Screw the Banks and Investment Firms

[cowboyangel]

I don't think anything is safe. We just have to wait for the bottom to hit. It's a good time to take up burner values and help eachother.

[Simon of the Playa]

yeah, what Cowboy said. We will be All Right....as long as the drugs dont run out.


so, keeping in the tradition of BURNING STUFF, i am going to get my bong, flip on the bloomberg, and watch the morning funnies.


The Nikkei tanked last night....should be an interesting day as ben B. attempts to stop massive national Rectal Leakage by shoving his own thumb up his ass.

[ygmir]

I don't think anything is safe. We just have to wait for the bottom to hit. It's a good time to take up burner values and help eachother.

good thought, I might add, though, the thought: Help yourself, first.
Practice the radical self reliance........

People tend to ask for help, at times, to fast and to often........

[can't sit still]

Well B of A seems to be next on the hit list. They have $146 billion in short money that they need to roll over. Not so sure about takers. Citi is siting on $1 trillion in CDOs that are worthless for all practical purposes. It's expected to cost them about $80 billion. The monolines appear to be dead. The problem is systemic infection.
"Based on estimates by Goldman Sachs $200 billion of losses in the financial system lead to a contraction of credit of $2 trillion"
That is total BS. That would imply a leverage of 10--1. Lehman was at 50--1 when they blew. Who knows where the rest of the bastards were? NONE of the banks will loan to each other for more than 24 hours. They all drank deeply from the poisoned punchbowl of toxic credit.
"total losses in the financial system will add up to more than $1 trillion and the economic recession will become deeper, more protracted and severe. "
$1 trillion is based on a 10--1 leverage. Guess again ,,idiots.
The guru seems to be Nouriel Roubini. He's been right all along. I have no idea why the URL is so bloody long but, here it is;

http://www.rgemonitor.com/roubini-monit ... e_meltdown

[can't sit still]

This is getting more interesting every day. Lehman was a member of the FED. Now, they're a member of the DED.
The world banking families who are reportedly the backing for NWO may have over reached. Other than Lehman and Goldman and Rockefeller, Most of the banks are in Europe. The disastrous over leveraging here in the US is nothing compared to Europe. Not only that, the Euro isn't backed by anything,,, not even the phantom gold in Ft Knox.

"Also, Europe's financial system is extremely over-leveraged: The average leverage ratio of multinational European banks is, on average, 3 to 5 times greater than that of even the most highly leveraged U.S. commercial back – Citigroup, which stands at just above 19. That has already brought Iceland to the brink of bankruptcy.

All that makes me believe that the Maastricht Treaty, the European Central Bank and the Euro zone in general are structurally unprepared and incapable of coherently dealing with this financial crisis. And I would suggest that as the global decline digs deep, our financial markets could very well exhibit a relative strength surge.

The $700 billion dollar spending ticket is a U.S. taxpayer boondoggle for sure, but this number is just over 1% of the U.S. household net worth, and less than the annual amount the U.S. pays to import oil."

http://www.elliottwave.com/features/default.aspx?cat=mw

3 to 5 times more leveraged than the US.
The Euro was backed by the manufacturing capacity of it's members. India and China have a huge manufacturing capacity. India and China are NOT carrying the huge burden of social programs that Europe has.
Europe is TOAST!!

Right now, several central banks have cut rates to try to save the situation. The LIBOR has finally responded and gone lower. This will buy some time. It remains to be seen just how much time it buys.
With the labor forces of Brazil, Russia, India and China waiting in the wings, the manufacturing jobs are not going to come back.
Capital has no brain, heart or soul. It goes to where it it used most efficiently.
As Europe goes down in flames relying on an imaginary currency,,,, as China tries to absorb it's $1.4 trillion in bad bank loans, the capital may very well run to the US as being the least-worse haven.
The EU was a good idea on paper, but, it overlayed a whole new layer of GOV. Since GOV's main effect is to suck the lifeblood out of the economy, the EU banks overleveraged to support both the economy and the blood-sucking GOV.

Just as california is going down the tubes from trying to fund everything that the electorate could dream up, Europe will collapse under the weight of social programs and excessive GOV.
Sad, sad story.

[ygmir]

it almost sounds like our stock market might be a good investment.........if capital is fleeing here............
I just wish I knew about buying stocks and such on line..........

[Elderberry]

it almost sounds like our stock market might be a good investment.........if capital is fleeing here............
I just wish I knew about buying stocks and such on line..........

