Prop 7

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Tue Oct 07, 2008 2:00 pm

California Proposition 7 regarding solar power
Yes on 7?
http://www.yeson7.net/

No on 7?
http://www.noprop7.com/

Or Seven of Nine?
http://www.animationalley.com/images/pr ... _trek9.jpg

MikeVDS · Post by **MikeVDS** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 12:06 pm

No on everything. I haven't looked into all of them hard enough but none of them seem to be worth my vote.

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:22 am

Sierra Club says NO:

Contains serious, inherent flaws that could get in the way of achieving its goal of 50% renewable fuels by 2025.
Actually works against Sierra Club-backed energy policies that would allow communities to choose the source of their energy.
Decreases environmental review of proposed power plants.

Weird. But I've seen weirder.

MikeVDS · Post by **MikeVDS** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 6:28 pm

Yep. The people I know who are really into pushing environmental protection are all opposed to 7, but I still stand by the no on everything. The ONLY time we should say yes is when it's something that needs to be done but is politically impossible or if our congress is acting way out of touch and interest with the common person. Otherwise why are we depending on the public to try to figure out these complex issues that can only be reversed by another proposition? You talk about bureaucracy being slow, the prop system is worse.

littleflower · Post by **littleflower** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 6:55 pm

the prop system is ridiculous. reading law is one of those most difficult things to do ... i could never stay awake reading all that crap, and i have worked in a tax job that required reading law. we are reduced to comparing arguments for and against! and yet i feel like i should read it ... uuuurrrrgggh!

i am also pretty much against all of them ... but especially the bond measures. if any of them pass ... with all of the financial mess and budget crises ... it will prove how utterly absurd the proposition system is. and yet, it's all we really have.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 7:27 pm

MikeVDS wrote:Yep. The people I know who are really into pushing environmental protection are all opposed to 7, but I still stand by the no on everything. The ONLY time we should say yes is when it's something that needs to be done but is politically impossible or if our congress is acting way out of touch and interest with the common person. Otherwise why are we depending on the public to try to figure out these complex issues that can only be reversed by another proposition? You talk about bureaucracy being slow, the prop system is worse.

yeah, but.........

then, the supreme court can overthrow even a proposition..........and have...........

I'd like the proposition system if it were 60% majority, and couldn't be thrown out by an opinionated court.............

It has merit in that it allows "the people" to directly legislate......
the dunces in congress certainly can't be trusted........

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:52 pm

First off, congress doesn't have propositions. State legislature do, but congress no.

Second, the court has to be able to dump injustices. I'm glad that there's a judge putting the feet to the fire of the California prison system for their crappy health care; face it, the majority of this state's population would be happy to let convicts rot in jail, regardless of whether they actually committed the crime and if there's a cheap and just as safe alternative to imprisonment. Racial issues, gay rights, and the us second amendment would be a wash without the courts' rulings.

3rd, I've given it some thought, and some sort of binding obligation for the legislature to work on the issue might be nice. The proposition system in CA sucks.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:24 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:First off, congress doesn't have propositions. State legislature do, but congress no.

Second, the court has to be able to dump injustices. I'm glad that there's a judge putting the feet to the fire of the California prison system for their crappy health care; face it, the majority of this state's population would be happy to let convicts rot in jail, regardless of whether they actually committed the crime and if there's a cheap and just as safe alternative to imprisonment. Racial issues, gay rights, and the us second amendment would be a wash without the courts' rulings.

3rd, I've given it some thought, and some sort of binding obligation for the legislature to work on the issue might be nice. The proposition system in CA sucks.

well,
I didn't say congress or legislatures had or used propositions...........
I said you can't trust legislature (state) or congress (u.s.) to do it mostly, so, it's good the people can........

was the crappy prison health care due to a proposition?
If not, it's not pertinent to my statement.
I was referring to propositions over the years, voted in by a majority of citizens, then thrown out by the court.......
I think the people should have the ultimate power.
and, if the majority want something, why shouldn't they get it?
and thus, my comment about 60 percent majority, so it'd be clear that "most" want it, whatever it is............
and, no one can help if people don't vote and participate, and therefore, aren't heard.......
so,
as is so often the case, at times, 10 percent of the populace could run the state........it might enthuse people to vote.........if they didn't like what was happening, but, thought they could actually change it by direct votes.......instead of relying on corrupt politicians to do their bidding......
I have no confidence in legislatures, congress, whatever, that are full of politicians to do anything right. When they do, I'm sure it's by accident........

I understand the need for them, though, and, therein lies my dilemma.....dang.......
term limits might go a long way to moderating corruption.....

When your refer to racial issues, gay rights, 2nd amendment, are you referring to them on a federal level?
If so, the proposition issue doesn't apply........but, it does at the state level.........in CA, I'm not sure about other states......

anyway, time to go to the bar for a quick toddy..........

thanks for the conversation.....

MikeVDS · Post by **MikeVDS** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 6:04 am

I was referring to propositions over the years, voted in by a majority of citizens, then thrown out by the court......

