Encouraging acoustic music and diversity in BRC

[Badger]

many of them won't so that means either a ranger wandering around taking readings or the neighbors complaining.

The latter would probably initiate the former. Can't imagine that we're gonna have sound nazis patrolling around with decibel meters just to stick it to a camp.

In fact, i'm sure of it. We've better things to do.

[Wind_Borne]

In the name of avoiding Rule Creep, I hope we can avoid adding new sound control regulations.

I advocate self organizing systems -- the notion that organisms, such as BRC, naturally structure themselves. Given enough time, 24 hour ravers would congregate with other ravers, acoustic musicians would find their cohorts, and so on. But since BRC lives for just a few days each year, any self-organization needs a little head start, a framework.

Such a framework could be created by declaring and advertising various boroughs across the city, each with a certain character. One borough, call it Techville, could feature 24 hour loud rave music. Another, Harlaam say, might attract jazz, blues, swing. And borough Sausilito might encourage acoustic music with a quiet time between 3:00 AM and 10:00 AM. Such boroughs would be arranged in a continuum that placed the louder boroughs at 2:00 and 10:00 o'clock on the city plan, with the quieter ones towards 6:00 o'clock, or some such arrangement.

This idea may seem like zoning; but I'm trying for something a bit more subtle and inspiring at the same time. By declaring that 3:00 o'clock is jazz central, I know where to set up my blues camp or where to go to for some be-bop. Such a scheme both draws people of like interest together, and tells others where to find the music that suits there mood or where to camp. It's more inspiration than enforcement oriented.

[Badger]

Ideally that might work.

Really? I doubt it. There are way, WAY too many variable to come into play when people pick a location and then set up camp. Adhering to some informal code of any type is just one of those things that damn near run counter to the ethos of the event. If you think about it the suggestion sounds almost as if I/we/you'd hope that camps would ghettoize(is that a word?) ideally for their own convienience but actually for the convienience of others. I just don't see it happening and I'm not sure I'd like to.

[Wind_Borne]

Ideally that might work.

Really? I doubt it.

LOL. But what do you really think, Badger?

Music ghettos - bad!
More rules - worse!

I was just brainstorming a way to increase music diversity without rules or enforcement. To me, the less formal the method, and the more spontaneous the result, the better.

A friend of mine calls techno the Burning Man soundtrack. The first year I was at the burn I rode my bike a couple miles past the trash fence just to take in the city from a distance. Three miles from the nearest camp I could hear the techno thump in the wind -- I loved it. Two years ago I danced 'till sunrise at the Church of Funk -- I loved that, too. Last year I had a tough time finding anything but techno to listen to -- I hated that. The burn wouldn't be the burn without techno; but a variety is refreshing and invigorating!

I have camped on the perimeter, in Hushville, and in Disturbia adjacent to a 24 hour dance camp. The constant rocking imparted to by VW camper by the bass amps yielded some unexpeced amusement, but little sleep (thank God for ANR headsets for what sleep I did get). Still, that was one hell of a fun burn! Perhaps there is something to be said for sleep deprivation!

[Rob the Wop]

The burn wouldn't be the burn without techno; but a variety is refreshing and invigorating!

Tell the true veterans that- the ones from the first desert burns- and you would get a totally different story.

The #1 reason I orginally stopped going to Burning Man was from sleep depravation. When I was addicted to meth a long time ago, I could feel my mind unravel during long periods of "tweaking". I am a very light sleeper. When I start to get loopy because I can't sleep, I leave.

The #1 cause of the bass that I could not escape was from techno camps.

I had some doctor friends give me a tip on how they sedate "antsy" patients at the state mental hospital. Benedryl. Take two and it will knock you the hell out. I should have thought of it myslef, come to think about it- that stuff always drops me when I take it for allergies. My bad was that I took some with me last year, then I find out it was the "daytime" type. Absolutely fucking useless.

