Advantage Flight Cancellation and (lack of) refund :-(

Playapixie · Post by **Playapixie** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 7:08 pm

FYI:

I booked a flight from BRC to Reno via Advantage Flight (a charter company that was doing shuttles) for Monday Sept 1 at 2pm. I arrived at the BRC Airport Monday afternoon at 1:30 (as my reservation requested), only to find that all of their flights were cancelled due to mechanical difficulties (and had been cancelled at least one day earlier). Despite the fact that I was registered at Playa Info all week, had checked for messages at playa info both sunday afternoon and monday morning, and was camped at a major theme camp (where they could easily have left a message), no attempt was made to contact me and make me aware of the cancellation.

After waiting 2 hours at the BRC airport, they did eventually shuttle me by car to Reno, arriving in Reno almost 4 hours after my flight was scheduled to arrived there.

After several calls and emails to Advantage Flight, they eventually refunded $53 of my $189 ticket price (the "difference between ground transport cost and air charter price".)

Advantage Flight:
1) Failed to give notification of flight cancellation (despite several easy ways they could have gotten a message to me)
2) Charged me $136 for a ride to Reno in a gas-guzzling SUV (I could have gotten a free ride from any number of friends who left the playa for Reno on monday morning, had I known about the cancellation.)
3) Got me to Reno 4 hours later than planned (I could have been there in the morning had I gone with friends). I booked this flight in the first place as I needed to be home in Seattle as early as possible, and instead I arrived after 11PM.
4) Obviously I didn't get the benefit of the sight-seeing adventure over BRC, either

Personally, I believe that given the circumstances they should have offered a full refund. After several polite calls and emails to Advantage Flight, they refused to do any better than the $53 they refunded. Needless to say, I won't be flying Advantage Flight again.

Fly to/from BRC with Advantage Flight at your own risk...

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 9:05 pm

http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic. ... age+flight

Playapixie · Post by **Playapixie** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 9:43 pm

Wow, I sure wish I'd read that thread before I booked my flight.

That shows that not only do they provide poor service, they also lie. When I asked about any history of flight cancellations, I was told it had never happened, only that there had been an occasional short (1-2 hour) delay due to weather in the past. That linked thread indicates a history of just this sort of cancellation.

I wonder if Reno has a Better Business Beauro?

LeChatNoir · Post by **LeChatNoir** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 9:57 pm

Did you read the entire thread?

ETA: I'm honestly asking. No smart-ass tone intended.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:48 am

That was the same flight.

Post by **Elderberry** » Wed Sep 24, 2008 10:21 am

Playapixie wrote:Wow, I sure wish I'd read that thread before I booked my flight.

That shows that not only do they provide poor service, they also lie. When I asked about any history of flight cancellations, I was told it had never happened, only that there had been an occasional short (1-2 hour) delay due to weather in the past. That linked thread indicates a history of just this sort of cancellation.

I wonder if Reno has a Better Business Beauro?

It appears that reading that post before booking your flight would have been impossible; unless of course you were psychic.

I really do not understand how there is any complaint in either post. You are flying into BURNING MAN. NO PHONES. NO GOOD METHOD OF COMMUNICATION EVEN BETWEEN CAMPS. TERRIBLE WEATHER. A LANDING STRIP MARKED OUT ON THE DESERT FLOOR.

From what I read, they promised 'alternative transportation' should there be any problems and this was provided.

I think both posters need to have a more realistic view of this. The company posted their terms clearly before you decided to enter into a contract with them. END OF STORY

JK

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Wed Sep 24, 2008 10:37 am

So our airfield has no radio?

And they didn't lie about previous history?

Lying to get business may be actionable.

LeChatNoir · Post by **LeChatNoir** » Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:48 pm

Where did they lie about previous history?

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:59 pm

Playapixie wrote:Wow, I sure wish I'd read that thread before I booked my flight.

That shows that not only do they provide poor service, they also lie. When I asked about any history of flight cancellations, I was told it had never happened, only that there had been an occasional short (1-2 hour) delay due to weather in the past. That linked thread indicates a history of just this sort of cancellation.

I wonder if Reno has a Better Business Bureau?

