My God can kick Your God's ass.

Simon of the Playa · Post by **Simon of the Playa** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 7:15 am

this actually happened in Iowa, on the campaign trail, yesterday.

Before McCain spoke, a Christian pastor offered a prayer that seemed to ask for divine intervention on his behalf. "There are millions of people around this world praying to their God -- whether it's Hindu, Buddha, Allah -- that [McCain's] opponent wins for a variety of reasons," Pastor Arnold Conrad said. "And, Lord, I pray that you would guard your own reputation, because they're going to think that their god is bigger than you, if that happens."

holy fucking shit........pun intended.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 7:28 am

oh, those nutty pastors..........

somekind · Post by **somekind** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 9:00 am

Yeah, buddhists don't even worship a god.

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 9:14 am

Simon, ever visit TOTSE?

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 9:16 am

somekind wrote:Yeah, buddhists don't even worship a god.

and, what about us "Pagan, poly-theists".....?......

Post by **Elderberry** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 9:53 am

And we need how many more reasons to ban all religion/belief in god and any other miyhology from this country? When will we ever move into the 21st century and have the courage to look reality in the face?

There are four very short and very interesting videos at the link below.

http://thesciencenetwork.org/BeyondBelief/

JK

betrdanevr · Post by **betrdanevr** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 1:04 pm

Ban religious belief or any belief? Excuse me? Wanna go back to banning books? Man has had religious beliefs of some sort since the days of the caveman. I think it's a basic human need -- or perhaps I should modify that to say "at least for many."

Now, that doesn't say that I believe in organized religion. I think it's generally a farce that's written by "man." It's the my-god-can-kick-your-god's ass syndrome.

I DO, however, believe -- when I give it the chance -- that there IS somebody or some THING -- bigger than me or us. There's better DAMNED well be, to my way of thinking. I certainly couldn't have personally come up with the natural order of things, and left to my own accord, I will surely fuck things up.

Just my opinion and my experience, but when I get my damned ego out of the way and appeal to Him/Her -- divine intelligence? - - for guidance for the next right thing to do, things work out better.

Just my $.01.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 1:44 pm

jkisha wrote:And we need how many more reasons to ban all religion/belief in god and any other miyhology from this country? When will we ever move into the 21st century and have the courage to look reality in the face?

There are four very short and very interesting videos at the link below.

http://thesciencenetwork.org/BeyondBelief/

JK

Do you really want a ban?........

I think the separation of church and state idea is correct, and, should be precisely followed.......
anyone can believe anything they want.
But,
no government (read all the power and money and enforcement) can favor or decree belief in one religion......

but,
to take that away?.........Stalin comes to mind...........Mao........
Nope, not for me......
you are free to think and believe what you want, but, not to force it on me......

IMHO.......

Post by **Elderberry** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 2:19 pm

Hey, I know it could never be banned. People will continue to believe in fairy tailes probably forever. But I want STRICT seperation of church and state. No religious teaching (read creationsim) in schools; no banning of any of the fruits of scientific research (read stem cells, cloning, etc.), no banning of gay marriage, i.e. no "in god we trust" on money, no prayers to start any public or political events...shall I go on?

JK

littleflower · Post by **littleflower** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 4:51 pm

jkisha wrote:Hey, I know it could never be banned. People will continue to believe in fairy tailes probably forever. But I want STRICT seperation of church and state. No religious teaching (read creationsim) in schools; no banning of any of the fruits of scientific research (read stem cells, cloning, etc.), no banning of gay marriage, i.e. no "in god we trust" on money, no prayers to start any public or political events...shall I go on?

JK

if you feel like going on, please do! but don't get upset if you fail to convince. sometimes you sound like you think your opinion is worth more than those of anyone who disagrees with you ... just an observation ...

Post by **Elderberry** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 5:07 pm

littleflower wrote:
jkisha wrote:Hey, I know it could never be banned. People will continue to believe in fairy tailes probably forever. But I want STRICT seperation of church and state. No religious teaching (read creationsim) in schools; no banning of any of the fruits of scientific research (read stem cells, cloning, etc.), no banning of gay marriage, i.e. no "in god we trust" on money, no prayers to start any public or political events...shall I go on?

