What's a Palin

[littleflower]

If you find poverty so comfortable, the door's always open.

to be perfectly honest, the door to poverty is not open to me because i have something called family ... and they will be there unless i become incredibly stupid and/or reckless. but i also have a certain amount of pride in myself, and do not want to be a burden to anyone, including government.

i do not disagree with most of your post. but i do not have the solutions to these problems, and neither do you. you point them out, and the answer is always "more money" ... but it is never enough. it never will be, either.

[gyre]

Part of my point is that the money will be spent one way or another for most things.

People unable to get health screenings get expensive diseases, and then the decision is whether they die without treatment or get late treatment.
Both options have higher costs than routine health care.

Check out the micro loan programs which give the lie to the mythology of credit and poverty.

[littleflower]

Part of my point is that the money will be spent one way or another for most things.

are you suggesting that government should spend our tax money wisely? wouldn't that be lovely!

[gyre]

Wiser anyway.

Most of it just takes some thought about long term costs of not doing things.
What if even the 50% tax rate in some countries turns out to be a bargain?

[littleflower]

Wiser anyway.

Most of it just takes some thought about long term costs of not doing things.
What if even the 50% tax rate in some countries turns out to be a bargain?

have you ever considered running for office? you could clean up congress... i'll vote for you ...

but 50% tax rate ... do you think everyone could agree on this? 50% tax rate for whom? bargain for whom? i really don't think it's so simple ... good intentions usually have unforeseen consequences ...

[gyre]

I don't like the sound of 50% but some places live with it and are happy.
Maybe a higher number engages the public?

We have a 10% sales tax here, including food.
That works out to a very regressive rate on top of what poor people pay already

The 50% tax rates always include health care and some other expenses carried personally elsewhere, with income most have already paid taxes on.

[Elderberry]

I'm for no income tax. Consumption tax only with exemption under certain income level.

JK

[ygmir]

I think I could go with that........please elucidate.........

[littleflower]

I'm for no income tax. Consumption tax only with exemption under certain income level.

JK

i don't know ... how much consumption would equal the income tax from one a-list movie star, or sport star, or CEO? consumption taxes would have to be at a flat rate...

[ygmir]

the dirty little secret is that there are more "joe sixpacks" than a list movie stars, a lot more. And, that's where the money lies...........
as example only, but, a dollar from everyone buying beer is more than taking all the money the movie stars have.........
I may be exaggerating there, but, the point, and government knows it, is, if you take a little from everyone, it's more money and less pain than unevenly setting up rules..........Government just uses tax code for social experimentation, wealth distribution, and favoritism on all levels........

some sort of flat rate, to me, is the best...........and no, I'm not rich.......
Consumption tax, if I understand it, is perfect in that you can't really lie, you just pay it when you buy something...........no loopholes.......

if I understand it, that is......

[littleflower]

i know some people who make an awful lot of money ... and don't spend it... it kinda hurts to think i would pay more in tax than they would...

i think a progressive tax is best. right now we get hit many different ways ... income, property, consumption ..... it's crazy. in some states, people do pay 50% tax ... or close to it ...

[Elderberry]

Income tax is a relatively new concept--just started around 1913 or so. Consumption tax makes sense in many ways, including incouraging people to save as opposed to spend.

JK

[lurker]

jkisha wrote:
Not to mention that the figures just came out for infant mortality world wide and The GREAT United States of America with the BEST and MOST EXPENSIVE health care money can buy has ranked 29th!!!! Far below all of those countries with the "inferior" national health care plans. BTW Infant Mortality rate is one of the main criteria of rating a countrie's health care system.

I think Obama has it right, so was Hillary when Clinton was president. The time is right and the time is now. Go Obama.

JK

it would be interesting to see how the infant mortality rate breaks down.....
I could see a lot of infant mortality related to substance abuse, I also wonder if it includes, possibly, "illegals" that are fearful of going to get help for their babies, and, that may say more about our social system than health care.....but, if it's pinned on health care, it might look worse than it is

Wanna know how it breaks down? It breaks down on the definition of 'infant'. Or perhaps 'live birth'.