But the question remains, why the hell should I have to seriously sedate myself just to get sleep? I know I'm not alone in this- there has always been a backlash to overbearing music on the playa. Hence the failed experiments in a quiet and a noisy side. Ravers tend to set up where-the-hell-ever and pound out noise.

This next year I'm coming in spectator mode. Camping out on the outer perimeter with just my gear, like I did my first year in 97. No more spending weeks or months building funky stuff for the masses, as I then have to camp inwards and suffer loss of sleep.

Alright, rant over. Burning Man is a rave and I'm an old man shaking his cane at the young whippersnappers.

[P-Mobius]

2 thangs are getting a little creaky round here
one is the bman event itself and all the rules, expectations, codes, and customs emergent in the subculture
the other is each one of us---perhaps not quite in your early 20s anymore, not as much energy, slowing down, yearning for quiet.

i went to bman this year after a 4 year hiatus and honestly i thought that the sonic vibe was a bit weak and underamped from what i remembered.
part of my old bliss was the inundation in an electronic swamp no matter where i went and its cumulative effects over several days was quite euphoric and bizarre

hey im a big fan of acoustic music but between the multi dozen groovefests one can go to anywhere throughout the westcoast (oregon country fair, reggae on the river, high sierra, strawberry, any afternoon on haight street, etc etc) or anywhere else in northamerica, dont we have enough forums for strumming poetic and unplugged?

i for one come to blast off and the sonic boom sure is a big part of it.
seems like the zoning for big soundsystems worked enough. and it seems like bman organizers have their act together to keep the best zoning configuration intact or modified.

as for sleep and sound--sleep is a bit low down on the list of priorities at bman for me---hopefully for you too---we all may need a little but if you need more...
well earplugs combined with industrial earmuffs together do the job right in a tent--if you got an RV even easier

as for djs sounding too predictable---perhaps? but how many kick ass set ups do you need
all you need is one theme camp with the right combo of tunes and spinners that you jive with and youre set for the event.

thats what i got to say on sound

[Flon]

part of my old bliss was the inundation in an electronic swamp no matter where i went and its cumulative effects over several days was quite euphoric and bizarre

So for you BM *IS* a big rave. That's fine - for you. However, for many participants (and from anecdotal, totally unscientific personal sampling, I would say a large majority) this is not the experience that they are seeking, and from the comments I hear from the BMORG, it doesn't seem to be the image that they want to project either.

I have no wish to shut down the rave camps - I've on occasion, had some good times at them, but I want other musical/sonic experiences too. Sleep deprivation is not a big problem for me (I once fell soundly asleep with my head nestled under the timpani during a rehearsal of Tchaikovsky’s "Romeo and Juliet".) What is a big problem is that overamped systems create artistic dead zones for a radius around them where there is no chance for the reasonably clean sonic canvas needed for other types of music or sonic art. At its worst, these zones overlap until huge areas are unfit for any sound not shouted at the top of your lungs or amped up to 10.

hey im a big fan of acoustic music but between the multi dozen groovefests one can go to anywhere throughout the westcoast (oregon country fair, reggae on the river, high sierra, strawberry, any afternoon on haight street, etc etc) or anywhere else in northamerica, dont we have enough forums for strumming poetic and unplugged?

Ironic - I've always thought it strange that people would go to such trouble and expense to try to recreate on the playa what is available probably everyday at numerous raves and electronic music clubs.

Now, if you were doing something unique to the event and environment, that would be different. Say samples of desert sounds set with a live drummer doing rhythms based on the astronomical cycles out there.

...but how many kick ass set ups do you need
all you need is one theme camp with the right combo of tunes and spinners that you jive with and youre set for the event.

Exactly! A few lssa installations - set proportionally far enough away based on their volume levels, would meet this need in the community without making other sound art difficult or impossible.