Just open up an account with any of the reputible online brokers. I use Schwab--one of the benefits is they refund ALL ATM fees on their bank debit card; fees are reasonable, help is available if you need it. And, as with most reputable on-line brokerages, they are pretty easy to figure out once you get started. You can set-up a 'watch' list and sort of get the feel for things as you are learning and reading.

JK

[ygmir]

Thanks JK,
I'll check that out.............

The other day, my friend bought AIG stock as it tanked, and, it went back up, doubled in fact, and, he sold, and made a bundle..........it all happened in a day, though.........
And then, it went back down........

[Elderberry]

Thanks JK,
I'll check that out.............

The other day, my friend bought AIG stock as it tanked, and, it went back up, doubled in fact, and, he sold, and made a bundle..........it all happened in a day, though.........
And then, it went back down........

Ya, some people are lucky that way. I'd lose my ass; and certainly don't recommend that type of investing--especially for someone new to it. For me it's always been a long term thing.

JK

[littleflower]

it almost sounds like our stock market might be a good investment.........if capital is fleeing here............
I just wish I knew about buying stocks and such on line..........

Just open up an account with any of the reputible online brokers. I use Schwab--one of the benefits is they refund ALL ATM fees on their bank debit card; fees are reasonable, help is available if you need it. And, as with most reputable on-line brokerages, they are pretty easy to figure out once you get started. You can set-up a 'watch' list and sort of get the feel for things as you are learning and reading.

JK

JK ... i use fidelity, they also pay the ATM fees ... and i am also a long timer. but what are schwab's fees? fidelity is 19.95 for little people like me.

ygmir ... it is easy to buy stuff ... the hard part is figuring out what! there is so much information... it's mindboggling ...

[littleflower]

ork ork ork the double post gremlin strikes again ....laisfhla;hvanjs kjkjhfsdjhvjfkvaj fwgh sjdf.

[Elderberry]

it almost sounds like our stock market might be a good investment.........if capital is fleeing here............
I just wish I knew about buying stocks and such on line..........

Just open up an account with any of the reputible online brokers. I use Schwab--one of the benefits is they refund ALL ATM fees on their bank debit card; fees are reasonable, help is available if you need it. And, as with most reputable on-line brokerages, they are pretty easy to figure out once you get started. You can set-up a 'watch' list and sort of get the feel for things as you are learning and reading.

JK

JK ... i use fidelity, they also pay the ATM fees ... and i am also a long timer. but what are schwab's fees? fidelity is 19.95 for little people like me.

ygmir ... it is easy to buy stuff ... the hard part is figuring out what! there is so much information... it's mindboggling ...

$12.95 for the little people. $8.95 if you have over $1M or make over 120 trades in a year.

JK

[cowboyangel]

all that is crap when deflation hits. Michael Hudson.

The Big Bank Job

The Insanity of the $700 Billion Giveaway

By Dr. Michael Hudson

Counterpunch

Sept. 25, 2008

The banksters’ plan now is for icing on the cake – to take Mr. Paulson’s $700 billion and run. It’s not a “bailout of the financial system.â€

[Simon of the Playa]

yes....and the very same people will swoop down and buy all of the "assets" from an RTC like entity at pennies on the dollar to complete this process of unlubricated rape of the American Citizen and our Economy.

"Oh, Hello Carlyle Group, Welcome, Blackstone TPG ET AL., Have a seat, what would you like to eat, it's On the House"

[can't sit still]

Cowboy angel, that is an absolutely fascinating article. The national progression towards bankruptcy has been slowed by automation but sped up by falling birth rates. It's a very interesting study. Since the bible nominally prevents usury, the jews naturally gravitated to the money-lending business. It's a bad rap that follows them around. Read "The Source" by Michner.

Automation combined with cheap energy has allowed very cheap production of goods. The problem for the rich is that wealth can only be expressed as paper money or physical things. There isn't enough gold or silver. The rich who accumulate wealth have to keep the wealth circulating because of the inevitability of inflation. They can also put their wealth in property but, that hasn't worked out too well historically.

When they own all the property, the masses cut their nuts off Since the wealth of the bankers has to be manifested as "things", the masses are kept employed producing things to multiply the wealth of the bankers. It takes longer to reach bankruptcy. This has resulted in a much higher standard of living for the masses.

The Bankers are in the trap where they have to constantly produce things to preserve their wealth. If they let too much of their wealth morph into instruments, they have a tendency to BLOW. The current problem is that falling birth rates have lowered the demand for things. Bankers didn't have a market for an ever increasing supply of things and factories for things, so, they shifted too much wealth into instruments.

