The Long Cold Winter

Boijoy · Post by **Boijoy** » Thu Sep 25, 2008 12:38 pm

I think were ALL going to be taking this in the shorts for a very long time. Why the hell would anyone want the be the next president??

Last thing Dubya is going to do before he leaves the White House is staring running with a torch and catch as much shit on fire as possible.

I mean.. whats left to destroy?? ::: I need a drink now :::

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Thu Sep 25, 2008 5:36 pm

Ugly Dougly wrote:They will declare an emergency and suspend the constitution before that happens, don't worry.

Don't worry. OK, now I feel completely reassured

If we default, our creditors won't send us oil. The oil that we do have will go to either the farmers or the military. Why does that make me nervous?
Iran just bought 1 million tons of wheat from us. They couldn't find it anywhere else. That makes me nervous too.
There have been plenty of collapses and defaults before. One just has to work it off for years or sell everything. Argentina and Indonesia had to work it off. Russia dumped oil on the market to buy their way to solvency. If the US defaults, will we work it off with hard labor or will we trash the environment selling all the resources that we can? GOV can very easily export all of the food to the highest bidder. It's been done before.
The other thing that makes me nervous is Japan. Their property bubble burst 18 years ago. They're still in a slump. They save 25% of their income and they work hard. Their prime interest rate has been .25% for years. They still can't get going. Wages are slowly falling. People are stealing bronze headstones and metal slides out of the parks.

If the world gradually reverts to a global mean wage, the US won't be able to attract investment capital unless we have competitive wages. Since the East won't institute birth control, it all gets down to supply and demand. We will have to compete with both Bangladeshi workers and automation.
The US has wealth but will gradually spend it down if we don't make some real changes in the manufacturing sector. Capital has no brain. If it grinds wages down to nothing, nobody can afford it's products.
As long as greed is the focal point, there are going to be a lot of hungry people.

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Fri Sep 26, 2008 11:27 am

It is too late to buy a rural survivalist compound?

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Fri Sep 26, 2008 11:50 am

Ugly Dougly wrote:It is too late to buy a rural survivalist compound?

I have one......come on over and see me........make sure you know the secret handshake and password, though...........

nothings impossible with enough money........perhaps some bailout funding?............
you form the "Bank of UD", I'll take out a huge loan that I can't afford and default, and, we'll split the bailout money.......

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:08 pm

Dougly, if you want a compound, you'll have to build it, unless you have about 400K. The most important things to remember is to be away from any city,,, have a long growing season,,, have access to water that can't be legislated away. You don't want an area that requires lots of energy go heat or cool. You MUST not be near our southern border. Mexico is soon to lose 50% of it's income.
It's not public but I hear in e-mails that Mexico is already going downhill fast.
I went around the country and decided on western Oregon. I already have a place in central Oregon but, the growing season is too short. I'm looking in the Coquille river valley. Specifically in Myrtle Point. It never snows ,, never gets too hot or cold.... Surrounded by endless hills full of deer and elk. Not far from the ocean, etc, etc
Look for yourself; http://www.realestateoregon.com/

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:45 pm

your growing season and climate ideas are great, Dan, my only issue with them, is, that's what everyone will want.....
I'm opting for a little more remote, easier to defend, higher elevation for less polluted water, and, plenty of water........
There's usually wild veggies, and, stuff that will grow up there, and, large game animals.....fish, etc.

Anywhere you choose will have it's "issues", I'm just trying to choose the issues I want......

A harsher climate will weed out a lot of the city folk, and, people who can't provide for themselves anyway...........

I'm thinking crowds, in that situation, may not be a good thing, at least for me.......

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Fri Sep 26, 2008 7:19 pm

A little bit of thread drift doesn't hurt anything. But, we could go on forever about survival. The US had to decide between saving the banks or saving the dollar. Since the whole rationale behind all this contrived mess was to trash the dollar to make it easier to pay our foreign debt, GOV has elected to trash the dollar. Big surprise. EVERYONE holding dollars will see the value evaporate day by day.
If you think that the credit markets are frozen now, just wait until we have 20% inflation. No one will loan for under 26%. It will kill the economy if producers can't figure out their costs. Helicopter Ben is getting ready to lower interest to help the economy. That should finish off the last of foreign investment.
The US has liquidity up the wazoo. It just doesn't have any capital. I expect that we'll just get poorer and poorer.