JK
if you feel like going on, please do! but don't get upset if you fail to convince. sometimes you sound like you think your opinion is worth more than those of anyone who disagrees with you ... just an observation ...

Well, quite frankly, when it comes to religion, I feel my opinion IS better than anyone else's who happens to believe in and worship fairytales, fables and myth. This is not rational thinking; so how could I possibly put any creedence in their opinions? My thinking on this topic is quite similar to Richard Dawkins as he expresses it in his book "The God Delusion". He believes that teaching young children to believe in God is the absolute worst form of child abuse. You might enjoy his book

JK

littleflower · Post by **littleflower** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 6:20 pm

jkisha wrote:
Well, quite frankly, when it comes to religion, I feel my opinion IS better than anyone else's who happens to believe in and worship fairytales, fables and myth. This is not rational thinking; so how could I possibly put any creedence in their opinions? My thinking on this topic is quite similar to Richard Dawkins as he expresses it in his book "The God Delusion". He believes that teaching young children to believe in God is the absolute worst form of child abuse. You might enjoy his book

JK

you can think what you like ... but your opinion is NOT better than mine ... ! you have different interests and motivations, and read different stuff... but ... there is a TON of stuff neither of us has read, isn't there.

honestly ... humans are the top of the food chain ... but we are NOTHING next to the vastness of the universe. and humans are terribly susceptible to greed and corruption ... don't you think it maybe makes sense to hope for a higher power than obama and the democrats?

and where there is mystery, stories occur .... an essential element in creativity ... they are as old as human life....

you'd shut them up, eh? tell 'em they're inferior to you? take away their voices because they don't know what's best for themselves? the all knowing jkisha and his perfect logic? yeah, yeah

Post by **Eric** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 6:45 pm

jkisha wrote:Well, quite frankly, when it comes to religion, I feel my opinion IS better than anyone else's who happens to believe in and worship fairytales, fables and myth.

Spoken like a true preacher of intolerance. How is your statement any different than a Priest/ Rabbi/ Imam that says their way is the only way, and that no other ways of life are acceptable?

And don't try pulling the "I don't believe in fairytales" b.s.- as stated earlier Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot etc were all atheists and made atheism mandatory. Didn't work. That whole "free will" thing people have. I don't think their ideas were "better" just because they didn't believe in religion. In fact, they were as blinded as the worst religious fundamentalist.

As for Dawkins- I have read him. He's got some good ideas, but I find him almost completely unreadable. He comes off as almost desperate to prove how right he is, and rather shrill and annoying.

Post by **Elderberry** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 8:15 pm

Eric wrote: Spoken like a true preacher of intolerance. How is your statement any different than a Priest/ Rabbi/ Imam that says their way is the only way, and that no other ways of life are acceptable?

Because I am not asking anyone to believe in anything--except maybe science. Priests, Rabbies and Imans would try to convince you it is there way or you'll be burned in hell. Now tha's my idea of intolerance.

But you or littleflower or anyone else for that matter can believe what you will--as long as it doesn't effect our schools, our government, or anything else in that list of mine. Oh, and I would also like to see religious organizations lose thier tax exempt status as well. No need for the government to encourage this irrational behavior either. What makes any of the big three any less of a cult? That more people believe those stories?

JK

littleflower · Post by **littleflower** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 8:47 pm

jkisha wrote:
Eric wrote: Spoken like a true preacher of intolerance. How is your statement any different than a Priest/ Rabbi/ Imam that says their way is the only way, and that no other ways of life are acceptable?

Because I am not asking anyone to believe in anything--except maybe science. Priests, Rabbies and Imans would try to convince you it is there way or you'll be burned in hell. Now tha's my idea of intolerance.