The world is awash in instruments. The law of supply and demand is treating this oversupply very harshly. The bankers never worked out a good solution to automation. Machines do the producing and people do the consuming. The people don't have wages to buy goods. The war industries take up some of the slack by destroying some of the wealth but, it doesn't cure the problem.
The major dislocation at the moment is that the low wage people can't afford these things. The high wage people don't have a job and can't buy.

The Western bankers own way too much production for the available market. They created way too many debt instruments for the available capital. Both production capacity and debt instruments are going to drastically shrink.
The bankers have let their greed blind their vision. They concentrate on multiplying their wealth. They've forgotten that the only source of continuing wealth is from people having babies and people producing goods.

Automated factories will produce goods but, not wealth. The bankers are probably screwed in the end anyway. Keynesian economics and fractional reserve banking demand an ever-increasing population.
The shrinking populations in Japan and the West are going head-to-head with the loss of markets in the East. They have their own production.
The wealth of the bankers is ephemeral without babies and jobs. Japan is the perfect example. You can't suck wealth out of a moribund economy.

[Ugly Dougly]

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... s&refer=us

AIG Cancels Another Resort Meeting After Criticism (Update1)

By Erik Holm and Hugh Son

Oct. 9 (Bloomberg) -- American International Group Inc., the insurer that vowed to temper spending after hosting a conference at a California resort amid a federal bailout, scrapped a similar event planned for next week at a $400-a-night hotel.

The conference, scheduled to be held at the Ritz-Carlton in California's Half Moon Bay, was canceled today ``after a re- evaluation of the costs under the new circumstances,'' said spokesman Joe Norton. The White House, Congress and Barack Obama castigated AIG this week for spending $440,000 last month at the St. Regis resort in Monarch Beach.

AIG, which got an $85 billion loan from the U.S. government last month, may access an additional $37.8 billion from the Federal Reserve Bank of New York to ``replenish liquidity,'' the Fed said late yesterday. Chief Executive Officer Edward Liddy told Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson yesterday that the company will rethink expenses.

``I cannot fathom how in the same day -- the very same day that AIG asked the government for another $37.8 billion loan, the company would even consider moving forward with plans to host another large conference at another luxury resort,'' said Representative Elijah Cummings, a Maryland Democrat who criticized AIG earlier this week for the cost of the St. Regis conference.

`Really Bad Idea'

Next week's event at Half Moon Bay, about 30 miles south of San Francisco on the Pacific Ocean, aimed to ``motivate and educate'' about 150 independent agents who sell AIG coverage to high-end clients, spokesman Nicholas Ashooh said yesterday. The insurer hosts similar events ``around the world all the time,'' he said, as a way to reward self-employed agents. Norton said today he didn't yet know if AIG would cancel plans for other events.

AIG considered buying advertisements to explain its position, only to be told by its public-relations consultant, George Sard, that it would be ``a really bad idea.''

``To spend the taxpayer's money on an expensive ad campaign to apologize for how you used taxpayer money leaves you open to further attacks,'' Sard wrote in an e-mail yesterday to Ashooh. Sard, chief executive officer of New York-based Sard Verbinnen & Co., said the message was a private e-mail mistakenly sent to Bloomberg and wasn't intended to be a public statement.

``Whether the company's behavior is wrong on an absolute basis doesn't really matter right now,'' said Heather Elms, a business professor at the Kogod School of Business at American University in Washington. ``It's become a question of perception, and it seems that they're being viewed as behaving unethically.''

`Despicable' Expenses

White House spokeswoman Dana Perino yesterday called ``despicable'' expenses from the first gathering, a weeklong conference that began days after the U.S. agreed to give AIG the $85 billion. Those costs included $23,000 for spa services, according to Representative Henry Waxman, chairman of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee.

Obama, the Democratic presidential nominee, said during this week's debate with Republican candidate John McCain that AIG should repay the U.S. Treasury for the costs of the event.

``The Treasury should demand that money back and those executives should be fired,'' Obama said. As part of the loan agreement, AIG agreed to give a 79.9 percent ownership stake of the company to the federal government.

In his letter to Paulson, Liddy said the St. Regis gathering was planned ``many months'' before the Fed's initial loan to AIG. Next week's meeting was also planned before the loan, Ashooh said.

Standard Practice

``This sort of gathering has been standard practice in our industry for many years,'' Liddy wrote. ``Let me assure you that we are reevaluating the costs of all aspects of our operations in light of the new circumstances in which we are all operating.''

Cummings, who earlier this week urged Paulson to crack down on AIG's spending, said the Treasury secretary must ``publicly express his adamant commitment to ensuring that not a single penny of taxpayer dollars go toward funding this type of egregious expenditure.''