The US considers many births viable that are called 'miscarriages' in the rest of the world. Care costs for premature infants are incredibly high. Most nations simply don't provide them. In the US we try to save even the most premature of preemies--if they come out of the mother alive--they're live births--even at ridiculously low gestation times.

The miracle is that we DO keep some of these children alive--the sadness is that we are penalized for even attmpting this by people whothink it's okay to let babies gasp out the few unassisted breaths they have in them and then list them as miscarriages.

Hippocrates said 'Do no harm--he didn't say 'do nothing'

Most medical stats in the US suffer because we expect miracles, heroics--and we do this because we often GET miracles and heroics. We spare no expense trying to save peoples lives, trying to keep people alive.

But it's easier to bash--after all, the socialized medicine countries are doing SO much better.

[ygmir]

I think a lot of what you say there rings a bell for me.
I'd say most of the rest of the world is much more "spartan" in it's healthcare.......not wasting time and money on issues that can't be helped.....

I don't advocate letting people die, don't get me wrong. I'm saying, though, that in the "lost cause" scenario, others just let them go, we spend enormous time and energy.

If paid for with insurance, or privately, again, no problem. but, when people want public financing for these measures, I still think it goes to far.......mostly.

most countries with working (?) socialized medical systems are very small, mostly mono-chromatic, highly educated, and pretty nationalistic.
Just my observations, but, I think accurate.

[lurker]

Ygmir, when push comes to shove, most doctors just do it--they don't think about things like insurance, or who's paying--they just work.

What a lot of people don't understand is that with public financing, doctors won't be able to do that. The government is not known for efficiency in it's public endeavors--imagine a DMV style line at an ER. They're bad enough as it is--put government in charge and who knows what could happen.

And anyone who's familiar with the various government based charities can tell you all about the sprrd and accuracy with which the government works.

I used to get dunning letters and threatening phone calls from the Child Support Enforcement Agency--though I had custody(which is a matter of record). Even after telling them this and faxing them the papers, I still got calls and letters. I eventually went down to the office, with my child, the paperwork, and all their letters. I explained that it was my ex who was not paying, as custodial parent, there's no way for me to pay myself child support. A nice laugh was had by all, apologies were handed round. And for two months I got no letters or phone calls(and no child support). And then, just when I thought it had gotten through, I got another letter--from one of the people who I'd laughed with in the office.

Do you want these people in charge of your healthcare?

[Elderberry]

Every human life is not equal.

I would rather have a government sponsored health care system that provided basic health care for everyone.

This in no way precludes better care for those with insurance or that can afford it privately.

Seems the perfect balance to me--and 'humanitarian' to boot.

JK

[Dr. Pyro]

What's the difference between Sarah Palin's mouth and vagina?

Not everything that comes out of her vagina is retarded.

[Elderberry]

What's the difference between Sarah Palin's mouth and vagina?

Not everything that comes out of her vagina is retarded.

LOL ya, but it's just as vile I'll bet.

JK

[lurker]

Every human life is not equal.

Wow. "You're only an epsilon, we've got lots of epsilons, just drink this and get out of the way of citizens who are more equal than you"(a Brave New World/Half Past Human/Godwhale mash-up)

How disgusting.

I would rather have a government sponsored health care system that provided basic health care for everyone.

This in no way precludes better care for those with insurance or that can afford it privately.

Seems the perfect balance to me--and 'humanitarian' to boot.

Sure, unless you can't afford it. Then you get to die. Hurray!

I would rather have privately funded care that occasionally has to take a loss to keep a person alive--because every human life is valued just as preciously to it's owner as your own, jkisha.

And, Dr Pyro, you look older than 11--maybe you got dropped on your head a lot? Or is it just that you can think of nothing to say that's actual argument and have to resort to this type of thing to showcase your ability to type?

[Elderberry]

Hit a nerve, did I? Hey face it, what I said is true. It's just not that easy to accept. There are people that just leech of society and therr are people that contribute greatly to society and there are those somewhere in-between. Their worth is not the same. Period.

Now, re-read what I said. I think that there should be an adequate level of health care for everyone; this is more than most have now; and it would be provided free.

