Immigration, good or bad

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 12:20 pm

Big high-tech companies can bring in foreign workers under H-1B Visas, and these are certainly jobs that Americans want to do.

Ask someone who is bringing in your produce if he can actually find any legal workers who will do the work at ANY price. The homeless? Good luck.

The federal government needs to open job offices in Mexican cities near the border. Any legitimate company in the US (be they agribusiness or Home Depot) can compile a list of requirements for guest workers, the offices in Mexico will fill the jobs and send the workers to the job site.

No coyotes bringing people up through the border illegally, no immigrant families trekking through the desert and dying there. Best yet, the guest workers will have full identification and be required to pay tax on earnings and their employers will be required to comply with labor laws.

Ignoring it, building higher walls around our country, or slinging mud won't make the problem go away.

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 4:09 pm

Ugly, that is a good plan. It would have to be backed and implemented by our Fascist GOV which is controlled by business,,,of course. The corporate mentality has no interest in paying a living wage. Your plan would tend to lift wages because industry would no longer have access to an endless river of grunts to be cycled through the labor market.
There are new things on the horizon. 1 guy has a grape picker that will do the work of 40. http://www.oregonlive.com/metro/oregoni ... xml&coll=7
Others are building and designing robot pickers; http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,295965,00.html As agriculture becomes more targeted by technology, it should reduce the number of workers needed.
Of course, there are still lots of jobs in other niches that Americans are too good to do.
My opinion is that Americans have become too spoiled. They consider themselves above doing manual labor. I picked pumpkins when I was a kid. It didn't hurt me.
Forget the bogus numbers from GOV. By measuring industrial and commercial output, America is in recession. California said that they had a 3 billion $ cushion. Then a few months later, they recanted and said that they were 10 billion in the red. Then a few weeks later, they said that they were 14 billion in the hole. Where is it going to stop?
Californians better learn to do manual labor because GOV can no longer afford a social net. The California budget went up 40% this year. 39% was to pay debt service. The piper has come to collect and we can no longer borrow to pay him. California is seeing tent cities spring up everywhere, both formal and informal http://www.guardian.co.uk/feedarticle?id=7170119 Food insecurity is now reported at 13 % in the US. If Americans don't learn to get off their high horse and do real work, they're going to get quite hungry. When this country started out, the govenor of Virginia colony made it simple. He decreed "if they won't work, they won't eat." It may get tough for a lot more people.

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 11:47 am

I am not too impressed by those who look at the statistics and tell me that I should not have a job.

Maybe I'm like Han Solo in that way.

I have a good job, therefore I am not having a recession. When I was without a job, I had a recession.

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:32 pm

Dougly, as the western world careens along inventing more and more labor saving mechanisms, there are more and more niches that are eliminated. Apparently, you're in a niche that is doing well.
Western GOV/business is working harder and harder at institutionalising planned obsolescence. Everything is made to fall apart just to conserve employment. This requires an ever increasing energy imput. As energy prices go up, the resulting inflation raises prices and cuts back sales. It's a self-reinforcing mechanism. Keynesian economics requires cheap labor to keep this from happening.
American capitalism is so bloated that it can't survive without huge inputs of capital and cheap labor. The capital is drying up because we took junk bonds and rated them AAA,,,, and sold them to foreigners.
The various states are passing their own immigration laws because the FED GOV is legislating at the bidding of BIG CORP. BIG CORP doesn't want any lessening of immigration.
Arizona is the big mover here. As the states cut off immigration, BIG CORP is going to eat shit from being cut off from both capital and labor. BIG AG is also going to eat shit because the central staes above the Oglalla aquifer are out of water. The job market is going to do a lot of adjustment.
On the balance, I'd say that the US should have limited immigration so that it has more control over depletion of resources. Much as GOV hates the idea, commerce is going to have to take a back seat to resource conservation, Dan

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 7:37 pm

This is a very long but, eye-opening article. http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007760

Simon of the Playa · Post by **Simon of the Playa** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 5:42 am

we are all immigrants, unless you are a native american....

so, where does ANYONE get off telling ANYONE else that they cant come to the land of the free?

KEEP CROSSING AMIGOS, KEEP CROSSING!

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 7:54 am

well.......
even the "native americans" walked here from somewhere else.......maybe a long time ago, but...........
and, there is evidence of indo-eurpoean travelers in ancient times, as well......

I'd just say we're all imigrants........
Can't blame anyone for wanting to come here.
I'd just appreciate if they'd play nice...........and I understand, most do.....