Apollonaris Zeus · Post by **Apollonaris Zeus** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 9:35 am

We may be well on the way to a little Ice Age:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/03/scien ... 03sun.html

"Some wonder if this could be the start of an extended period of solar indolence that would more than offset the warming effect of human-made carbon dioxide emissions. From the middle of the 17th century to the early 18th, a period known as the Maunder Minimum, sunspots were extremely rare, and the reduced activity coincided with lower temperatures in what is known as the Little Ice Age."

Polar Bears UNITE!

AIIZ

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:33 pm

Zeus, there are some other links on the thread "Global Cooling"
Well boys and girls, it looks to be "Show Time"
"Rep. Brad Sherman says Congress threatened with Martial Law in the Unitied States if Bailout bill is not passed"
Right now, the banks are hoarding cash. THAT is crashing the system [among other things] The banks say that WE must hand over several hundred billion. Well, they're just going to hoard that too. The system is going to crash anyway, but, the banks will be several hundred billion richer. If martial law is coming, it will be a symptom, not a cause. The symptoms will likely be horrific

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 9:24 am

Reportedly, California will run out of cash Oct 28. The Govenator is being blamed for this because he didn't sign the budget. There aren't any banks that will loan to Ca, but, that is besides the point.

GOV wants $7B from the FED GOV.
Ca is the 11th largest economy in the world,,,,, and can't borrow a dime???
Logically, it's not in the bank's best interest to crash Cal. The logical conclusion is that the banks don't believe that CA can repay any loans.
The American economy is in , more or less, the same boat. No one will loan to business or industry. Not a good sign. There is plenty of money floating around but, the interest rates are higher than giraffe pussy.
The banking industry on the other hand is borrowing almost 1/2 trillion dollars a day. They can't borrow a dime from each other, except for 24 hours. They get it from the FED. There are claims that this is allowed on purpose so that the European banks will own the US.

Who Owns the Federal Reserve?
Here's a list you don't see very often...

There are those who say, "When this so-called 'bail out is over' these families will effectively own our country":

Here's a list of the actual owners of the Federal Reserve:

1. Rothschilds of London and Berlin (main family)

2. Lazard Brothers of Paris

3. Israel Moses Seaf of Italy

4. Kuhn, Loeb & Co. of Germany and New York

5. Warburg & Company of Hamburg, Germany

6. Lehman Brothers of New York

7. Goldman, Sachs of New York

8. Rockefeller Brothers of New York

We already know that # 6 and 7 on this list have serious problems. Is this self-immolation or a shrewd takeover? The 1/2 T a day is growing rapidly.
I have no idea how long these banks can afford to "loan" money to US banks. I don't even know what "loan" means in this context. Is it just an incestuous shuffle of counter-party exposure,,,,, maybe a shipload of zeros,,, a trainload of paper bonds.
US GOV is very close to being in the same boat as Calif.
Oct 6, GOV has to sell the bonds to refi the debt from Mac and Mae. The Chinese aren't likely to bail themselves out by buying back their impaired paper. If the credit markets are locked up tighter than a drum, who's going to finance any bond debt?
Right now, capital is fleeing the entire financial structure. Much is fleeing to treasury bonds. Is treasury going to buy back the impaired bonds of Mac and Mae to rescue the Chinese?
If the Calif GOV is perceived to be so impaired that it won't be solvent in the future, it's never going to get credit.
The $700B bailout is supposed to be used to buy worthless assets from the banks. If the American economy is perceived to be so impaired that it doesn't have any possibility of making a profit, it's not going to receive credit under any circumstances. Chrysler comes to mind.

China shut down a lot of industry in preparation for the Olympics. Reportedly, it hasn't been restarted.. They see a slowdown. At what point will the Chinese decide that it is less painful to cut us loose rather than continue to finance our excesses?

The bottom line is that the US absorbed all the savings worldwide and had a good time. Foreign investors will not return until GOV is reduced by <70> percent and wages are in line with global wages. The laws of capitalism are immutable. The capital must be used efficiently or it leaves. The ROI in the East is double what it is in the West. Stability was a big plus for the US in attracting capital, but those days are fading away.

The US is no longer attractive to foreign investors because of our lying, cheating, thieving GOV, lying, cheating, thieving banking system, and lying, cheating, thieving business ethics. They're tired of financing our monstrously bloated bureaucracy.
If we don't cut back GOV, we can look forward to decades of poverty.

Rabbi Dali Rick · Post by **Rabbi Dali Rick** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 11:25 am

GOT PORK?.....