Enough reaction - what would I do about it? That's very hard to say as I am totally ignorant of the difficulties faced by the organization in implementing these kind of things. I think the zoning has helped and I think dB restrictions would help more. Ideally it would lead to innovative ways to baffle sound in these installations so that the people who choose it can experience the ear-rending effect intended without subjecting everyone within a 1/2 mile radius to the same effect. A way to encourage performances might be to establish neighborhood cafes. Similar to central cafe with a performance area, comfortable surroundings and shade, but on a much smaller scale with no coffee sales. Ideally managed they could work as community meeting areas as well as performance spaces and take some pressure off of central camp which often felt overcrowded and frantic. The down side would be the expense and trouble of creating more infrastructure and a small compromise in the "radical self-sufficiency" aspect of the BM ethos, but anything the BMORG does is a compromise in this, and compromising in the right areas might set up the framework to create the community you desire.

[Rob the Wop]

as for sleep and sound--sleep is a bit low down on the list of priorities at bman for me---hopefully for you too---we all may need a little but if you need more...
well earplugs combined with industrial earmuffs together do the job right in a tent--if you got an RV even easier

How Burning Man of you. Thanks.
I also think that Burning Man should just be an RV park combined with a rave. It's nice to see that the newer generation is more interested in art than drugs and sleep deprivation. Maybe one solution would be to ban art and anyone over 30. PLUR dude.

[theCryptofishist]

as for sleep and sound--sleep is a bit low down on the list of priorities at bman for me---hopefully for you too

May I remind you that sleep deprivation is a form of torture--and an effective brain washing technique.

[DVD Burner]

So let me get this straight.........Some of you go to Burningman to sleep?

I missed something here,

I thought this thread was "Encouraging acoustic music and diversity in BRC "?

sounds pretty diverse to me.

I have'nt (as many know here already) gone in awhile but how many sound systems were at the event in recent years? I was thinking of some kind of compromise for the Dj's, but I dont want to give my opinion about something I lack knowledge in the area about.

(ok I left an open door there. I can see it comming)

really though....how many big sound systems are there on average?

[Rob the Wop]

really though....how many big sound systems are there on average?

The REAL question is how many licks does it take to get to the Tootsie Roll center of my testicles?
No really, keep trying- I PROMISE you'll get to it eventually...
(Actually that wasn't a slam on you there, Evil Rob popped the phrase into my head immediately after reading your above phrase. I thought it was funny in a self-amusing type of way, so I thought I'd work it into the conversation.)

Anyways, to get back to the REAL question- is that it's immaterial. The question is better fitted by questioning the volumne and sound radius. As an example, when I was arguing a point on the old Eplaya- a raver type told me that she would deliberately crank up their system to the point that they could hear it clearly over half the span of Burning Man. And that this was cool.

Over-riding all music around you is interefering with another's experience. Same with playing all-night so loud that the >5% dancing is keeping 80% from sleeping in the early morning hours. I could devise an air-powered whistle, at nausea enducing low frequenices, capable of producing volumnes louder than possible with speakers. So why wouldn't this be cool? What differentiates a deliberate attempt at screwing up everyone else'e experience and ignoring other's complaints in order to make a smaller group of people happy? Either choice would render Burning Man a failed social experiment.

[DVD Burner]

I understand what you are saying Rob, but there is a consensus reached on this thread already about decibel limits, correct? I was trying to imagine where the sound systems were and how many to figure where an acoustic camp would be placed or how that all will work.

Does that make any sense?

[Rob the Wop]

I understand what you are saying Rob, but there is a consensus reached on this thread already about decibel limits, correct? I was trying to imagine where the sound systems were and how many to figure where an acoustic camp would be placed or how that all will work.

Does that make any sense?

As far as I could tell, unless you were in the large scale sound area- you would be hard pressed to find out exactly which camps will be pushing the limits beforehand. Meaning that unless BM specifically designates an acoutic area- you are SOL.

I guess to answer your question- amplified sound systems are everywhere nowadays.

[theCryptofishist]

fluffy soundproofing

I went to high school with her.