Post by **Elderberry** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:12 am

can't sit still wrote:On the balance, I'd say that the US should have limited immigration so that it has more control over depletion of resources. Much as GOV hates the idea, commerce is going to have to take a back seat to resource conservation, Dan

The number of people (both legal and illegal) that immigrate to the US annually is under 2 million. The annual birthrate in the US is over 4 million. If the government is so concerned with conserving resources don't you think that the birthrate should also be regulated?

JK

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 9:29 am

The US birthrate is not adequate to maintain the population. Without immigration, our population declines. Have you read the link I posted above? Japan has a serious pop decline.
All people are equal in the eyes of the law. That's where it ends. I'd rather see the US population increase with intelligent hard-working people rather than a bunch of useless slackers.
You can say what you want about the Amerinds but, that's nature's way. She supercedes less competitive cultures and peoples. The Chinese who settled Japan superceded the Ainu. Cro-Magnon had his day. The Maori and aboriginies were outside settlers who are now being supplanted. The Anglo-Saxon is having his day.
As long as we don't enter a new ice age, he'll continue to rule. Someday, it might revert to hunter-gatherers again.

Post by **Elderberry** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 9:36 am

can't sit still wrote: The Anglo-Saxon is having his day.
As long as we don't enter a new ice age, he'll continue to rule. Someday, it might revert to hunter-gatherers again.

You are soooo wrong. A large part of THIS COUNTRY'S scientific, medical and technical advances have been because of Asian and Indian immigrants--and that's a fact!

JK

cowboyangel · Post by **cowboyangel** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 11:10 am

forget about immigration, worry rather about "emigration", "financial emigration"...the flight of US capital to offshore accounts, anti-patriotic off shore tax shelters, huge oil company subsidies, tax breaks for the rich, these are our real enemies friend....

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 11:11 am

open those gates up!!!

Let 'em all in..

They can pay for the lazy welfair sucking post baby boomer generation..

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 6:19 pm

"Global Civil War

Europe has been the primary staging ground for one cold and two hot world wars. It could become a major battlefield in an Islamic or Multicultural world war, too. A world war is already simmering, with Muslims clashes against Russia, Europe, Israel, China, India, the USA and Southeast Asia. Once the fighting starts in Europe, it could spread outside the continent and ignite a world war. This is the scenario of ï¿½global civil warï¿½."

"Both Thailand and the Philippines, countries where the Muslim population is not much larger than it is in some Western European countries, are facing war. Countries such as France, Holland and Sweden could soon reach a point where the Muslim population will create something akin to civil war, as it already has in the above-mentioned nations."

"Muslim blogs are calling for violence against the Jews, the whites and the well-to-do. They say, ï¿½We must burn France, as Hamas will burn Israel.ï¿½ The growth of the Islamic population is explosive. According to some, one out of three babies born in France is now a Muslim. Around 70% of French prisoners are Muslims"

monkey · Post by **monkey** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 6:30 pm

The earth will be all one for better or worse eventually. Just depends on how long we want to take to get there.

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 6:48 pm

Have no doubts, It will be much worse if the world is muslim. They have rejected science, technology and learning. They have rejected birth control.
A world without science and technology is a world without modern agriculture. Just imagine a world with unlimited reproduction but, without tractors.,,,, without water-treatment plants or sewage disposal.
The muslim world was the center of learning many centuries ago. They turned their backs on education. The muslims prefer an agrarian life with tribal organization and the inevitable tribal warfare. Imagine living under sharia law.
It depends of course if one is living as Sunni or as Shia. Definitely no Burning man

cowboyangel · Post by **cowboyangel** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 11:37 am

...not to mention the pope and his anti-birth control laws for 1/6th of the worlds population.

cowboyangel · Post by **cowboyangel** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 11:38 am

...not to mention the pope and his anti-birth control laws for 1/6th of the worlds population.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/4243727.stm

Oldguy · Post by **Oldguy** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 12:05 pm

I heard on NPR ( National public Radio ) this morning on the " Wait, wait Show" that a Japanese business organization is advocating giving workers early outs so that they can go home and procreate.

Birthrate is down on the islands and business is concerned about their ageing workforce. They want workers to produce the next generation of employees.

Perhaps this is not a bad idea, babies create demand for products. New immigrants also need stuff. Buy your cars, washing machines, and bbqs. Move in to those houses with lowered costs.

OK burners, let's save America. Make them babies...and hire some folks to nanny, and to fill homes.

Simon of the Playa · Post by **Simon of the Playa** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 2:18 pm

Post by **mdmf007** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 3:33 pm

Is immigration good or bad?