I'll take some Babayback ribs, and some smoked Ham Hocks, please....

anybody got any idea what all was in that Bill, besides the Bailout stuff that finally passed

the rebbi

Post by **Elderberry** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 11:34 am

Boijoy wrote:I think were ALL going to be taking this in the shorts for a very long time. Why the hell would anyone want the be the next president??

Last thing Dubya is going to do before he leaves the White House is staring running with a torch and catch as much shit on fire as possible. I mean.. whats left to destroy?? ::: I need a drink now :::

I haven't really been following all of this thread, but your post caught my eye. First, let me say that I HATE Dubya and all that he stands for and all that he has done to the detriment of our country. However, I am not yet so cynical as to believe that in his heart and mind, he believes he is acting in the best interest of the country. I also tend to believe that people that aspire to high office tend to do so for many different reasons, high on the list being power and legacy; and often legacy and how the world will remember them is an extremely strong motivator for those types of people.

Consequently, I don't think (at least I hope) that my theory is correct and that Dubya won't go around with a torch--I believe he knows how history will treat him and I can't imagine him doing anything else intentionally to make it worse.

JK

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 2:34 pm

can't sit still wrote:Dougly, if you want a compound, you'll have to build it, unless you have about 400K. The most important things to remember is to be away from any city,,, have a long growing season,,, have access to water that can't be legislated away. You don't want an area that requires lots of energy go heat or cool. You MUST not be near our southern border. Mexico is soon to lose 50% of it's income.
It's not public but I hear in e-mails that Mexico is already going downhill fast.
I went around the country and decided on western Oregon. I already have a place in central Oregon but, the growing season is too short. I'm looking in the Coquille river valley. Specifically in Myrtle Point. It never snows ,, never gets too hot or cold.... Surrounded by endless hills full of deer and elk. Not far from the ocean, etc, etc
Look for yourself; http://www.realestateoregon.com/

Coquille looks nice, but may be prone to flooding. Thinking Ruch and the Applegate area, close to Ashland et al.

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 2:58 pm

Rabbi, I read the very long list of pork in the bill. It is a catch-all. They can vote for all the pork they want. Who's going to buy the bonds? To the financiers, there is nothing but a sterile landscape. Nothing is worth buying. GOV is spending billions to prop up the stock market. It's not working. Some Payaso in GOV came up with the idea of attaching Warren Buffet's name to $10 billion instead of GOV spending it directly. They figured that an investment from Buffet would inspire confidence.
Ha! A couple days later Buffet said in an interview [metaphorically] that we're all toast.
If GE and AT&T can't borrow, who can?
When Lehman went down, the counter party loss kicked out the props from hundreds of others.
Our POS emperor can make all the proclamations that he wants. They won't come to fruition,,,, more likely perdition. He's forgotten the golden rule.

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 8:12 pm

Dougly, the election is just a sideshow to the economic collapse. The collapse is just a sideshow to the fury of mother nature that is coming our way after 2010. I'll save that for a later thread. I'm well aware of the possibility of floods in the Coquille river valley. It's so close to the sea that it won't take much elevation to be safe. I've worked out ALL the possibilities that I can think of.

We're obviously getting up a good head of steam as we barrel into the economic collapse. Everyone would like to know when it will bottom and turn around. We have to look at the fundamentals that got us here in the first place. Without understanding the fundamentals, we're just guessing.
The US is rich. Our criminal justice system is a joke as far as the rich are concerned. Crime DOES pay. GOV crime pays best. The fraud enforcement division of both the FBI and the SEC were gutted by over 95% a few years ago. Greenspan came along and worked his magic. People turned their money over to the bankers for safe keeping.
It was just too much temptation. It's always been known that the bankers have to be protected from themselves.

The current economic collapse is a symptom of the larger moral collapse. Credit is regarded as the lifeblood of the economy. The 3 major bond rating agencies are all in America. When Americans gave NINJA loans, it was easy to get them rated as AAA. We sold them to all our friends and creditors.
Now, our friends and creditors no longer trust us. Our economy is overloaded with dead weight. Our society is overloaded with the poisons brought on by democracy. No democracy has ever survived in the long run. We vote for ourself every social program possible. This might be sustainable considering that most of our "producers" are automatic machines that don't demand anything besides energy.

With the demands of a war economy to promote Pax Americana, coupled with the flight of capital and jobs brought on by the introduction of containerized shipping, it was just too much to sustain. We tried to outsource our manufacturing and still keep the proceeds. We tried to subsist on financial deals when we had no capital of our own. We tried to get by living off of other people's money. Our business and political leaders might go to church every Sunday but, they're morally bankrupt in their business dealings.