Post by **Elderberry** » Wed Sep 24, 2008 1:21 pm

Was there something in the above linked post that I didn't read? Maybe up until that time they never had any incidents of the weather being so bad they had to cancel.

Where did this conclusion that they lied come from? Please point me to the exact post that says this happened prior to this year.

Thanks,

JK

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Wed Sep 24, 2008 1:52 pm

That thread is about this year, so I don't know if they are aware of previous cancellations or not.

Personally, I would not consider a partial refund reasonable.
There seems to be no effort, successful or not, to mitigate the problems.

Pointing to a contract that says they don't have to deliver as promised, is not compelling to me.
Quite the contrary really.

LeChatNoir · Post by **LeChatNoir** » Wed Sep 24, 2008 2:21 pm

Pointing to a contract that says they don't have to deliver as promised, is not compelling to me.

As I understand it they did deliver as promised by getting the customer to Reno. Frustrating as it may be to the customer, not in the way they'd hoped, but still got them there per the contract both parties agreed to.

Post by **Elderberry** » Wed Sep 24, 2008 3:07 pm

LeChatNoir wrote:
Pointing to a contract that says they don't have to deliver as promised, is not compelling to me.
As I understand it they did deliver as promised by getting the customer to Reno. Frustrating as it may be to the customer, not in the way they'd hoped, but still got them there per the contract both parties agreed to.

This exactly correct. BOTH parties agreed to how this would be handled before hand by signing the agreement. If they read the contract and didn't like how these situations were handled, they did not have to sign it to begin with and could have arranged their own alternate means of transport both to and from.

If they didn't read the contract before they signed it--well...I guess that's just too bad for them. The company delivered everything they promised exactly how they promised it.

END OF STORY

JK

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Wed Sep 24, 2008 3:35 pm

Many contracts by businesses are outrageously written and go so far as to not actually be contracts in a technical sense.
I was offered one that didn't obligate the other person to anything at all.
Many are not enforceable at all.
Just because you write it down, doesn't mean it makes any sense.
Did customers believe they were buying a flight to Reno?
Did they suffer financial loss when they didn't get one?

The contract situation is so bad that it is insulting to simply say "it's in the contract".

Read a cellphone contract all the way through.
They deceive people by refusing to give you a contract until you sign.
The contract is now called "Terms and Conditions" and is very difficult to get in many cases.
I reviewed them all for a friend.
And they all suck.
Some just less than others.

When I go into the hospital, I cross out huge sections of the medical waivers area.
I have yet to have one objection to my doing that.
That's because they know those sections have no standing and it is unethical to even try to slide them in.

These days businesses stick all sorts of ridiculous bullshit in small print into contracts hoping to slip things in.
The primary purpose is to intimidate unhappy customers.

No contract is valid until a court says it is in a case in question.
One sided contracts that don't lead to a mutual understanding of reasonable terms, may not be looked on kindly in court.
Most of the nonsense is not written for court though.

I know zero of what was in this contract.
But do you think people pay Advantage Flight for an expensive car ride?

Don't forget that Advantage is required to try to mitigate the problem for customers to the best of their ability, no matter what the contract says.

If they did, they should have no problem.
Some states offer special protection to consumers too.

If it was my business, I would have refunded the money, tried to concierge any flight issues and offered a discount on the next trip (hoping there is one).
But that's just my opinion, and it would be completely out of my own self interest in future profits.

Post by **Elderberry** » Wed Sep 24, 2008 3:52 pm

Hmmm....I wonder what Judge Judy would say.

JK

betrdanevr · Post by **betrdanevr** » Wed Sep 24, 2008 3:55 pm

jkisha wrote:Hmmm....I wonder what Judge Judy would say.

JK

I know! I know!

She'd say pass up the Kleenex!

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Wed Sep 24, 2008 6:31 pm

gyre wrote:
Playapixie wrote:Wow, I sure wish I'd read that thread before I booked my flight.

That shows that not only do they provide poor service, they also lie. When I asked about any history of flight cancellations, I was told it had never happened, only that there had been an occasional short (1-2 hour) delay due to weather in the past. That linked thread indicates a history of just this sort of cancellation.

I wonder if Reno has a Better Business Bureau?