Receipts provided by Waxman for the earlier conference at the St. Regis were dated Sept. 22 through Sept. 30. AIG agreed to the $85 billion loan from the government on Sept. 16, ceding a 79.9 percent ownership interest to the U.S. government.

Vivian Deuschl, a spokeswoman for the Ritz-Carlton, declined to say how much AIG would pay for canceling the Half Moon Bay event, and said there was no ``across the board rule'' for such fees. ``It depends on how far out the meeting was, and other factors,'' she said in an interview.

To contact the reporter on this story: Erik Holm in New York at [email protected]; Hugh Son in New York at [email protected].

[Toolmaker]

[Elderberry]

``This sort of gathering has been standard practice in our industry for many years,'' Liddy wrote. ``Let me assure you that we are reevaluating the costs of all aspects of our operations in light of the new circumstances in which we are all operating.''

The fact that he would just come out and say something like this in such a seemingly nonchalant manner is disgusting. Golden Parachutes, Multi-Million dollar salaries, $25,000.00 spa treatments, spending investors and now tax payers dollars like it is water. They deserve to just go under. I would be willing to endure whatever it takes just for the satisfaction.

JK

[cowboyangel]

The right has for decades been systematically doing what it can to dismantle labor unions and some of the unions have helped this along with corruption and centralization of power. People need to get into the idea of organizing.
The last time there was a depression in this country, labor unions were strong and they fought back. We need new ways to organize, union democracy, and broader rules for forming labor unions. Stay tuned to http://labortech.net for our upcoming December conference. These are the things we talk about.
An injury to one, really truly, is an injury to all. Solidarity ought to become a religion, it's all we really have in the end.
[/url]

[can't sit still]

This is kinda interesting;
WND Exclusive MONEYNETDAILY
China stiffing America for $100 billion in debt
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php? ... geId=77687
If they want to play tit for tat, I'm sure that bush will accommodate them.
Word comes out that both Goldman and Morgan are tottering. They've extended the ban on short-selling but, so many people have been burned that nobody has the stomach to stay in when they smell blood. The regular stockholders are fleeing.
The FED is pissing money down a rathole to the tune of about $1 trillion a day.
Congress is in a hurry to get out of town. Nobody wants to be around when it blows. Actually, "suck" is more appropriate. The first Giant Sucking Sound was when the jobs left. The next Giant Sucking Sound will be when the investors leave. The US economy has lost $12 trillion in just the stock and housing markets.
bush ruled out closing the financials and banks but, he's obviously hopeless.
Another good link; http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthread ... #post53598
Dan

[can't sit still]

Well, the latest plan from GOV is to directly inject money into chosen banks. Think Paulson can get his bank on the list???? Part of this crash is an effort by the money powers to get rid of their competition. It's expected that half the banks will go bust. There are plenty of small banks still doing loans. If these loans aren't indexed for inflation, the originating banks will go bust later rather than sooner.
The long and the short of this is that John Q Public doesn't have a chance as long as the banking industry continues as it is. Cook has laid out a well thought out alternative;

How to Save the U.S. Economy

by Richard C. Cook



The crashing stock market has given its verdict. The financial rescue plan currently being implemented by the U.S. Treasury Department and the Federal Reserve System will fail to revitalize the producing economy, even with continued interest rate cuts. This is because the banking system is essentially a supply-side, trickle-down mechanism with a currency based on a pyramid of bank lending and debt. All the current plans being suggested by economists and others to save the financial system by varying degrees of tinkering are useless. Similarly useless is the pumping in of credit or liquidity by Treasury or the Federal Reserve because it is no more than new debt to roll over old debt.



The cause of the financial failure is that the producing and consumer economy is “maxed outâ€

[ygmir]

am I seeing a hammer and sickle there somewhere?............

[Box Burner]

yes....and the very same people will swoop down and buy all of the "assets" from an RTC like entity at pennies on the dollar to complete this process of unlubricated rape of the American Citizen and our Economy.

"Oh, Hello Carlyle Group, Welcome, Blackstone TPG ET AL., Have a seat, what would you like to eat, it's On the House"

this is nothing new. At the end of the Revolutionary War the soldiers and Militias were paid with script (Yankee dollars or vouchers, I forget which) that was essentially worthless at the time since the government had no money or assets. Many banks did the veterans a "service" by paying them 10 cents on the dollar for their vouchers. Years later, after they had bought up most of the vouchers, these same bankers took up the cry and lobbied congress to make good on the debt they owed to all of the soldiers and Militiamen who had served in the war. Do you think that any of them mentioned that they now held all the vouchers and the veterans would get no benefit from it? Do you think that there were many congressmen who did not know that the banks held all the notes? Or that there were not at least few congressmen who were connected with the banks and stood to gain from the paying of the poor veterans vouchers? Congress would have done the country a greater service by paying the banks only 2 cents on the dollar for the vouchers as a penalty for defrauding the veterans.