Well IMO its based on context, case in point:

Immigration good for the people landing on the east coast hundreds of years ago.

bad for the current residents.

Liz Estrada · Post by **Liz Estrada** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 4:42 pm

i cant STAND mexicans.

anymore.

Thecatman · Post by **Thecatman** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 7:07 pm

Legal imigration is OK but the illegals have got to go. They're milking or system dry which is a cotributing factor to the economic situation we're in. My granparants came here from Germany after WWI and did legally. My wifes mother and grandmother came here from Germany after WWII and did it legally.

Post by **mdmf007** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 3:40 am

Problem with simply kicking out the illegal immirants is in the fact that many families have illegal parents, and legal (US born) children. Whats to be done there?

You would also crush agriculture as stated before. What american is willing to pick fruit or produce for 4-5 bucks an hour at best? nope 12 an hour is what they will want - yo unow just tripled thr price of labor. Now your grocery bill goes from 100 - 180 or more.

The grass is greener on the other side of the fence is certainly true. in this case that fence is the US border. I agree it should be strengthened and no illegal immigration should take place.

Most illegals simply want a better life, the minority are crossing for nefarious reasons.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 6:56 am

I agree, and, that the nefarious minority ruin it for the rest.....
so a stronger border guard, IMHO, would help all.

But, the Canadian border is very large and rugged........

SilverOrange · Post by **SilverOrange** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 8:55 am

I lived in San Diego for many years and spent a lot of time out in the desert. One of our favorite places to go shooting was right on the border. For those of you that have never been there most of the border consists of a three strand barbed wire fence (where it's still standing). I routinely stepped into Mexico to take a piss. Until our borders are secured there is absolutely no way to stop illegal immigration. I have nothing against immigration, but illegal is illegal.

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,

With conquering limbs astride from land to land;

Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand

A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame

Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name

Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand

Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command

The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she

With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Thecatman · Post by **Thecatman** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 2:48 pm

We need to abolish the anchor baby law

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 5:11 pm

that'd be tough........since, if someone is born here they're, by by definition, American.
Now, send the parents home, and, if they want to take the kid.....they can, of course, but, don't grant them citizenship,.......

or, is that what you mean?

cowboyangel · Post by **cowboyangel** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 5:46 pm

"Latinos-Remaking America"
by, Marcelo M. Suarez-Oroszco and Mariela M. Paez

A collection of scholarly studies on immigration, stereotypes and common misconceptions about Latino immigration to America and Latinos living and working here. This thread can use this.

Post by **mdmf007** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 6:19 pm

ygmir wrote:that'd be tough........since, if someone is born here they're, by by definition, American.
Now, send the parents home, and, if they want to take the kid.....they can, of course, but, don't grant them citizenship,.......

or, is that what you mean?

But now your denying a fundemental right that a United States Citizen has of being born in the US, and that is the rights and freedoms that come with being born here.

To deport the parents, and give them the choice of leaving or taking the resident child is not a choice at all - all it does now is exile a US citizen, The very definition of a Hobsons choice.

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 7:11 pm

Not all countries give automatic citizenship to someone born within their borders.
The problem with most of the Latinos is that they left their own home country because they didn't have opportunities. I spent 10 years driving around Mexico [5 months a year] While many of them have a very good work ethic, they don't have much education or native talent. They could never qualify for an H-1 visa.
Their incentive and motivation count for a lot. Fact is, so many jobs have been lost to automation, there are fewer and fewer jobs open to them. Los Angeles spent $ 710,000 to do a study on workers qualifications. They came to the conclusion that many candidates didn't have the skills that employers wanted.

While some of our immigration policy is driven by shortages in a few areas, this isn't true of all immigration. Our current accursed economic system,,, Keynesian economics, demands an ever-increasing growth in both population and credit. When Americans cut back on the size of their families, the immigration floodgates had to be opened to make up the difference. This was done to hold down wages, pay for SS and to increase the pop/money base.

The big problem is that Keynesian economics has a fatal flaw. You can't expand forever. Also Keynes demands a gradual takeover of capital by GOV. This is the shortcut way to gradual socialism. What the shitheads in the Fabian Society seemed to forget is that GOV is supremely wasteful. The end result isn't a perfectly humming corporatocracy or a harmonious socialist state.

The end result is disaster;
http://www.nolanchart.com/article5927.html

So, while immigration itself isn't bad, the country is far better off if the immigrants are pulling the country forward. We recently took in 7,000 Somalis who had spent their entire lives in a refugee camp. I don't see them as a valuable addition. It was OK to take in the huddled masses when the country needed a lot more physical laborers. Today, they're redundant..... supply and demand.