When the propositions are found to be illegal, yeah. That is a good thing.

I think the people should have the ultimate power.

I agree, but most of the propositions are bought. It's not responsible people really thinking about what it means and wondering why the state congress hasn't done this already. They are usually used to take away the rights of the minority or to fund some crazy project. If the people actually looked at the whole budget they would agree the prop shouldn't be funded over the things they'll force the legislature to cut, but that's not how it's presented.

and, if the majority want something, why shouldn't they get it?

If the majority wanted the minority to be killed off and their resources split, should they get it? If the majority wanted to allow slavery again, should we allow that? If the majority voted on each thing that they didn't really think about or understand, do you think we'd be in a better position? Can you name propositions that were actually beneficial to us? Most of the time lawyers and congressmen have trouble understanding completely what they are passing and the repercussions, I don't trust voters to be able to do that job and their record on the issue confirms that mistrust.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:05 am

good points, thanks MikeVDS.

I agree on a lot of what you say. A lot of the discussion is theory vs reality....
and, as I stated, I have a dilemma in this (and many) subject.

Like illegal propositions: In general, I think if "the people" want it, it can't be illegal.....majority rules and all that. But, as you say, some props are bought and paid for by nefarious characters.......I guess in my "dreamy" hope, the voters would see through those things.....

A huge part of the problem/solution to so many of these sorts of issues, would be an informed, participatory electorate......I left "intelligent" out, because, I think, no matter your I.Q. if you do your best to learn about something, you'll make a good decision, for you.

As pertains to the kill/rob, etc the minority of citizens:
Again, I think a participatory, informed electorate wouldn't do that.....
And again, the fear is that as low as 10 percent of the people can actually drive policy due to voter apathy....

But, I do see, what you say. It's a tough thing. That's part of why our system gives so much power to the minority political subdivision, to avoid something like that. Also, the supreme court.
I get it, I just don't necessarily agree with it and march in lock step with it....

bobfj40 · Post by **bobfj40** » Sat Oct 11, 2008 2:07 pm

I agree with you that ideally we'd have close to 100% informed voters and propositions would be a great idea, but in the same respect, we'd have good representatives so we wouldn't need props in the first place. Ironic that "prop" is a word for them.

I wish it was easier to replace our representatives, but how it works, Dems keep their districts and Repubs keep theirs. Even if someone is bad, the district thinks the opposition is worse, by default.

I dont' see one proposition worth the vote this year. I voted yes on only one in the last few years. Do you think one is worthwhile?

MikeVDS · Post by **MikeVDS** » Sat Oct 11, 2008 2:08 pm

oops. bob fj40 was mikevds logged in on the wrong account.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Sat Oct 11, 2008 5:27 pm

sock alert!!!!

hahahaha

I wish a good redistricting prop would materialize..........someday.......
I'd go for that......

I vote no on almost all props. and, especially ones that create new laws, increase taxes, and, spend more money........hahahaa

And,
I only drink alone when no one is with me........

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 9:30 am

California propositions are capricious. One law can be overturned with the next election, which can soon be overturned again. Makes CA a much too unstable place politically.

MikeVDS · Post by **MikeVDS** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 12:25 pm

No sock. It was my bro's computer and I didn't realize he was logged in.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 1:48 pm

MikeVDS wrote:No sock. It was my bro's computer and I didn't realize he was logged in.

dang,
thought I had a scoop.......hahahaha

goathead · Post by **goathead** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 2:17 pm

ygmir wrote:
MikeVDS wrote:No sock. It was my bro's computer and I didn't realize he was logged in.
dang,
thought I had a scoop.......hahahaha

You bought that awfully easy, what kind of Woodward are you?
Does he really have, no socks?

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 3:07 pm

Are we referring to the supreme court that has ruled you cannot own property in an american city, honest cops lie, you can be convicted of conspiracy without an actual conspiracy occurring and has allowed the loss of most personal rights of citizens?

Not impressed.

MikeVDS · Post by **MikeVDS** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 4:33 pm

Wrong supreme court actually. It's the CA supreme court that overturns the props we're discussing, but they have just as bad of a record depending on how you're looking at it.

Post by **Elderberry** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 5:10 pm

gyre wrote:Are we referring to the supreme court that has ruled you cannot own property in an american city, honest cops lie, you can be convicted of conspiracy without an actual conspiracy occurring and has allowed the loss of most personal rights of citizens?

Not impressed.

And I'll bet you're not a big supporter of the ACLU either?

JK

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 5:50 pm

Do you like any of the rulings I mentioned?

The aclu is a lot more complicated than people realize, more a group of individuals than a monolithic body, I think.
Sometimes I like what they do, sometimes I'm baffled.
It seems more like a clearing house for attorneys and potential clients than a group to me.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:38 pm

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... 002&sc=722

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:57 pm

Got any other Propositions of interest?

Proposition 69 anybody? (Well, no not ANY body, I'm just sayin'...)

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Wed Oct 29, 2008 5:12 pm

see,
you're always there, with restrictions.............and conditions..........