[stuart]

what would I do about it?

this sounds hypothetical. My question is, what are YOU going to do about it?

and, can someone define for me exactly what it is they mean when they say 'rave camp'?

[III]

>>exactly what it is they mean when they say 'rave camp'?

for me, it's any camp whose primary purpose seems to be playing music with a strong bass beat at a volume level prohibiting normal levels of conversation within, say, 100 feet of the camp. and audible for much greater distances than that. i'd say anything exhibiting over 100 db spl at 10 ft from the sound source, maybe?

[Jordan 10-E]

I want to start off by saying that there should be no reason anyone complains about not getting sleep. I have written about this in a previous thread. There are PLENTY of areas at Burning Man in which to escape the sound emitted by loud rave camps on the end, or even the Esplanade for that matter. If sleep is that critical to you and earplugs just don't seem to do the job for you the option to camp a little further back or closer to Center Camp is there. I read all these people saying stop LSSA, have only one LSSA camp, etc... Personally I find these suggestions completely overboard and unnecessary. I challenge anyone to go toward the outer streets or closer to Center Camp and tell me it is not possible to find quiet enough areas to sleep. In the late night/early morning you can't even hear music playing in those areas from the LSSA camps! It really bothers me when people distort the truth of how it really is. If you are looking to have it so quiet that you can hear a pin drop then maybe you shouldn't go to Burning Man. Burning Man is loud and always will be. If we start trying to get rid of loud music then we should get rid of many mutant vehicles, bullhorns, people talking loud, etc... There does not need to be anymore rules.

As for a acoustic area I think that is a great idea. It could be up towards the end but not right in the LSSA area. I don't see the two clashing if there is even two blocks between them.

On this note, I want to say outright that I am the primary coordinator for a "techno" camp. It will be our third year on the playa. We are not the biggest or the loudest, but it is true we are growing. So is our soundsystem. But we are not interested in dominating the whole playa, yet we don't see a problem with playing loud down on the end. Last year we were in a gray area because we got placement on the Esplanade (for various reasons). We played until about 4 in the morning. Still it wasn't massive. This year we will be back on the end, with a much more significant set of structures and art installations, and a bigger soundsystem. We are concious of the issues involved here, but to label us as uncaring or not art minded or playing simplistic music or any of that is offending. We work hard to be as visually exciting (and I don't just mean lights, but that is part of it), have significant art installations, activities during the day that are not necessarily music related, etc... You should come check it out. Our camp is called Euphoria.

But back to the subject at hand. Acoustic music can be encouraged more. I am all for it and it might be a good idea to find a particular area to concentrate it. I just don't like when I see people use discussions like this to sidetrack and start saying comments like DJ's aren't musicians, electronic music is talentless, ravers don't care about anyone but themselves, ravers aren't there for art, etc... To me these are rude and misinformed statements. Period. Yes there are some DJ's that aren't as good as others out there (we are not in that category btw), but there are people that don't paint as well as others or sing as well or dress as cool or decorate their camp as elaborately or whatever... last time I checked Burning Man was about giving opportunity to all kinds of art and levels of skill or "talent". If you don't like what you hear move on somewhere else. Nobody is forcing you to listen. You might have to pass by and hear it for a minute or two, but is this really so terrible that you have to have your night ruined? If so... well I don't know what to say about that.

[III]

>>tell me it is not possible to find quiet enough areas to sleep.

i'm sure it is. i think the point is that it would be (a) nice to do that without having to trial and error yourself based on rave camps who decide that it's okay to pump their tunes until 4:00 am even though they're not in the lssa area, and (b) also nice to be able to have a theme camp that's nice and quiet and peaceful on the esplanade, rather than being relegated to the back 40.

i'm quite sure i'm not alone in this. why else do you think the lssa area is as far as way as fucking possible from first camp?

[stuart]

4:00 am?! what kind of whimpy rave camp shuts down at 4:00 am?

[III]

QED?