The music has stopped,,, the bankers have taken all the chairs. Our debt is not repayable. We're searching for direction. GOV saw this coming and couldn't get anyone to run for Pres other than the 2 unlikely candidates that we have to chose from.
Our moral compass is influenced by Philandering religious leaders, corrupt politicians and a general focus on self-gratification regardless of who it damages.
The political process is often indistinguishable from the actions of the mafia and other organized crime groups. All too many people worship hedonism and consider the family to be an anachronism.

There are all too many people who would like to believe that the bare minimum of morality in business is necessary. Too many people carry this attitude into business relationships. When these same actions are carried out by powerful people, the destruction to society is enormous. Michael Milken comes to mind.

Our major creditors are hard working and they are tired of underwriting our very fine lifestyle. They see our insolvency and know us for liars. Sooner or later, they're going to cut their losses. We'll have to make it on our own. Neither our social structure nor our national character are prepared to face this.

Our economy will shrink down to where it is commensurate with our earning power, capital, and our production capacity. The military/ industrial/banking complex will try to postpone and avoid the inevitable. In their scrambling to secure power, the little guy will suffer. It won't be smooth. Our lack of political and business morals has burned up our credit rating.
Dan

**burn** · Post by **burn** » Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:44 pm

That Geraldo Rivera is quite a guy.
I heard him comment about the 700B bail out.
He said that would be more than enough to give each of the 330M Americans $1M to do what we choose.
We would invest, pay our debts, repair our vehicles, blah blah blah, rah rah rah.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 7:24 am

**burn** wrote:That Geraldo Rivera is quite a guy.
I heard him comment about the 700B bail out.
He said that would be more than enough to give each of the 330M Americans $1M to do what we choose.
We would invest, pay our debts, repair our vehicles, blah blah blah, rah rah rah.

Seems Jerry Rivera (Geraldo) should borrow more fingers to count with.......

Box Burner · Post by **Box Burner** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 8:37 am

**burn** wrote:That Geraldo Rivera is quite a guy.
I heard him comment about the 700B bail out.
He said that would be more than enough to give each of the 330M Americans $1M to do what we choose.
We would invest, pay our debts, repair our vehicles, blah blah blah, rah rah rah.

The big problem with giving $1M to each US citizen is that GOV does not have the money to give us. GOV has to borrow it in order to give it to us and that means that we ( the taxpayers) will have to pay it back with interest.

A lot of households will pay off the mortgage and then one of the wage earners will quit working to take care of the kids, house, etc. That in turn will hurt the economy even harder because we need to produce goods and services to pay off the debt. So once it settles, inflation will start to spiral at an even faster rate.

The best fix is to let the collapse happen. Yeah I know that that is going to hurt a lot of people who are not responsible for the problem. However every time it is bailed out the fix is only temporary. And the next time it comes around is even a shorter time away and the collapse will be worse. If it had been allowed to happen 30 years ago the impact would have been relatively minimal compared to what will happen now.

It is really a math problem. And when solving such a problem you need to reduce everything to the lowest common denominator. In this case the lowest common denominator is the common worker who produces real goods and, to a lesser extent, services. If you do not believe that then try this experiment. Place a 100 dollar bill on your back porch and tell it to landscape your yard. How long did it take for that 100 dollar bill to get off it's ass and start digging, planting grass and moving rocks? Are you still waiting? the idea that it takes money to make money is a crock of shit. It takes workers to make money, and that is the lowest common denominator. Money is simply a medium of exchange wherein workers can make bartering easier. In other words the $100 dollar bill I have represents x amount of hours I have spent growing beets and i would like to trade it for the pig that you spent an equal amount of time raising. But you do not need beets. You need a new henhouse. However Joe down the street, who does not need a pig but wants some beets knows how to, and can build a henhouse will be able to take that $100 bill in exchange for the henhouse and then trade it to me for the beets. At that point the $100 dollar bill ceases to exist since it has come full circle back to me. yet bankers and stock broker would have us believe that money once created has value in and of itself and therefore continues to exist. We have been sold a bill of goods by those who produce nothing of any real value.

Yeah, I know this will piss some folks off. but the math doesn't lie. Maybe we will get lucky and the bankers all jump out of windows.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 9:04 am

I think I'm with you, BB.......
Of course, I'm one of those guys who turns rocks into products........