But you or littleflower or anyone else for that matter can believe what you will--as long as it doesn't effect our schools, our government, or anything else in that list of mine. Oh, and I would also like to see religious organizations lose thier tax exempt status as well. No need for the government to encourage this irrational behavior either. What makes any of the big three any less of a cult? That more people believe those stories?

JK

show us irrefutable proof that there is no god, and you will get what you want, jk!

oh ... and please, can you quit with the irrational crap? religion is part of life ... history, philosophy, literature, music, and art, among other subjects, have religion all over them ... what you are asking is to close the mind. do what you want with yours ... i'll keep my own open, thank you.

Post by **Elderberry** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:19 pm

littleflower wrote: show us irrefutable proof that there is no god, and you will get what you want, jk!

oh ... and please, can you quit with the irrational crap? religion is part of life ... history, philosophy, literature, music, and art, among other subjects, have religion all over them ... what you are asking is to close the mind. do what you want with yours ... i'll keep my own open, thank you.

On this topic my mind is closed tight as a steel drum. I don't find it necessary to "prove" anything to you; and because you believe on "faith" proof would be impossible anyway.

JK

littleflower · Post by **littleflower** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:30 pm

i agree, a closed mind is indeed the only way to "know" as much as you claim to know ...

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:43 pm

*fishy takes a quick peek into the thread, but refuses to step in the mire.*

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 11:40 pm

jkisha wrote:Hey, I know it could never be banned. People will continue to believe in fairy tailes probably forever. But I want STRICT seperation of church and state. No religious teaching (read creationsim) in schools; no banning of any of the fruits of scientific research (read stem cells, cloning, etc.), no banning of gay marriage, i.e. no "in god we trust" on money, no prayers to start any public or political events...shall I go on?

JK

Well, Jk, I again find myself in partial agreement with you........
I totally accept your rejection of any spiritual belief. I accept that you think I'm nuts, for my beliefs.
But, I reject your comments about non-existence.......

I don't see a problem with teaching ALL views of creation.

I do, however, reject banning any........allow any and all to be taught.......(although, I do see pitfalls of this, in certain communities especially)

Information is not an enemy........differing points of view are not evil.........

Belief is just that, belief........

I believe the only provable thing, is "faith" (I don't point this at any particular belief system), in that, faith needs no proof......
it exists merely because the faithful say it does......

and, believing in science is faith in itself.......as more in physics, chemistry, whatever, is discovered it's realized more is unknown........
taken to the smallest, levels, nothing can be proven to exist or even be different.....matter and energy become interchangeable. Time doesn't exist, on and on..........

As open minded and such as you seem to be, left leaning, tolerant, etc., it seems not to fit you would so put someone who believes differently than you down, with respect to spirituality.......

I see you do it a lot with politics......grin.....but then again, that's a lot of fun........grin again......

Just some random thoughts........

Digital-Dragonfly · Post by **Digital-Dragonfly** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 6:05 am

â€œAbsence of proof is not proof of absence.â€

dr.placebo · Post by **dr.placebo** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:29 am

I don't see a problem with teaching ALL views of creation.

I also think that banning teaching, beliefs, or speech is wrong. I have two practical objections to teaching all beliefs, though:

1. Insufficient time. There are too many views of creation, and we have little enough time to teach as it is. Teaching comparative religion as an elective course is not a problem, though.

2. Implication of equal validity. Teaching religious systems along with empirical systems has some tendency to give them equal standing. They do NOT have equal predictive value.

Now some might claim that empiricism is just another belief system. If I walk up behind a creationist and smack him in the back of the head I expect that he will be upset with me for quite valid empirical reasons. He is unlikely to attribute his experience to a deity.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 8:41 am

Yeah, Dr.P......I agree.
It's a dilemma for me, in that, the idea of allowing all is great, but, impractical, as you say.
But, how to draw arbitrary limit lines?.......

dang humans and their divergent P'sOV........

littleflower · Post by **littleflower** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 8:53 am

dr.placebo wrote:Implication of equal validity. Teaching religious systems along with empirical systems has some tendency to give them equal standing. They do NOT have equal predictive value.