[Jordan 10-E]

>>tell me it is not possible to find quiet enough areas to sleep.

i'm sure it is. i think the point is that it would be (a) nice to do that without having to trial and error yourself based on rave camps who decide that it's okay to pump their tunes until 4:00 am even though they're not in the lssa area, and (b) also nice to be able to have a theme camp that's nice and quiet and peaceful on the esplanade, rather than being relegated to the back 40.

i'm quite sure i'm not alone in this. why else do you think the lssa area is as far as way as fucking possible from first camp?

First of all this trial and error you mention can be easily solved by Greeters educating participants when entering the event as to areas they might consider camping in. In addition to this, anyone that has already been to the event should already be aware of these concerns and can take responsibility for themselves. This helps avoid that accidental setting up that you are referring to.

Second of all, our sound was not that large last year and compared to other camps around us you couldn't even really hear our music even less than one camp away in any direction. Most of the sound around us was not even necessarily music, but other sources of sound like video projection, loud crowds, etc. We were not hurting anyone, nor any different than the other thousands of people surrounding us.

As for quiet areas on the Esplanade, which is promoted as a 24 hour interactivity area, I think that's ok and possible. However, on the other hand I think that music or not 24 hour interactivity implies some noise, including loud rambunctious crowds. What about the drum circles that play late into the night around Center Camp? What about roaming mutant vehicles that drive up and down the Esplanade making noise? What about people with those bullhorns. Someone even had the audacity to use one near our camp when all was quiet on morning. Can you believe some people? I almost decided to go home. This standard of complete quiet is an illusion. If you have a killer theme camp that should be up on the Esplanade and is interactive according to the placement guidelines then there will be plenty of noise around you late into the night. Should we ban people from cruising certain parts of the Esplanade (like near Center Camp) after a certain time at night? Should we put rangers and police, armed with decibel readers, in the areas to enforce this quiet zone? I really think you are going overbaord. I said it before and I will say it again, if sleep is your number one concern and you know it is impossible to sleep where there is going to be noise (regardless of it being music or other) then you can take responsibilty for yourself and move back just a little. I don't see how that is hurting anyone. What I do see as hurting people or challenging the nature of the event itself is people trying to dictate everything to everyone else. Maybe we should institute a curfew.

As for us closing down at 4 am, it wasn't a universal rule for us, however we still considered those around us. Fact is this year we will be in the area designated for louder systems (which we will have this year) and will go even after the sun is coming up. And all of you that are so concerned about your sleep can be somewhere in the 60% of BRC that is quiet at that time. You get what you want and we get what we want and no one is hurt in the process.

One other thing, it seems that at least a 3rd to 1/2 of BRC citizens are still jamming out at the LSSA camps long into the morning. They aren't hurting anyone or out running around complaining that the rest are being too quiet and boring.

Lighten up. Take responsibility for yourself.

[ramen]

My experience is there is nowhere to escape the thump-thump of subsonic bass pulses.

I've camped way out in walk-in camping and still feel it in my body. I don't think I'm overly sensitive, but the sonic aspects of BM are one of the survival challenges.

I've never left there without going somewhere and immediately falling into a deep sleep. Luckily not while still driving.

[Jordan 10-E]

Sound is and always will be a fundamental part of the Burning Man experience.

Back to the topic. I think it would be great to see more bands and acoustic artists. This was one of our ideas last year but we didn't have enough response. As was mentioned before, one difficulty with bands and the like is the need to protect their equipment. Another issue is the other gear needed like mixing boards. Plus taking care of their amplifiers. Even "acoustic bands" need amplification.

I remember my first year I was walking back to my camp after being out all night and there was this lone guy sitting out in front of his camp on the Esplanade jamming tunes on his guitar through a little amp. It was really cool. I gave him a nod of my head, a smile, and said "right on".

Peace

[DVD Burner]

thanx Jordan for drifting the thread back on topic. Twice in fact. cool.

so what's the deal with the acoustic music and where will it be?

