, etc. What you want to do is increase the ratio of drive pulley diameter to driven pulley diameter. I see a lot of people out there who have alternator problems even with high output units when they might be able to use what they already have if they could get it to spin faster at low vehicle speed.
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Post by LeChatNoir » Tue Sep 16, 2008 7:55 pm

Grazelda,

It may be more work than you're interested in putting into research efforts, but we sussed out a lot of the driveline issues you may also be facing over in this thread. It’s loooong and often full of hot air, but you may find some of it helpful to you.

The vehicle in the thread was strictly a human powered vehicle in 2007, weighing an estimated 1800-2000 lbs (I really should scale the damn thing). It rolled at +/- 2.2mph and carried up to 8 people with 4 pumping the thing along. At one point we also towed a piano on casters with the player and a girl dancing on top of it.

I’ve heard that a human can generate 0.3Hp under ideal conditions, so that means +/- 1.2Hp moving that much weight. You can do a lot of things with low gearing, but it was maxing us out. We’d have never have gotten to 5Mph. At one point I changed the gearing to give us around 3.5mph and it was just too much. Even a headwind at 2.2 made us really have to work it. For 2008 it was motorized with an old single cylinder engine. The engine was rated at 1-¾ Hp. After a tune up mid-week, it move 6 people at around 3.5 mph pretty easily on good, flat playa. The dunes were tricky and at a couple of points we had to pump it by hand to help it along in the deep stuff.

My long winded point is that if you can deal with making a working drive train, you can do a lot with smaller engines. From practical experience on the playa I think 10Hp+ is a great area to be in for your project. Worst case, you'll know if too many people are on it and can adjust your payload accordingly.

Old welders/generators (8500 watt or more) usually have Mid-teens Hp engines. If you could find one of them, or heck… even check with Northern Tool for new ones. I just saw one in their catalog, a 12 Hp LCT for $399. And a 13.5Hp Briggs for $649... Both brand new. Check local tractor supply places too. They usually stock some engines ready to go for around the same prices.

Go with the biggest thing you can get within reason. A little more power is better than a little less. We had to use 1-3/4Hp because that’s all we could find fitting the need of that particular creation. The 3Hp antique engines weighed in at around 450-500lbs. The 1-¾ was a feathery 190lbs or so.

Also, the biggest problem you’ll face with a straight axle vehicle where the axle is powered will be dealing with the outter wheel turning faster in a turn. You need some sort of over-running clutch or something similar to get around this. Or you could power a single rear wheel, but then there are balance issues.

If I can help at all, please don't hesitate to ask. And feel free to chime in on any of the "Contraption" threads (in both the 2008 and 2009 Art & Performance areas) and tell about your creation!

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Post by geekster » Tue Sep 16, 2008 8:12 pm

Surplus Center out of Lincoln, Nebraska has transaxles and at least one differential available mail order.

LINK
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Re: Mutant vehicle - figuring horsepower required?

Post by falk » Tue Sep 16, 2008 8:35 pm

zabsinth wrote:Let me get this strait - you have the skill to build this machine and attach an engine and transmission, but you don't have a powertrain in mind already? Sheesh....
Why sheesh? He doesn't have a powertrain in mind already because he's in the process of choosing one. He's asking for advice.

So am I, actually. I think my MV will weigh 2000 lbs next year. It will need between 4 and 7 horsepower, depending on how bad I think the playa conditions will be and how much acceleration I want.

Here's an on-line calculator that I found very helpful:

http://buggies.builtforfun.co.uk/Calculator/index.html

Now on to the next questions: If I use an electric motor, how long will batteries last? If I go with gasoline, where can I find a reasonably cheap, reliable, and quiet 4-HP motor?

Now is a good time to be asking these questions.

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Post by falk » Tue Sep 16, 2008 8:39 pm

dragonfly Jafe wrote:You can ball park it by doing a quick energy calculation....
You also need to factor in rolling resistance. That turns out to be the key factor due to the soft playa. The calculator I linked to above deals with it.

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Post by LeChatNoir » Tue Sep 16, 2008 8:54 pm

falk wrote:
dragonfly Jafe wrote:You can ball park it by doing a quick energy calculation....
You also need to factor in rolling resistance. That turns out to be the key factor due to the soft playa. The calculator I linked to above deals with it.
Rolling resistance makes it surprisingly tough very quickly. Those dunes this year were something else.

And again, check with Northern, or preferably a local tractor supply place for small engines. You can add mufflers without much issue. The thinner air on the playa will probably affect your performance more than a better muffler.
The New and Improved Black Cat... now with 25% more blather

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LeChatNoir
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Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2003 8:52 am
Location: Louisville, Ky

Post by LeChatNoir » Tue Sep 16, 2008 8:58 pm

Great calculator, by the way.

Thanks for sharing that.

Oh... and wid on th eplaya makes a big difference too. A head wind can make it tough on you, too.
The New and Improved Black Cat... now with 25% more blather

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