Now some might claim that empiricism is just another belief system. If I walk up behind a creationist and smack him in the back of the head I expect that he will be upset with me for quite valid empirical reasons. He is unlikely to attribute his experience to a deity.

i may be a little confused here, but are we talking about religion primarily in the context of science, or religion as it appears in multiple subjects? i don't see how you could teach a number of subjects without referring to religion, as it is inextricable from humanity. but as for science ... i agree, religion should not be taught equally, i tend to see it more as philosophy anyhow. but i do think teachers should make it clear that a great many scientific ideas are theories, rather than hard fact.

i love that last line, dr.!

Post by **Elderberry** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 8:59 am

ygmir wrote: I accept that you think I'm nuts, for my beliefs.

I don't think that you are nuts for your beliefs, they are your beliefs. I would only think you nuts if you tried to convince me of your beliefs or if you tried to teach them in our schools or inject them into our law-making process.

Whatever works for you is fine by me.

ygmir wrote:
But, I reject your comments about non-existence.......

I don't see a problem with teaching ALL views of creation.

I do, however, reject banning any........allow any and all to be taught.......(although, I do see pitfalls of this, in certain communities especially)

Information is not an enemy........differing points of view are not evil.........

Belief is just that, belief........

I don't care if creation is taught or even if religion is taught in our schools, as long as they are taught within the correct syllabus--in a philosophy class, in a class on myth and fable, in a class called 'religion, fact or fable' or 'comparative religions of the world' but not proselytizing any one specific belief and NOT IN A SCIENCE CLASS.

ygmir wrote:
I believe the only provable thing, is "faith" (I don't point this at any particular belief system), in that, faith needs no proof......
it exists merely because the faithful say it does......

no argument from me there.

ygmir wrote:
and, believing in science is faith in itself.......as more in physics, chemistry, whatever, is discovered it's realized more is unknown........
taken to the smallest, levels, nothing can be proven to exist or even be different.....matter and energy become interchangeable. Time doesn't exist, on and on..........

As open minded and such as you seem to be, left leaning, tolerant, etc., it seems not to fit you would so put someone who believes differently than you down, with respect to spirituality.......

believe it or not, my partner is religious/spiritual. We never discuss this topic at all--ever!

Fortunately, he also knows the line between where religion stops and science begins.

ygmir wrote:
I see you do it a lot with politics......grin.....but then again, that's a lot of fun........grin again......

Just some random thoughts........

I'm old, crotchety and opinionated--can you think of a worse combination?

I'm also a 'born again' atheist--assuming that my understanding of 'born again' is correct, but that's a topic for another time.

"We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further."
JK

Post by **Elderberry** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:12 am

I have examined all the known superstitions of the Word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the world ...

The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind ... to filch wealth and power to themselves. [They], in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ.
Thomas Jefferson

The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes; fools and hypocrites. To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical.
Thomas Jefferson

Accustom a people to believe that priests and clergy can forgive sins ... and you will have sins in abundance. I would not dare to dishonor my Creator's name by [attaching] it to this filthy book [the Bible].
Thomas Paine

For here we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor to tolerate error so long as reason is free to combat it.
Thomas Jefferson

It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God.
Thomas Jefferson

Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson

Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon than the Word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind.
Thomas Paine

I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.
Thomas Paine

My country is the world, and my religion is to do good.
Thomas Paine

Let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religions.
George Washington

Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be deprecated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society.
George Washington, letter to Edward Newenham, October 20, 1792; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 726]

There is nothing which can better deserve our patronage than the promotion of science and literature. Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness.
George Washington, address to Congress, 8 January, 1790

Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause.
George Washington, letter to Sir Edward Newenham, June 22, 1792

...the path of true piety is so plain as to require but little political direction.
George Washington, 1789, responding to clergy complaints that the Constitution lacked mention of Jesus Christ, from The Godless Constitution: The Case Against Religious Correctness, Isacc Kramnick and R. Laurence Moore W.W. Norton and Company 101-102