But, as all people are not equal, measured by what they are able to afford, (isn't this how the game is scored?) they can go ahead and buy any amount and type of extroardinary care they can ever imagine.

It is wasteful to spend 1/2 million dollars to keep a crack baby alive to go back and live with it's crack whore mother.

Wake up and face reality.

JK

[ygmir]

as I understand it, hospital charters require they treat patients, regardless of ability to pay.
and, I've been told that emergency rooms are full of people with no insurance, or welfare, or ability to pay, sitting there because they have a cold.
Why I point that out, is, it seems to me, a basic level of healthcare is now available to everyone, they just have to walk in....maybe they don't know that, but, it seems the case..........

I'm not commenting on the level of said basic care, I'm sure that's debatable and varies with community, but, I do think it exists.......

I just have a basic mis trust of government, and, their ability to handle anything..........

I'd rather less taxes, and more money to buy my own insurance.......and, basic care for those who can't.....or won't......provide for themselves......

[lurker]

Hit a nerve, did I? Hey face it, what I said is true. It's just not that easy to accept. There are people that just leech of society and therr are people that contribute greatly to society and there are those somewhere in-between. Their worth is not the same. Period.

You don't like the leeches? Don't vote Democrat. They seem really big on opening your veins to any leech that happens by--particularly if they can get a vote out of it.

I find it sick that you think it's perfectly all right to use the medical profession as an experiment in social Darwinism.

My life should not be measured by my 'worth' to the State--no one's should. But you think it's fine for the state to decide that this or that person serves no further use--and you do so happily. What happens when the State decides that YOU are no longer an asset?

You're far too willing to cede enormous power to the government.

Now, re-read what I said. I think that there should be an adequate level of health care for everyone; this is more than most have now; and it would be provided free.

You have no idea what's provided now. You mouth lefty talking points. EVERYONE has access to care, right now, regardless of ability to pay--everyone. I've worked in the field--I've actually found funding--from private sources--to cover people who couldn't afford the major surgeries they needed. And I found it--always.

And it's NEVER 'free', jkisha, there's always a cost--unless the 'adequate care' you talk about is telling people to go home and die because they're drains on the State.

But, as all people are not equal, measured by what they are able to afford, (isn't this how the game is scored?) they can go ahead and buy any amount and type of extroardinary care they can ever imagine.

It is wasteful to spend 1/2 million dollars to keep a crack baby alive to go back and live with it's crack whore mother.

Wake up and face reality.

I thought it was conservatives who had no hearts.

[Elderberry]

as I understand it, hospital charters require they treat patients, regardless of ability to pay.
and, I've been told that emergency rooms are full of people with no insurance, or welfare, or ability to pay, sitting there because they have a cold.
Why I point that out, is, it seems to me, a basic level of healthcare is now available to everyone, they just have to walk in....maybe they don't know that, but, it seems the case..........

I'm not commenting on the level of said basic care, I'm sure that's debatable and varies with community, but, I do think it exists.......

I just have a basic mis trust of government, and, their ability to handle anything..........

I'd rather less taxes, and more money to buy my own insurance.......and, basic care for those who can't.....or won't......provide for themselves......

The County Hospital in LA is one of the best in the world. And for gun shot wounds, they are absolutely the best! But if you go to the emergency room, you better bring a lunch, and dinner and breakfast if you have a non-emergency health issue. This is not my idea of good basic health care.

Part of the problem is that this is the major health source for illegals, but that's another topic.

I define good basic health care much like you probably already have with your HMO or other private insurance. You have your own doctor, make appointments, receive treatment, have hospital admittance for major problems, etc. Just no extraordinary care. I have a definition for that too; but not here.

I'm all for less taxes and private health care too, but I don't think it has to be one or the other. I think we can and should have both.

JK

[Elderberry]

You don't like the leeches? Don't vote Democrat.

So not true.

I find it sick that you think it's perfectly all right to use the medical profession as an experiment in social Darwinism.

My life should not be measured by my 'worth' to the State--no one's should. But you think it's fine for the state to decide that this or that person serves no further use--and you do so happily. What happens when the State decides that YOU are no longer an asset?