But there weren't two separate instances of this happening. It never happened before this year on this flight. Playapixie was on the same flight as that other person's parents. So it wasn't a lie when they said so.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Wed Sep 24, 2008 6:46 pm

gyre wrote:That thread is about this year, so I don't know if they are aware of previous cancellations or not.

If they were only referring to that thread, then yes, they were mistaken.

Playapixie · Post by **Playapixie** » Wed Sep 24, 2008 7:51 pm

Whoops, my mistake. I thought that referenced post was written in 2007 (I was looking at the poster's date of joining ePlaya, though, not the date they posted). So yes, it seems we are talking about the same day. I don't know of previous instances of problems with their flights, so I was incorrect in saying that they'd lied about their history. My apology for that. However, when I asked their employee about the likelihood of that happening, prior to booking my flight, her response was that the worst that had ever happened in the past was a few hour delays. No mention that I wouldn't get a refund in the event that they couldn't fly me off the playa.

Yes, I'm irritated that I ended up paying $136 for a very late ground ride to Reno when I was expecting to fly over the Black Rock Desert. That's more money than my entire trip from Seattle to Black Rock cost on the way to Burning Man (I paid $125 for gas/expenses to ride down with 4 friends, including towing a trailer with all of our stuff in it). So yes, I think that $136 just to Reno is ridiculously overpriced. Even more so when I consider that I could have had a much earlier ride to Reno on monday morning with a variety of friends heading that way, for free, if I'd known about the cancelled flight in advance.

I don't accept that it's difficult to reach people on the playa. There is a computer messaging system at Playa Info at Center Camp, which I was registered at all week, and I checked for messages both sunday afternoon and monday morning. The least the could have done was left me message about the cancellation. Then, even if they had still refused to refund the ticket, at least I'd have saved hours of my time by getting off the playa at sunrise on monday.

Anyhow, I really don't care if you think I'm justified in my dissatisfaction or not. I'm just telling people what happened so they can decide for themselves if they want to fly on Advantage Flight. Personally, I sure won't book with them again.

pinemom · Post by **pinemom** » Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:44 am

Some one call a WHAAAAAAAAAMMMMbulance!

Guidelines Folks.....Guidelines!

When one makes a PLAN at Burningman..prior to...or during ...or after ...towards next year....it will go wrong/or different/ sideways////

One knows...how strange the world really is, and one knows how many things dont go according to a PLAN.
If you have Guidelines to any situation, you also have back up guidelines...JUST IN CASE!!!!!

In 2007, it was impossible for any planes to get in or out of BRC on a couple of days in a row...REMEMBER?????

Due to weather related issues, beyond their control!!!!!!!!
Mother Nature is a funny fucking bitch aint she!!

The whining....yes...WHINING Im hearing is just down right...DEFAULT speaking.

I like to take my burner self into default and behave like that all year....
Try it sometime...you'll find that even frustrating $$$ consuming issues, dont get to you as bad as they did in your past.

Why do we run to the desert once a year, try to suck every wonderful moment we can out of those days? Because we wish it was like that out in Defaultia...guess what...you can make parts of it like that yourself...
Everyone around you not smiling....smile at them...it really is contagious!
Help someone! Do something for someone appreciation unheeded...
Come on folks...Your a burner. Be radically self reliant...RIGHT?

And woah...the $$$ you lost. If the experience wasnt worth it...thats why people Gave you idea's on what to do with your money...that has a contract that you will get what you paid for.

My time spent on that wonderful black rock desert is worth everything we pay.....plus 10 times more.
136.00 whaaaaaa

move the decimal over....13,600.00 is what we spent this year and it took us 2 trips both ways to get all our gear in and out.
WAAAAAAAAAAAA!
And we are "lower middle" class in default terms.
Its what you want. make a decesion. Dont be whiney! Get over it!

Cross posted for miss Karlene too!

betrdanevr · Post by **betrdanevr** » Thu Sep 25, 2008 1:56 pm

Wooohoooo for Pinemom!

I like that. I like that a lot.

mojo · Post by **mojo** » Thu Sep 25, 2008 2:38 pm

pinemom wrote:
....13,600.00 is what we spent this year and it took us 2 trips both ways to get all our gear in and out.

Cross posted for miss Karlene too!

...And I know you and TITWI must have spent a gazillion man-hours working on all the projects, fire spinning, etc... Your time is your most valuable commodity and you gave it all year long.