If they are good workmen, they may be from Asia, Africa or Europe; they may be Mahometans, Jews, Christians of any sect, or they may be Atheists....
George Washington, to Tench Tighman, March 24, 1784, when asked what type of workman to get for Mount Vernon, from The Washington papers edited by Saul Padover

To give opinions unsupported by reasons might appear dogmatical.
George Washington, to Alexander Spotswood, November 22, 1798, from The Washington papers edited by Saul Padover

...I beg you be persuaded that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution.
George Washington, to United Baptists Churches of Virginia, May, 1789 from The Washington papers edited by Saul Padover

As the contempt of the religion of a country by ridiculing any of its ceremonies, or affronting its ministers or votaries, has ever been deeply resented, you are to be particularly careful to restrain every officer from such imprudence and folly, and to punish every instance of it. On the other hand, as far as lies in your power, you are to protect and support the free exercise of religion of the country, and the undisturbed enjoyment of the rights of conscience in religious matters, with your utmost influence and authority.
George Washington, to Benedict Arnold, September 14, 1775 from The Washington papers edited by Saul Padover

Post by **Elderberry** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:25 am

dr.placebo wrote: I also think that banning teaching, beliefs, or speech is wrong. I have two practical objections to teaching all beliefs, though:

1. Insufficient time. There are too many views of creation, and we have little enough time to teach as it is. Teaching comparative religion as an elective course is not a problem, though.

2. Implication of equal validity. Teaching religious systems along with empirical systems has some tendency to give them equal standing. They do NOT have equal predictive value.

Now some might claim that empiricism is just another belief system. If I walk up behind a creationist and smack him in the back of the head I expect that he will be upset with me for quite valid empirical reasons. He is unlikely to attribute his experience to a deity.

I wish I would have just said this to begin with!!!! I love the clarity of your writing.

JK

Post by **Elderberry** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:46 am

littleflower wrote: ...but as for science ... i agree, religion should not be taught equally, i tend to see it more as philosophy anyhow.

then we are in 100% agreement. I wish I would have expressed myself better to begin with.

littleflower wrote: but i do think teachers should make it clear that a great many scientific ideas are theories, rather than hard fact.

You may want to revisit your above statement after understanding how a 'theory' is defined in science:

The word theory has many distinct meanings in different fields of knowledge, depending on their methodologies and the context of discussion.

In science a theory is a testable model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise verified through empirical observation. For the scientist, "theory" is not in any way an antonym of "fact". For example, it is a fact that an apple dropped on earth has been observed to fall towards the center of the planet, and the theories commonly used to describe and explain this behavior are Newton's theory of universal gravitation (see also gravitation), and the general theory of relativity.

In common usage, the word theory is often used to signify a conjecture, an opinion, a speculation, or a hypothesis. In this usage, a theory is not necessarily based on facts; in other words, it is not required to be consistent with true descriptions of reality. True descriptions of reality are more reflectively understood as statements which would be true independently of what people think about them.

According to the United States National Academy of Sciences,

Some scientific explanations are so well established that no new evidence is likely to alter them. The explanation becomes a scientific theory. In everyday language a theory means a hunch or speculation. Not so in science. In science, the word theory refers to a comprehensive explanation of an important feature of nature that is supported by many facts gathered over time. Theories also allow scientists to make predictions about as yet unobserved phenomena.
JK

littleflower · Post by **littleflower** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:53 am

jkisha wrote: Theories also allow scientists to make predictions about as yet unobserved phenomena.[/i]
JK

i submit that there are far more "unobserved" phenomena than otherwise.

thirt33n · Post by **thirt33n** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 10:10 am

OH MY NON-GOD!!

Apollonaris Zeus · Post by **Apollonaris Zeus** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 10:44 am

The God of the Jews is Anti-vegan!

just ask Cain!

My God can kick Your God's ass.

My God can kick Your God's ass.

How our founding fathers felt on the topic of religion