Post by **Elderberry** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 9:36 am

Box Burner wrote:
The best fix is to let the collapse happen. Yeah I know that that is going to hurt a lot of people who are not responsible for the problem. However every time it is bailed out the fix is only temporary. And the next time it comes around is even a shorter time away and the collapse will be worse. If it had been allowed to happen 30 years ago the impact would have been relatively minimal compared to what will happen now.

I'll be the first one to admit that I don't know much about 'high finance' but I've run several businesses over the years and also managed my personal finances; so based on my personal experience and my 'common sense' derived from those experiences, this approach seems to be the best fix to me too, unfortunately.

JK

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 3:14 pm

One of the hallmarks of this economic meltdown is the unexpected problems. Problems come out of the blue and nobody has a plan. The new problem is "letters of credit". They don't sound like a big deal but, they are. This from safe Haven;
http://www.safehaven.com/article-11537.htm
"Just as the business world is dependent upon commercial paper as its life blood, the world of global trade depends on letters of credit (LOC). Without LOCs, the world of trade quickly freezes up."
"I spoke to another friend of mine this afternoon, whose father has been in the shipping business forever. Pristine credit rating, rock solid balance sheet. He says if he takes his BNP Paribas letter of credit to Citi today for short term funding for his vessels, they won't give it to him. That means he can't ship goods, which means that within the next 2 weeks, physical shortages of commodities begin to show up. THE CENTRAL BANKS CAN'T LET THAT HAPPEN OR WE HAVE NO ECONOMY, LET ALONE A CREDIT SYSTEM.""

"'There are all kinds of stuff stacked up on docks right now that can't be shipped because people can't get letters of credit,'
""Access to credit is key to the survival of maritime trade and insiders now say the supply is being severely restricted. More than 90% of the world's trade by volume goes by ship."
"The G-7 group of nations is holding an emergency meeting this weekend. As I write this, reports are coming in that there are serious disagreements as to what to do. They cannot even agree on a press release."
"Sadly, he is right. It has come to that. We are close to the point of no return. Now, we are not talking about bailing out financial institutions. We are literally talking about saving the world economic system"
What this boils down to is; we need great leadership to RAPIDLY take over major portions of the banking industry. Problem is, GOV has already been petrified with fear over derivatives
. http://www.rense.com/general83/quad.htm
LOCs are not going to make it onto the radar until it is too late. I hate to sound pesimistic, but, the majority of GOV is incompetent. There is also the itty bitty little problem that GOV steadily gets farther and farther behind.
1/3 of the food produced in the US is exported. The grain dealers are particularly hard hit by the lack of LOCs. The Four Horsemen are rising.
Y'all have about 2-3 weeks.

Toolmaker · Post by **Toolmaker** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 5:07 pm

ygmir wrote:
**burn** wrote:That Geraldo Rivera is quite a guy.
I heard him comment about the 700B bail out.
He said that would be more than enough to give each of the 330M Americans $1M to do what we choose.
We would invest, pay our debts, repair our vehicles, blah blah blah, rah rah rah.
Seems Jerry Rivera (Geraldo) should borrow more fingers to count with.......

Or get a working calculator and fire his writer.

**burn** · Post by **burn** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 9:12 pm

I half remember a great scenario describing an economy based on production vs not.

A man mortgages a farm. He does not know how to farm, he just always dreamed of owning a little ol place out in little ol nowhere. Since he does not know how to farm, his crops die, his tractor rusts, his cows go unmilked. Now the mortgage is still being paid. Eventually, because he produces nothing (and now his savings has been depleted), he begins to sell his cows, equipment, and portions of his land. What are his resources if he produces nothing?

America needs to keep producing.

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 6:52 am

Burn, the second biggest export from the US is scrap metal. We're picking the bones.

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 7:52 pm

The reason that I started this thread is because of the problems with fundamentals.
California is about the 6th largest economy in the world. It's about the same size as China.
China has about 1 billion people. California has about 37 million. Californians had about $1 trillion in income in 2006.
China has about $ 1.4 trillion in reserves. California is carrying $ 51 billion in bonds. California has about $20 billion in budget shortfall. California can't borrow a nickel.
As automation and outsourcing eliminated jobs, CA GOV took up the slack. The banks won't lend to us because we have an impaired ability for repaying.
If California is to be competitive in the global market, and attract capital, what do we change? We can't raise productivity. We already have just about the highest GDP per person. If we can't borrow and can't raise productivity,,,,,,,, we have to cut expenses.
We could raise taxes but, one of the drawbacks to a democracy is that we toss out anyone who brings us pain.
It looks like CA GOV is not going to incur the wrath of voters by raising taxes in preference to going into default. It's possible that we can shake loose some bailout money and postpone the pain for a few months. If not, we'll face the music before year's end.
Cold, hard capitalism doesn't put any value on social programs or make-work GOV jobs. The axe will fall sooner or later.