When I decide that I am no longer an asset to myself and my family, I will take the proper steps to eliminate me.

No, your life should be measured by yourself, unfortunately most people are not objective enough to do this--we all tend to think we are worth a whole lot more than we really are. And it is a fact that the more stupid you are the more you tend to breed. The more educated you are the more you tend to control the number of children you have. Ironic, no? We'll breed ourselves to mediocraty.

You have no idea what's provided now. You mouth lefty talking points. EVERYONE has access to care, right now, regardless of ability to pay--everyone. I've worked in the field--I've actually found funding--from private sources--to cover people who couldn't afford the major surgeries they needed. And I found it--always.

How dare you presume to know what I know. EVERYONE does not have access to care right now. I've actually been through the system. Once, never again. That's an interesting story too, but for another time.

And I don't do 'talking points'.

And it's NEVER 'free', jkisha, there's always a cost--unless the 'adequate care' you talk about is telling people to go home and die because they're drains on the State.

I've mellowed from that position some.

I thought it was conservatives who had no hearts.

No, conservatives have no franchise on heartlessness.

JK

[Ugly Dougly]

I just don't see why peopole get their knickers knotted when tax comes up in discussion.

Assuming that you believe that we ACTUALLY went to the Moon, how if instead of collecting taxes for this, we let everyone have a little rebate and see how close to the moon each of us got with our share of the money? Probably a boxful of firecrackers each, I'm thinking.

The same with highways. The alternative to pooling resources, might be, here's your personal shovel and sack of concrete. Do your best.

[Elderberry]

I think this is funny:

http://www.palinaspresident.us/

JK

[lurker]

So not true.

We are in the financial position we're in right now because of leeches--the ones that don't work and the ones that rushed to feed on the fountains gushing from the slashes placed on our collective wrists--first with the Community Re-investment Act, later by politicians grown fat on our demise--and they were, by and large, Democrats.

And unless you're blind, Obama's been promising to feed those leeches--and any other ones he can find--ask Joe.

When I decide that I am no longer an asset to myself and my family, I will take the proper steps to eliminate me.

No, jkisha, you handed that power to the state in your last post.

No, your life should be measured by yourself, unfortunately most people are not objective enough to do this--we all tend to think we are worth a whole lot more than we really are. And it is a fact that the more stupid you are the more you tend to breed. The more educated you are the more you tend to control the number of children you have. Ironic, no? We'll breed ourselves to mediocraty.

You do not understand evolution. The sucessful breed--intelligence is only an evolutionary plus indofar as it aids in breeding. Those who refuse their responsibility to future generations are evolutionary failures and will edit themselves out. In terms of the life of the species, those who breed are very valuable.

The human, subjectively, measures him/herself as the center of the universe--and rightly so. When a human dies the universe they inhabited ends, thus making their subjective truth a reality. I value myself very highly and would not give the power of that valuation to any other being. They cannot possibly see how valuable I am better than me--because they would always place themselves above me--and that is patently wrong. But THIS is a different subject.

How dare you presume to know what I know. EVERYONE does not have access to care right now. I've actually been through the system. Once, never again. That's an interesting story too, but for another time.

Tell me the name of a dostor or hospital that will turn away someone in need.

If you had worked in the field you'd know that doesn't happen.

And I don't do 'talking points'.

That is, itself, a 'talking point'. Denying that you parrot the party line is a favored tactic of those who parrot the party line.

I've mellowed from that position some.

What? Since your last post?

No, conservatives have no franchise on heartlessness.

I think you're going over and above in proving that.

[gyre]

I figured out why Palin is his vice president.
He's taking his nurse everywhere with him.

[gyre]

Tell me the name of a dostor or hospital that will turn away someone in need.

If you had worked in the field you'd know that doesn't happen.

Methodist Hospital Central and the Med (hospital of last resort) in Memphis.
And I can cite many more than odd cases.

Funny thing is it can happen to those with insurance as hospitals dumb down to hmo standards.

Nothing could be worse than handing our medical care over to hmos.
How stupid do you have to be to go with someone who bears no responsibility for your care?

[Elderberry]

I think you're going over and above in proving that.

Why thank you.

JK