I have been at the mercy of the big airlines many times - cancelled flights, overnignt delays, etc. Ever had to spend the night in an airport seat with no offer of renumeration from the airline? It happens all the time. I think Advantage did as well as could be expected. You seem to be disturbed that Advantage did not find you to tell you their change of plan - major airlines Amtrak routinely busses passengers when their trains can't run. Trip interruption is one of the risks of travel and Advantage takes a lot of financial risks just to provide service to BRC. When someone loses track of time or can't get their shit together in time to make their flight, losing that seat and having to reschedule on such small planes is a big deal. Maintaining equipment that is exposed to playa conditions is a big deal too.

ZaphodBurner · Post by **ZaphodBurner** » Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:50 pm

If the weather or airstrip conditions sucked there was nothing they could do but offer you an alternative ride or let your ass sit out there until the conditions cleared. The fastest alternative would have been by bus, otherwise they wouldn't have paid some schmoe to drive out there and back, plus gas, etc.

I'm a commercial pilot, and, believe me: There is no margin of error worth your $136. By the end of the week there were two airplanes out there worth well over $150,000--possibly twice that--being disassembled to be loaded into trucks because of the playa conditions. (I think in both cases the nosewheel collapsed in playa serpents. It was bad out there.) The playa took a third-to-half-million-dollar toll on airplanes out there this year but fortunately it took no lives.

"Fly to/from BRC with Advantage Flight at your own risk..."

Should read "Fly to/from BRC at your own risk." There's no guarantee that mother nature is going to simply spectate. Also, if the airplane had mechanical problems, they couldn't legally or responsibly fly you anyway. They fulfilled their mission which was to get you off the playa, and they didn't abandon you there. That's the absolute best -any- aviation company can guarantee you because airplanes are airplanes.

-c

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Thu Sep 25, 2008 7:12 pm

Just remember the next time there's an air disaster that all those dead passengers would have bitched up a storm if the flight had been cancelled.

LeChatNoir · Post by **LeChatNoir** » Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:31 pm

ZaphodBurner wrote:There is no margin of error worth your $136.

Heh Heh... $136. That was almost enough for one of the many tanks of diesel fuel this year.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:16 am

I'm not really following this.
Everybody spends default cash to get there, so she should bliss her cash away or she isn't burny enough?
Not following that.
Is it burny to brag about how expensive your trip was, so someone else's is somehow less insignificant?
Just trying to make some sense of these points.

No one is advocating flights in bad weather.
I tell people not to fly in bad weather on anything.
And I have paid considerably more to fly on planes with better maintenance scheduling.

But if you can't deliver and charge $136 for a car ride and you didn't notify anyone (not that fucking hard to use a radio), then it's a fair complaint.

Potential customers can decide whether they are charging so little that they can't afford to give refunds and the low price is worth it, or not.

If they did what they should have, why have a problem with someone talking about what actually happened?

pinemom · Post by **pinemom** » Fri Sep 26, 2008 6:28 am

I will say I wasnt feeling good yesturday and yes...mizz snark came out.
I shouldnt have said waaaa.
I shouldnt have said shit.
I should have let this thread desolve to the bottom of the page.
What I saw being gripped about, I saw no reason. point A to B.

Yup mizz. snarky.
Apologeeze, sincerly.

I think though in the future, if your radical self reliance completely relies on someone else, and only one person/company...always have a back up.

LeChatNoir · Post by **LeChatNoir** » Fri Sep 26, 2008 2:51 pm

gyre wrote:I'm not really following this.
Everybody spends default cash to get there, so she should bliss her cash away or she isn't burny enough?

No, Noâ€¦ $136 comment was not to show that one person is â€œburnierâ€

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:22 pm

LeChatNoir wrote: Itâ€™s the same sentiment that you have in your responses to someone who complains about the long drive from the west coast.

Yeah, what's up with that anyway?
I met a girl one year who couldn't get out of work, so she was commuting back and forth from san francisco several times.
Gotta love that.

SF is a different world for burners, though it does lose a bit of that exotic flavor when you trip over burners everywhere you go.

Pinemom, I hope you're feeling better.
It seems to be peak allergy season where I am, though I don't know if there's a connection.