[Jordan 10-E]

If any acoustic artists are interested in possibly performing in our space and have all theie necessary equipment, other than our soundsystem we will be happy to try and make some arrangements.

[III]

>>Sound is and always will be a fundamental part of the Burning Man experience.


they used to say that about guns, fast cars, and tons of individual fires on the playa as well.

[Rob the Wop]

And all of you that are so concerned about your sleep can be somewhere in the 60% of BRC that is quiet at that time. You get what you want and we get what we want and no one is hurt in the process.

One other thing, it seems that at least a 3rd to 1/2 of BRC citizens are still jamming out at the LSSA camps long into the morning. They aren't hurting anyone or out running around complaining that the rest are being too quiet and boring.

Lighten up. Take responsibility for yourself.

Let me start up with a single word- BULLSHIT. There are not 10,000 to 15,000 people at the LSSA areas til' early morning. Never in the 5 years I've been to Burning Man has there been anywhere near that number in the rave camps at 2am.

I would LOVE to escape the constant THUD THUD THUD. This year was better than past, I'll admit. In 99', there was no place on the esplanade to escape the constant bass. So if you had a cool theme camp that you spent months designing- you couldn't sleep with your camp. How fair is that?

Bullshit round two. The rave camps used to be far away from the rest of Burning Man. The BMORG created the LSSA zones. They also had to put a dB cap on camps not in the LSSA zones. Is this because the majority of BM folks love to stay up all night listening to techno? Hell no. The majority complained that the constant pounding is overwhelming- so much so that RULES had to be created (amazing in such an anarchist event- dontchathink?).

The rules sound great to me, and your rhetoric sounds like the same I here from DJs/ravers all the time. In which you assert the following:
1) The majority of Burning Man are ravers/techno/whatever
2) People shouldn't sleep at Burning Man
3) Loud bass can't be heard a block away

Congradulations. You win. Next year I already decided to camp out in the middle of BFE on the edge of Burning Man. Meaning I won't be part of a theme camp as I wouldn't be able to sleep on the Esplanade. Just one more spectator instead of what I usually do. I know of at least 30 artists that refuse to go anymore as they see the event as simply a rave. They used to bring really cool camps and art to the playa. I noticed far less art and fully developed theme camps than prior to 2000.

It good to know that instead of trying to get these people back by giving them a break from your bass, you would rather they came as spectators out in the boonies. They obviously don't deserve the chance to shine if they can't dance to your music.

[DVD Burner]

there's gotta be a solution. I myself would love to see some acoustic music.
musicians need to play man. I know. I'm one.

Jordan came with a nice suggestion. I know ther is a db limit. was it in place last year?

[Jordan 10-E]

And all of you that are so concerned about your sleep can be somewhere in the 60% of BRC that is quiet at that time. You get what you want and we get what we want and no one is hurt in the process.

One other thing, it seems that at least a 3rd to 1/2 of BRC citizens are still jamming out at the LSSA camps long into the morning. They aren't hurting anyone or out running around complaining that the rest are being too quiet and boring.

Lighten up. Take responsibility for yourself.

Let me start up with a single word- BULLSHIT. There are not 10,000 to 15,000 people at the LSSA areas til' early morning. Never in the 5 years I've been to Burning Man has there been anywhere near that number in the rave camps at 2am.

I would LOVE to escape the constant THUD THUD THUD. This year was better than past, I'll admit. In 99', there was no place on the esplanade to escape the constant bass. So if you had a cool theme camp that you spent months designing- you couldn't sleep with your camp. How fair is that?

Bullshit round two. The rave camps used to be far away from the rest of Burning Man. The BMORG created the LSSA zones. They also had to put a dB cap on camps not in the LSSA zones. Is this because the majority of BM folks love to stay up all night listening to techno? Hell no. The majority complained that the constant pounding is overwhelming- so much so that RULES had to be created (amazing in such an anarchist event- dontchathink?).