[Box Burner]

am I seeing a hammer and sickle there somewhere?............

Maybe not a hammer and sickle but something very close to it. You say the government is going to give me $1000 a month. And where is the gov going to get this money? Oh I know, Taxes. So how much more taxes am I going to have to pay and how much of those taxes are going to be skimmed off of the top for "administrative costs" before I get my $1000 back? you don't think the financial insittutions are going to pony up for it do you? I didn't think so!

[can't sit still]

If you've got the stomach for it, here's an interesting article;
http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article6826.html
"The top-down approach used to date aids the wealthy bankers, while the homeowners are denied aid".
cool word picture "To expect a top-down solution that actually relieves the housing inventory logjam is insane. That is like feeding a teenager with meals placed inside the human rectum, expecting nutrients to find their way to the rest of the body!"

"Banks distrust each other's collateral. The result is that eventually the US Economy will enter not a recession, not a depression, but a DISINTEGRATION PHASE. Despite Bernanke's studious efforts, borrowing from revisionist history, his liquidity is nothing more than bailouts at the top for the perpetrators of the housing bubble and mortgage debacle"
"The US public has bought this stupid ‘Trickle Down' philosophy for years, learning nothing"
"It is a systemic failure, marred by lost confidence and trust in the entire financial system. Expect foreigners soon to pull the rug from under the American syndicates in control"
Bon Chance
Dan

[lurker]

The top-down approach used to date aids the wealthy bankers, while the homeowners are denied aid".
cool word picture "To expect a top-down solution that actually relieves the housing inventory logjam is insane. That is like feeding a teenager with meals placed inside the human rectum, expecting nutrients to find their way to the rest of the body!"

It is frightening that someone could be this stupid and still remember to breathe.

The rectum is on the bottom, and the image illustrates the problem in precisely the opposite direction. The image shows the foolishness of the bottom up solution.

Adding capital at the bottom of the chain ensures that it will go to many 'final' use propositions--and stay there. There will be no investment in the future, only a round of immediate usage that will continue until the money runs out. What do we do when that happens? Add more capital?

Putting money in at the top, as with food, insures that the money will pass through all levels of society on it's way to end use propositions--and along that path lie many money generation points--places where it can be used to make more money and add value, much as a tiny big mac can add pounds. Fortunately, with money, we are not limited to a single....spigot at the bottom, and the money generation can go to widespread uses--some of which may act as seeds for further money generation.

The trickle down theory only appears ludicrous to those with a zero-sum mindset. There are not a limited number of slices of the pie--because we can make more pies

[Elderberry]

It is frightening that someone could be this stupid and still remember to breathe.

The rectum is on the bottom, and the image illustrates the problem in precisely the opposite direction. The image shows the foolishness of the bottom up solution.

Adding capital at the bottom of the chain ensures that it will go to many 'final' use propositions--and stay there. There will be no investment in the future, only a round of immediate usage that will continue until the money runs out. What do we do when that happens? Add more capital?

Putting money in at the top, as with food, insures that the money will pass through all levels of society on it's way to end use propositions--and along that path lie many money generation points--places where it can be used to make more money and add value, much as a tiny big mac can add pounds. Fortunately, with money, we are not limited to a single....spigot at the bottom, and the money generation can go to widespread uses--some of which may act as seeds for further money generation.

The trickle down theory only appears ludicrous to those with a zero-sum mindset. There are not a limited number of slices of the pie--because we can make more pies

This sounds great in theory. The problem is that the money isn't always allowed to trickle down far enough to help those that need it.

JK

[ygmir]

I'd agree with Lurker, mostly, though......I think it works better, perhaps not perfectly, that way........

IMHO....

[lurker]

Allowed?

Please offer an example of money at the top that does not, in any way help generate money at other levels.

[Elderberry]

I'd agree with Lurker, mostly, though......I think it works better, perhaps not perfectly, that way........

IMHO....

I used to feel that way too. Not so much any more. Look at all the money that was generated 'at the top' in our current financial scandal. Now it is everyone at the bottom that is suffering. Why didn't any of this money trickle down?

The trickle down theory only works when money is invested in tangibles such as factories, research and development, etc. When money is only invested in making money, the whole trickle down theory goes to hell.

JK