LeChatNoir · Post by **LeChatNoir** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:36 pm

can't sit still wrote:Burn, the second biggest export from the US is scrap metal. We're picking the bones.

The vast majority of that is going to China, too. A few years ago they came in and offered well above the going rate for scrap. This peaked the market and caused the domestic steel production to go up in cost as well since part of the supply of raw materials was diverted. It hasnâ€™t come back down. In just a couple of years new steel costs have tripled, and in the case of tube steel and structural shapes, more like quadrupled+.

I donâ€™t think there any US foundries producing tubing anymore. Most of what Iâ€™ve seen is from Korea and South Africa. To my knowledge there is only one US foundry producing bronze now. Bronze and copper are through the roof.

When I was in Tool&Die in the 90's, even then I could see that we were loosing our manufacturing at an alarming rate. How's that look these days Toolmaker? It seems to still be waning in Kentucky. Fabrication seems to be holding steady at the local shops, oddly enough.

Toolmaker · Post by **Toolmaker** » Wed Oct 15, 2008 5:51 am

LeChatNoir wrote:
can't sit still wrote:Burn, the second biggest export from the US is scrap metal. We're picking the bones.
The vast majority of that is going to China, too. A few years ago they came in and offered well above the going rate for scrap. This peaked the market and caused the domestic steel production to go up in cost as well since part of the supply of raw materials was diverted. It hasnâ€™t come back down. In just a couple of years new steel costs have tripled, and in the case of tube steel and structural shapes, more like quadrupled+.

I donâ€™t think there any US foundries producing tubing anymore. Most of what Iâ€™ve seen is from Korea and South Africa. To my knowledge there is only one US foundry producing bronze now. Bronze and copper are through the roof.

When I was in Tool&Die in the 90's, even then I could see that we were loosing our manufacturing at an alarming rate. How's that look these days Toolmaker? It seems to still be waning in Kentucky. Fabrication seems to be holding steady at the local shops, oddly enough.

I can attest to what you have mentioned. In the late 90s shops really started closing left and right. More shops close than open yet fabrication and specialty shops seem to be holding on. Though I have noticed and have heard firsthand that the chopper bike craze is tapering off and some places just aren't selling bikes like they used to. Sportsters and Scooters on the other hand are moving like hotcakes since they are cheaper to drive than cars. Up north its even worse.. I think the only thing keeping some FL shops open is cheap immigrant labor. Companies that wanted to stay US just moved south where the labor and overhead is cheaper. Now that I'm in a chair I'm only really good for CNC programming, I think my days running machines are over. All my hustles to make bread outside of my chosen trade are dwindling. I can't build a computer and stay competitive with Dell et al. The last shop I worked in was an intl. outfit that was moving their stuff overseas, the ONLY reason I had work was the high degree of accuracy and complexity of the parts I was making. I was in charge of ppl that didn't speak english and couldn't read prints. The parets were shipped either way, good or bad. hole too big.. just use a ball bearing to hammer that bitch closed at the top. I've become quite disgusted with American manufacturing as of late. Pretty soon what used to be 30 percent of our economy is going to be down to 5 percent. The rich in their infinite quest to become more rich have fucked the entire country.

**burn** · Post by **burn** » Wed Oct 15, 2008 6:14 am

My husband's father is a decorative iron worker in Hawaii, and manages to price it enough to cover his costs of having his raw material shipped into Hawaii.

I just heard on the radio that locally here in Reno the no longer being used homebuilders and contractors' equipment is being sold internationally via ebay.

Simon of the Playa · Post by **Simon of the Playa** » Wed Oct 15, 2008 6:29 am

LETS BLAME THE JEWS!

i mean it always seemed to work in the past....

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Wed Oct 15, 2008 6:43 am

Simon of the Playa wrote:LETS BLAME THE JEWS!

i mean it always seemed to work in the past....

hey,
are you cross posting from the Hitler thread?..........

The Long Cold Winter

Political Bar-B-Que Coming....