The rules sound great to me, and your rhetoric sounds like the same I here from DJs/ravers all the time. In which you assert the following:
1) The majority of Burning Man are ravers/techno/whatever
2) People shouldn't sleep at Burning Man
3) Loud bass can't be heard a block away

Congradulations. You win. Next year I already decided to camp out in the middle of BFE on the edge of Burning Man. Meaning I won't be part of a theme camp as I wouldn't be able to sleep on the Esplanade. Just one more spectator instead of what I usually do. I know of at least 30 artists that refuse to go anymore as they see the event as simply a rave. They used to bring really cool camps and art to the playa. I noticed far less art and fully developed theme camps than prior to 2000.

It good to know that instead of trying to get these people back by giving them a break from your bass, you would rather they came as spectators out in the boonies. They obviously don't deserve the chance to shine if they can't dance to your music.

Sorry you are so defensive. I still think you overestimate things. Plus you haven't denied that there will always be noise, because you can't. Even if we have all these authoritarian rules you wish were in place and banned all music that was loud (because we wouldn't want to discriminate here now would we?) at night there would still be the loud people, the drummers, the bullhorns, the very loud art cars, the loud fireballs, etc...

Additionally, you haven't addressed the issue of Esplanade camps being 24 HOUR interactive. This means noise, music or not. Your tent walls will still be as thin as they were before. If you want to set up your theme camp on the Esplanade there will be noise. What makes someone yelling any less disturbing to sleep than music? To argue that music is the downfall of art is absurd. I see no dearth of art in BRC. If they want to display their art on the Esplanade they have to accept that there will be noise. I am not saying all the LSSA camps should be on the Esplanade, what I am saying is THERE WILL BE LOUD NOISE.

As for the rules that were put into place about LSSA camps, I agree with them. I know that in the past rave-type camps were anywhere and I can easily see how this could ultimately be a problem, however, with the zoning in place I don't see why you have to complain so much. Just camp down toward Center Camp and you should be just fine.

Saying I don't think people should sleep at Burning Man is just dumb. I sleep late into the morning and have no problem. Lot's of noise during the day. I have slept through howling wind, loud PA with people doing oratory, and a hundred other things. You don't see me out there telling people to be quiet. I don't expect Burning Man to be quiet. Maybe you do, but I don't.

I never said loud bass can't be heard a block away. I said ours last year you couldn't, mainly because every other noise at Burning Man drown it out.

I never said the majority of people at Burning Man are "ravers". I did say a huge part of the population are to be found at the dance camps. As for that being at 2 am, I never indicated what time. Actually I was thinking of in the morning. Ironically there are more people in those areas when the sun is coming up than earlier in the night. One reason for this would be that the rest of the city gets quiet, very quiet (relatively speaking) as the night goes on. Those that want to stay up go where the action is. Others are out walking the silent streets. So silent you can here people rustling in their tents. As for whether these people are ravers or not I would contend it includes all kinds of people. I have often wondered how people could tell who was a "raver" and who wasn't when walking around the city. Is it that person with the funny outfit?

As for your artist friends, I would bet you that there are far more reasons that they no longer continue to attend than just because they think it is a "big rave". That is such a cop out excuse.

Maybe we should all get together on the playa and walk some of the streets in the late night/morning and really see how terribly loud it is. It's not.

[Jordan 10-E]

I am not here to argue or to justify the actions of all. I think compromise is important, but I think zoning has already done much to accomodate that.

As for the issue of whether we are artless, uncaring people I invite one and all to our camp to see our structures and our large scale art works. Maybe you will be interested in the hula hooping crafting, practicing, and gathering we will be hosting. Maybe you will be interested in participating in our crystal workshops or in our yoga and meditation sessions. Maybe you will check out our stop theft booth. Maybe you will get to see belly dancers and fire spinners doing their thing. Maybe you might even see an acoustic performance in the afternoon or evenings. And if you are up to it, you can dance the night away with our DJ's and performing electronic musicians. Hopefully we can be as diverse as the people that make up our camp.